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Old
06-16-2013, 08:04 AM
  #76
The_Chosen_One
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Kessel's line certainly didn't use a possession style. However, the other lines were atrocious maintaining possession. Grabovski was able to, but he couldn't produce offensively in a shut down role either. The playoffs demonstrated that we need to have stronger secondary/ tertiary lines because the top line did quite fine.

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06-16-2013, 08:07 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
Kessel's line certainly didn't use a possession style. However, the other lines were atrocious maintaining possession. Grabovski was able to, but he couldn't produce offensively in a shut down role either. The playoffs demonstrated that we need to have stronger secondary/ tertiary lines because the top line did quite fine.
Agreed. Just look at PIT (Crosby/Malkin), BOS (Krejci/Bergeron), and CHI (Toews/Kane). You really need to have two legitimate lines that can score.

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06-16-2013, 08:14 AM
  #78
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I think Elliott follows me on twitter!


The mutual interest has been known for quite some time.

Whether or not the Leafs acquire his rights, Nonis will be his first discussion partner come free agency, allegedy.

I also think Bozak is bound for Denver or Detroit. Just my opinion tho.


Last edited by ChuckWoods: 06-16-2013 at 08:20 AM.
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06-16-2013, 08:52 AM
  #79
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only way bozak stays here is for about 3.5 ......i hear hes kessel's best buddy ,,,only way u have bozak and kessel here together .....gotta be around 10 million combined ...
I am not sure they are looking at that much. If you read between the lines there doesn't seem to be much support from the Leafs for TB as the top line center (although could somewhat be a negotiating ploy). He has been a fill in for someone who still hasn't arrived. If he is bottom 6, and not Staal shutdown caliber, you don't pay him $3.5 when you have McClement getting $1.5. I would say $2.5 max for the role because that is the most a 30pt third line guy is worth. From Bozak's perspective, since they have never used him as the third line guy so far, why would he take the low money? I don't think Kessel's love will save him either. I suspect somebody will leak some numbers during the negotiation and we will have a better understanding.

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06-16-2013, 08:58 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by ChuckWoods View Post
I think Elliott follows me on twitter!


The mutual interest has been known for quite some time.

Whether or not the Leafs acquire his rights, Nonis will be his first discussion partner come free agency, allegedy.

I also think Bozak is bound for Denver or Detroit. Just my opinion tho.
I dunno. Colorado has centers coming out the wazzoo. Vancouver, Anaheim or Winnipeg is my guess. Roy won't stay in Van and Kesler is glass, so Boz's "top 6 capability" might take him there. The Ducks need a center who can take faceoffs and isn't tiny like Cogliano. Winnipeg has to work harder to find players that want to stay there so they might be willing to pay a premium others wouldn't. IMO.

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06-16-2013, 09:12 AM
  #81
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Weiss is not the ideal number 1 center for the Leafs with the design to center Kessel, as he doesn't bring any real intangibles or otherwise to balance out the line and compensate for Kessel's shortcomings.

He is not very physical, large nor strong on the puck or cycle. He really wouldn't add much to the Leafs outside of being a more experienced Tyler Bozak.

Kessel is capable of being a PPG with Bozak as his center and Weiss is not likely to alter that much. Weiss may win more face-offs and thus give the Leafs more puck possession time and be able to match up better against other teams opposition centers which might contribute to more team success overall however.

However the key would be $$ and cap here as based on price you have to decide how much of an improvement Weiss is over Bozak.

To me Bozak is a $3.5 mil player and Weiss a $4.5 mil player in comparison, however UFA spending is inflationary by nature so those numbers will be higher as a result to retain\obtain the services of either player. How much more is what Nonis needs to decide on, and which player is the most cap cost effective choice for the services and contribution provided.

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06-16-2013, 09:36 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Rielly4 View Post
Also for those of you who are fully expecting Bozak to be leaving T.O... I really dont think your right, i think theirs a 95 percent chance Bozak resigns, whether its as the 2/3 center job shared with Kadri or the 1st is unknown... All i know is i think Nonis would sooner buyout/trade Grabo and sign Bozak to at least 1 mil less then what Grabo gets to do better in the defensive role if we aqquire the top line center.

I would way rather have Bozak controlling the play of our 3rd line then letting Grabo skate around in circles shooting from bad angles and going -10 in a playoff series, Grabos good but he needs to be playing a pure rush style. Everyone thought Kessel was gonna burn in the Carlyle system, turns out Kessel excelled in the puck possesion offensive zone system because he had played it in Boston and Grabo crashed and burned.
Bozak would be an ideal 3rd line center, he actually has very underrated offensive skills and could be a key player to making our 3rd line score goals plus it would give our 3rd line a great faceoff percentage along with a solid two way centerman who can put up points, isnt that the ideal 3rd line center?? Put him with a gritty forechecking winger like an Ashton/Biggs and with a speedy guy whos good two ways and can produce off the forecheck/cycle... So like D'amigo/Ross. Thats what i see our 3rd line being moving forward, the young marlies.
LOL, Grabo was one of our best possession players in both the reg season and especially the playoffs.

What underrated skills are you talking about? The skills that couldn't allow him to even get 50 points playing with not 1 but 2 PPG players? I'd also hardly consider 52%on faceoffs great it's more above average than anything, Bergeron's 60+% was great. And to top it off, you want to put the guy who struggles to put up points with top line minutes and PPG wingers with 2 wingers who have never played in the NHL and think he'll produce?

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06-16-2013, 09:37 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Weiss is not the ideal number 1 center for the Leafs with the design to center Kessel, as he doesn't bring any real intangibles or otherwise to balance out the line and compensate for Kessel's shortcomings.

He is not very physical, large nor strong on the puck or cycle. He really wouldn't add much to the Leafs outside of being a more experienced Tyler Bozak.

Kessel is capable of being a PPG with Bozak as his center and Weiss is not likely to alter that much. Weiss may win more face-offs and thus give the Leafs more puck possession time and be able to match up better against other teams opposition centers which might contribute to more team success overall however.

However the key would be $$ and cap here as based on price you have to decide how much of an improvement Weiss is over Bozak.

To me Bozak is a $3.5 mil player and Weiss a $4.5 mil player in comparison, however UFA spending is inflationary by nature so those numbers will be higher as a result to retain\obtain the services of either player. How much more is what Nonis needs to decide on, and which player is the most cap cost effective choice for the services and contribution provided.
Both Bozak and Weiss will likely be commanding more than 5mil per year. However, there's no doubt that Weiss will produce well with Kessel and JVR as his linemates. If Bozak couldn't get 50 points while playing with PPG Kessel and Lupul then IMO, he is not our 1C but more suited to 3C.

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06-16-2013, 09:39 AM
  #84
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All I'm saying is that I don't want my team going full bore after a guy who is a 60 pt player, is likely after a big payday, and is not going to be the difference between a first round exit and a Stanley Cup.
It's stuff like this that got us in trouble in the first place.

Of course I'm also a firm believer that Tyler Bozak is extremely underrated on these boards, so take it for what it's worth.

Ideally, Bozie comes in at 3.5/4 per, and if we can get a Weiss for 4.5/5 and find a taker for Grabbo, roll with Bozak Weiss Kadri up the middle were good. I don't see any of the above happening though.
If Bozie was asking for that then he's more than likely already signed and there probably aren't rumors about signing Weiss.

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06-16-2013, 09:44 AM
  #85
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Buyout or trade Grabo
Let MacA and Bozak walk
Sign Weiss
Sign one of Horton, Bickell or Clarkson

Lupul-Kadri-JVR
Bickell/Clarkson/Horton-Weiss-Kessel
Frattin-Colborne-Kulemin
Goon-McClement-marlies graduate/Hamilton


I really think a gritty powerforward would be really good for Kessel. Plus there would be net presence. JVR on Kadri's line adds size and net presence.

I think those top two lines could be used interchangeably.

Weiss is an upgrade on Bozak. We can't keep Grabo if we sign Weiss. Colborne deserves a proper chance.

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06-16-2013, 09:46 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
If Bozie was asking for that then he's more than likely already signed and there probably aren't rumors about signing Weiss.
Precisely. I cannot emphasize this enough.

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Weiss over Bozak.

Points-per-game over last three seasons:
Weiss - 0.64
Bozak - 0.53

Faceoff percentage over last three seasons:
Weiss - 51.1%, 53.2%, 53.9%
Bozak - 52.6%, 52.7%, 54.6%

Weiss isn't even injury prone. In the 6 seasons prior to this one, he played 80, 76, 80, 78, 74 and 74 games.

Born in Toronto. Has more snarl than Bozak.

Edit: Do I seriously see Kessel on the 2nd line above me?

Also, all over the boards I see people putting Colborne on the 1st or 2nd line. The kid is nowhere NEAR ready to anchor anything more than a third line. Bonkers.

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06-16-2013, 09:51 AM
  #87
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You also have to take into account that with the cap coming down and comliance buy outs - Weiss may not be the only option out there.

Thorton, Marleau, Statsny, Brandon Sutter, and one of B. Schenn / S. Couturier will potentially be moved between now and the next trade deadline due to being in the last year of their deals, and their teams desperate for cap space by 2014.

If the rumours of Bozak going to Colorado are true it's becuase the Ave's are likely to get rid of Statsy AND their relationship with O'Reilly can't be great after he screwed them signing elsewhere last year. If they take McKinnon in the draft - they will have to move some bodies up the middle (of course, I think they're silly if they don't take Jones - he's exactly what they need).

There are other options coming up - so over-spending on a second tier centre may not be the wisest choice.

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06-16-2013, 10:18 AM
  #88
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Personally I have no desire to see Weiss on the Leafs. We have no way of knowing if he will work out here. Bozak on the other hand does. For all his faults, he still an effective player and has good chemistry with our best player.

If we are going to stir the pot, at least do so with a major improvement. Weiss is marginally a better player at best.

To me signing Weiss adds more risk to the team regressing.

I see Weiss as a bargaining chip for management to get a deal with Bozak more than anything.

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06-16-2013, 10:20 AM
  #89
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Personally I have no desire to see Weiss on the Leafs. We have no way of knowing if he will work out here. Bozak on the other hand does. For all his faults, he still an effective player and has good chemistry with our best player.

If we are going to stir the pot, at least do so with a major improvement. Weiss is marginally a better player at best.

To me signing Weiss adds more risk to the team regressing.

I see Weiss as a bargaining chip for management to get a deal with Bozak more than anything.
Kessel has good chemistry with everyone he plays with. Lupul, Kadri, JVR, etc.

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06-16-2013, 10:28 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Altaris View Post
Kessel has good chemistry with everyone he plays with. Lupul, Kadri, JVR, etc.
This has nothing to do with Weiss. Bozak is Kessel's best friend...for us to sign Weiss over Bozak would (and should) piss him off.

Now if a superstar center came along, then we all would understand, but Weiss is no major improvement. What do we gain exactly by doing this? 10 points? F that.

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06-16-2013, 10:28 AM
  #91
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If I could only have one, i'd definitely pick Weiss over Bozak. Having said that, i'm guessing Weiss will be a lot more expensive and I'm not quite sure how I feel about overpaying for a glorified second line center.

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06-16-2013, 10:37 AM
  #92
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weiss works as a good 3rd liner if he fails as a top 6

ie:
mclement weiss kulemin


Last edited by p.l.f.: 06-16-2013 at 10:51 AM.
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06-16-2013, 10:42 AM
  #93
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Not interested. Considering what he will be making, we might as well just pay Bozak then. He'll be a bad investment in the long run, IMO.

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06-16-2013, 10:51 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Weiss is not the ideal number 1 center for the Leafs with the design to center Kessel, as he doesn't bring any real intangibles or otherwise to balance out the line and compensate for Kessel's shortcomings.
Weiss doesnt have to be #1 centre, Kadri could easily slot into that role and play with Kessel and JVR.

It really comes down to money. If Bozak is looking for north of 4 million, which im sure he is, then signing Weiss for slightly more makes a lot of sense. Hes more ideally suited to a #2 centre and capable of better numbers.

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06-16-2013, 10:52 AM
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It's a no brainer if we could swap salaries of Grabo's 5.5 with Weiss, and actually even saving roughly .5M-1M per term, Weiss is a far better option than Grabo at #3 or better yet a top 6C where we can drop Bozak down to the shutdown role.

We sign Bozak, sign Weiss.

And go with

Weiss
Kadri
Bozak
Colborne/Mcclement next season.

Pretty solid Center core right there, with a terrific winger core. Adding Weiss for Grabo is a big upgrade. And he may be a discount off of a off injured season.

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06-16-2013, 10:57 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
It's a no brainer if we could swap salaries of Grabo's 5.5 with Weiss, and actually even saving roughly .5M-1M per term, Weiss is a far better option than Grabo at #3 or better yet a top 6C where we can drop Bozak down to the shutdown role.

We sign Bozak, sign Weiss.

And go with

Weiss
Kadri
Bozak
Colborne/Mcclement next season.

Pretty solid Center core right there, with a terrific winger core. Adding Weiss for Grabo is a big upgrade. And he may be a discount off of a off injured season.
I would welcome this move with open arms. Grabo needs to go, I love him as a player but he will not make it under Carlyle.

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06-16-2013, 11:05 AM
  #97
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I would welcome this move with open arms. Grabo needs to go, I love him as a player but he will not make it under Carlyle.
If we sign Weiss to 4M per, Grabo is good as gone. Either buy out or for a 3rd rd pick at most, 2nd if we take back a salary.

Then we can use the 1.5M savings and hopefully get Bozak signed. Grabo's albatross contract is setting a bad precedent for contract negotiations on this team.

In short, it is handcuffing any leverage Nonis has, sets a terrible precedent for player agents to use against us for salary negotiation.

Grabo not only hurt this team on the ice, he is still hurting this team in contract talks.

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06-16-2013, 11:11 AM
  #98
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I wouldn't mind losing both grabo and bozak and gaining Weiss even if Weiss is paid 4.5 mil-5 mil on a 1-2 year term. Colborne can fit in third line. Kadri-Weiss-Colbone-McClement can work well for the next two years.

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06-16-2013, 11:14 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
If we sign Weiss to 4M per, Grabo is good as gone. Either buy out or for a 3rd rd pick at most, 2nd if we take back a salary.

Then we can use the 1.5M savings and hopefully get Bozak signed. Grabo's albatross contract is setting a bad precedent for contract negotiations on this team.

In short, it is handcuffing any leverage Nonis has, sets a terrible precedent for player agents to use against us for salary negotiation.

Grabo not only hurt this team on the ice, he is still hurting this team in contract talks.
Solution:

Trade Grabovski for the rights to Stephen Weiss and then re-sign him to the money presently being paid Grabs.

That way you add a top 6 player and your cap hit consequences remain static and unchanged, but you have upgraded your team in the process of doing so.

With Weiss and Kadri now occupying the top 2 center ice roles, Nonis would have flexibility in negotiating with Bozak as you're now looking to fill the number #3 C hole, and the remuneration being offered for that position would be more in line with what Bozak provides and brings to the table.

If Bozak is not willing to accept then letting him walk with Weiss already secured is a lower risk move for the Leafs, that could potentially be filled with Colborne as Plan B.

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06-16-2013, 11:14 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by TmlHockeyFan View Post
I wouldn't mind losing both grabo and bozak and gaining Weiss even if Weiss is paid 4.5 mil-5 mil on a 1-2 year term. Colborne can fit in third line. Kadri-Weiss-Colbone-McClement can work well for the next two years.
We just have to lose Grabo.

Bad cap hit, bad contract precedent that handcuffs Nonis, bad player under Carlyle. The guy got old fast, and the quicker we rid ourselves of his services, the better our organization will be in the long run.

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