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Duper Finishes Seventh In Selke Voting

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Old
06-16-2013, 11:55 AM
  #26
Darth Vitale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Crosby is an elite 2-way player and I can't possibly see how an elite 2-way player receiving 5 Total Votes, none first place could be seen as unreasonable or undeserving.
His defensive game is not close to being elite IMO. The Selke (unless something has changed) is given to the best defensive forward in hockey. Crosby is not close to being elite in that respect (like Datsyuk or even Dupuis). He from time to time displays an excellent defensive game, but far from all the time. You need to take the golden boy glasses off on that one.

Now, maybe this summer Sid dedicates himself to defensive improvement and next year he runs away with the Selke (totally possible). For now and to this point, he hasn't been an elite forward on the defensive side of the ice. And frankly, we should not need him to be elite if the coaches are doing their jobs right and giving people the right assignments, etc. He merely needs to be consistently responsible and lead by example. If things were set up right it wouldn't matter that he's not defensively elite.

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06-16-2013, 11:59 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Fail to see the inconsistency. I don't consider Crosby to be that strong of a two-way player that he'd be Top 15 in the league. He can be at times, but not consistenty and from year to year. Not saying it'll never happen, either. Also saying name a GM who gave his team a better shot to win the Cup based on his actions from pre-season through Game 48 or whatever it was.
Not sure if Sid's playoff performance is clouding your judgment, but during the regular season Sid was CONSTANTLY being praised in post-game threads for his two-way play. During the regular season, this was by far and away his best two-way performance of his career. So I'd say based on that, he certainly deserved the votes.

As for the bolded part, I'm not sure what Crosby's two way play from previous seasons matters. He got votes for his performance this season, not when he was questionable defensively in his rookie season.

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06-16-2013, 12:04 PM
  #28
IcedCapp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
His defensive game is not close to being elite IMO. The Selke (unless something has changed) is given to the best defensive forward in hockey. Crosby is not close to being elite in that respect (like Datsyuk or even Dupuis). He from time to time displays an excellent defensive game, but far from all the time. You need to take the golden boy glasses off on that one.

Now, maybe this summer Sid dedicates himself to defensive improvement and next year he runs away with the Selke (totally possible). For now and to this point, he hasn't been an elite forward on the defensive side of the ice. And frankly, we should not need him to be elite if the coaches are doing their jobs right and giving people the right assignments, etc. He merely needs to be consistently responsible and lead by example. If things were set up right it wouldn't matter that he's not defensively elite.
What does his year-to-year consistency have to do with this year's Selke voting?

I don't know how to convince you, because you're going with your eye test, but some really smart people (myself not included) both on this board and in the hockey world will tell you that he's elite.

His advanced numbers were pretty good this season too, IIRC.

AND HIS +/- IS AMAZING!

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06-16-2013, 12:13 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Not sure if Sid's playoff performance is clouding your judgment, but during the regular season Sid was CONSTANTLY being praised in post-game threads for his two-way play. During the regular season, this was by far and away his best two-way performance of his career. So I'd say based on that, he certainly deserved the votes.

As for the bolded part, I'm not sure what Crosby's two way play from previous seasons matters. He got votes for his performance this season, not when he was questionable defensively in his rookie season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
What does his year-to-year consistency have to do with this year's Selke voting?

I don't know how to convince you, because you're going with your eye test, but some really smart people (myself not included) both on this board and in the hockey world will tell you that he's elite.

His advanced numbers were pretty good this season too, IIRC.

AND HIS +/- IS AMAZING!
Not saying he's a BAD defensive player. I'm saying I'm not sure that I'd put him top 15 in the league. There are many great defensive forwards out there. Substract his offense and +/- (a borderline useless stat for most players and situations) and just look at his defense.

I agree his defense has improved the last season or two but that's neither here nor there. Faceoffs too at times. But look at guys like Matt Cooke for Chrissakes. Is Matt Cooke a better defensive forward than Sidney Crosby? Can you bring yourself to say it? That's sort of my point.

The league has sort of set this up like "OK we're going to call it best defensive forward but what we're really going to do is look at a dozen or so guys who get lots of points AND play sound defensive hockey, and we'll give it to one of those guys most years." The points shouldn't enter into the equation, neither should +/- except for player who aren't lined up with big point-getters, or who, like Dupuis, are potting lots of even strength goals.

Of the high end offensive guys really only Datsyuk, usually Hossa, Bergeron and a few others have truly great defensive games. As in you can count on it. I know it's not a year-to-year award, there I'm just point out the trend of how one might discern if Crosby's defensive game is "elite".

Anyway, this is about Dupuis and recognizing his skill (and defensively he's more than 8 slots better than Crosby in the real world), so I'll leave it at that.

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06-16-2013, 12:22 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Not saying he's a BAD defensive player. I'm saying I'm not sure that I'd put him top 15 in the league. There are many great defensive forwards out there. Substract his offense and +/- (a borderline useless stat for most players and situations) and just look at his defense.

I agree his defense has improved the last season or two but that's neither here nor there. Faceoffs too at times. But look at guys like Matt Cooke for Chrissakes. Is Matt Cooke a better defensive forward than Sidney Crosby? Can you bring yourself to say it? That's sort of my point.

The league has sort of set this up like "OK we're going to call it best defensive forward but what we're really going to do is look at a dozen or so guys who get lots of points AND play sound defensive hockey, and we'll give it to one of those guys most years." The points shouldn't enter into the equation, neither should +/- except for player who aren't lined up with big point-getters, or who, like Dupuis, are potting lots of even strength goals.

Of the high end offensive guys really only Datsyuk, usually Hossa, Bergeron and a few others have truly great defensive games. As in you can count on it. I know it's not a year-to-year award, there I'm just point out the trend of how one might discern if Crosby's defensive game is "elite".

Anyway, this is about Dupuis and recognizing his skill (and defensively he's more than 8 slots better than Crosby in the real world), so I'll leave it at that.
Thing is, Selke's become more of a "Best Two-Way Forward" award, not just a best defensive forward award. Look at the guys at the top of the voting. All have the prerequisite offensive totals. Heck, Dupuis finished as high as he did largely because he's got the offensive totals that he didn't have in previous seasons.

So in that context, I don't see why Crosby being 15th in the league in terms of "two way forwards" is such a stretch. Similarly, that's why Dupuis will almost always finish below guys like Toews, Datsyuk, etc. despite being as good (or better) defensively than some of them. His offensive totals just aren't great enough to qualify for the voters' mythical "two way stud" template.

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06-16-2013, 12:29 PM
  #31
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Sutter should have received Kuntiz's votes. Sutter was 7th in Corsi Rel QoC (among centers playing more than 20 games) behind Backes, Hanzal, Zetterberg, Koivu and Nielsen. his defensive zone start percentage was 20th in the league (only started in the offensive zone 37.8% of the time).

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06-16-2013, 12:36 PM
  #32
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I think Goals and Assists (other than even strength goals maybe) should be removed from the equation, and +/- too for 40 goal scorer types. And look at things like back-checking skills, board work, takeaways, blocked shots, penalty killing stats, etc. That's how you define a good defensive forward. Points should really be a tertiary (not even secondary) consideration. But they're not.

As with the MVP this is another area where the league fails to pay attention to the details / improve upon past traditions.

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06-16-2013, 01:23 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
and +/- too for 40 goal scorer types. And look at things like back-checking skills, board work, takeaways, blocked shots, penalty killing stats, etc.
woahhh, ignoring +/- for superior offensive players? Arbitrary city. Either take it into consideration or don't. Elite offensive players are great defensively because they don't give up goals while they are scoring/possessing the puck. You're basically saying that players that hold the puck aren't as valuable defensively as players who don't possess it.

Anyhow, as for the thing YOU'D look at: Crosby back-checks. I won't accept any argument that he doesn't. He's GREAT along the boards. He's not elite at takeaways, but I find it interesting that you'd look at +/- for certain players, but entertain takeaways, which, along with hits, is the most subjective, weirdly-kept stat in the NHL. The takeaway/giveaway/hits stats are largely irrelevant because they are kept inconsistently from Arena to Arena.

Crosby could be a good+ PKer. Dan Bylsma will never allow him to be more than a FO specialist. Is that Crosby's fault? I'm not sure. I think Evgeni Malkin could be an elite defender if put in defensive situations.

Blocked shots for a forward isn't really a stat I look at. The only time a forward is really collecting blocked shots is on the PK, and as I said, that's a bit subjective. Also, while this is a regular season award, we've seen that Crosby is more than willing to block shots, even with a broken jaw.

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06-16-2013, 07:16 PM
  #34
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kinda weird how Eric finished higher than Jodan Staal. i didn't see either of them play much but what's up with that?

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06-16-2013, 07:30 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyPierroZabotel17 View Post
kinda weird how Eric finished higher than Jodan Staal. i didn't see either of them play much but what's up with that?
his +/-

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06-16-2013, 07:40 PM
  #36
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I don't think I would have had him on my hypothetical ballot unless he spent the year at center. Being a good defensive winger is much easier than being a good defensive center, and has a lot less impact on the game.

I guess this wouldn't necessarily be true for wingers that are deployed as shadows, but Dupuis is not used in that capacity.

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06-17-2013, 10:50 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyPierroZabotel17 View Post
kinda weird how Eric finished higher than Jodan Staal. i didn't see either of them play much but what's up with that?
Jordan was horrible this year from what I can tell. I'm sure he'll bounce back, but he didn't deserve any better than where he was ranked.

As for Dupuis getting so high on this list, I have no problem with it. Sure he can't steal the puck like Datsyuk, but he's fast and tenacious. Remember this is about the 48 reg season, not the playoffs, and not the year before. For this season, I'd have Dupuis up there, and not just because of the phenomenal +/-

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06-18-2013, 02:03 PM
  #38
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http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...20&sortdir=ASC

Zone start adjusted Goals/against / 20min icetime last year.

This is always a tough award to pick without any defined criteria and the shared media brain cell.

Derek Stepan was probably most deserving.

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