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Habs' off-season moves (all trades, proposals & free agent talk here) V

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Old
06-16-2013, 09:40 AM
  #651
Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by pcamp View Post
So Chicago will have to deciide if they buy out Roszival or let Bickell walk. Either way id submit an offer to either one
They'll buy out Montador and Olesz long before Roszival.

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06-16-2013, 09:59 AM
  #652
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
"You have no clue what you're talking about rahrahrahrahrah derp..."

Stop drinking the kool-aid. Gorges is the most overrated player on these boards. You and the others still fail to bring anything else than "shot-blocking" and those supposed leadership qualities to talk about what he brings as contributions to this team. Still, for the "great" leader he is supposed to be, he keeps saying the most stupid things, he keeps getting on Subban's back, and he keeps acting like a tool. His shot blocking is often a weakness, as he is very often the one deflecting shots in his own net. He's slow. He's not physical. He's got 0 offensive abilities. That, PLUS we saw last year he is bound to have one or two seasons here and there where he's not even good defensively... and all that, while playing on a team which was on a HUGE hot streak.

Bring me something this guy brings... Tell me about ONE thing. One SINGLE thing he brings other than shot blocking.

First pass?
Shooting?
Offensive zone passing?
Toughness?
Crease-clearing abilities?
Skating?

Tell me of ONE single aspect Gorges brings that makes you say: "Wow! He's really making a living out of doing that!"

Then, tell me if it's worth a 6 years contract for 4M a season.

You guys stop *****ing about how Bergevin will pay 7M dollars to a 23 years old Norris Trophy winner, and start wondering about how much we pay guys like Gorges and Gionta, who add absolutely nothing to the identity of a team, and who eat almost 15% of the salary cap.
Total drivel and a garbage post.

I'd somewhat agree if you were trying to argue that Gorges was overpaid or something but to totally and disingenuously ignore defensive qualities when assessing a d-man is inexcusable. Either you're blind, a fool or intentionally withholding those points - in either case, you're totally wrong and ignorant of reality.

For the record: I hated Hamrlik and his contribution to the team. At his cap hit (at the time) and usage, I found that he wasn't bringing half of what his contemporaries offered for the same hit. I called him fat, cowardly, lazy and so on. Thing is, while he didn't bring any physicality, crease-clearing or point play, and while he constantly lazily chipped the puck out instead of making a play - his positional game was 2nd to none on our team. I just wanted more because the man was playing 20-25 minutes a night and murdering any chance at a transition game.

But with today's cap and our team structure, with PK, Markov and Diaz - Gorges' contribution is different.

Gorges is a fully defensive defenseman, and time and time again it's been shown that defensive defenseman are hard to assess and their contribution even harder to quantify.

His positioning, timing, stick work and awareness are what you should be talking about. And if you knew a thing about hockey you'd know that Gorges is a pretty damn good dman with all those considerations.

He doesn't lose the play like Bouillon, he doesn't jump into the lane too early like Markov, etc. He was just exposed by Therien's awful defensive system but honestly, so was everybody else.

I'm on my phone at the moment so I won't delve into it too much but Gorges today is definitely our 3rd best dman. He brings much stability and time crunching to our sorry d-corps and I'd trust him out there over Diaz, Emelin or the rest of the smurf kingdom any day.


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Old
06-16-2013, 10:08 AM
  #653
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Total drivel and a garbage post.

I'd somewhat agree if you were trying to argue that Gorges was overpaid or something but to totally and disingenuously ignore defensive qualities when assessing a d-man is inexcusable. Either you're blind, a fool or intentionally withholding those points - in either case, you're totally wrong and ignorant of reality.

For the record: I hated Hamrlik and his contribution to the team. At his cap hit (at the time) and usage, I found that he wasn't bringing half of what his contemporaries offered for the same hit. I called him fat, cowardly, lazy and so on. Thing is, while he didn't bring any physicality, crease-clearing or point play, and while he constantly lazily chipped the puck out instead of making a play - his positional game was 2nd to none on our team. I just wanted more because the man was playing 20-25 minutes a night and murdering any chance at a transition game.

But with today's cap and our team structure, with PK, Markov and Diaz - Gorges' contribution is different.

Gorges is a fully defensive defenseman, and time and time again it's been shown that defensive defenseman are hard to assess and their contribution even harder to quantify.

His positioning, timing, stick work and awareness are what you should be taking about. And if you knew a thing about hockey you'd know that Gorges is a pretty damn good dman with all those considerations.

He doesn't lose the play like Bouillon, he doesn't jump into the lane too early like Markov, etc. He was just exposed by Therien's awful defensive system but honestly, so was everybody else.

I'm on my phone at the moment so I won't delve into it too much but Gorges today is definitely our 3rd best dman. He brings much stability and time crunching to our sorry d-corps and I'd trust him out there over Diaz, Emelin or the rest of the smurf kingdom any day.
Pretty bang on, I'd say. Although there were times this year where I would have rathered diaz out there than Gorges, I wouldn't put any money down on it being the norm next year.

It's true, however, that maybe more than most, Gorges doesn't really fit that defensive scheme. Remains to be seen if anything changes next year, but I doubt it.

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Old
06-16-2013, 10:15 AM
  #654
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Anyhow, to properly respond to your post, to be nice and to actually give you an explanation, this is a terrible trade for the following reasons:

1) Letang is a UFA in 2014, you're giving up a lot for a player who is going UFA in one year.
2) In the short-term, it is not clear that Letang is *that much* better than Markov. Letang had more points, yes, but he gets a lot of points off Crosby and Malkin. Whereas Letang supports the Penguins powe play, Markov drives the Canadiens power play, he is the general, not the lieutenant. Markov is also better defensively, and he had to recover from a three-year absence.
3) By the time Letang becomes indisputably and omprehensively superior to Markov, Beaulieu may be on par with Letang. Beaulieu has progressed quite well in his development, excellent post-draft year in the OHL, and excellent first year in the AHL. Quite frankly, I wouldn't do Markov+Beaulieu straight up for Letang. I'd consider Markov+Beaulieu for Letang+1st to be a lateral move.
4) Why are you excited by Tom Kühnhackl? He was a 4th rounder in the 2010 draft. As a forward, two years after his draft year, he scored 29 points in 34 OHL games, that's not good.
5) On top of that, you want to throw in our best offensive prospect (Collberg) and a 1st rounder in a very deep draft. If we do this trade, we will have a completely depleted farm system (best forward prospect gone, best defense prospect gone, 1st rounder gone).

I'll tell you what I'm willing to offer for Kris Letang relative to what he would cost: Nothing. He isn't what we need. We already have Markov, Subban, Diaz, on the pro roster, and we have Beaulieu and Nygren among the prospects. The Habs are covered in the department of defenseman who contribute to the offense. We have that nailed. This is not the area where we need to sacrifice strength to build on. It's not one of our weaknesses. On top of that, Letang is overrated from playing with Crosby and Malkin, and is going UFA in 1 year.
You realize you may have just caused the world to explode, right? We are 100% in agreement on this. How is that for scary...lol.

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Old
06-16-2013, 10:29 AM
  #655
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Originally Posted by Habitant le colon View Post
Bring in Scuderi in summer To have

Scuderi Subban
Gorges Letang
Tinordi Bouillon
Diaz Drewsiki
(emelin)

We havemore cap space and have two perfect combination in our top4 1 Norris winner 1 Norris Finalist this year (near finalist in 2011). Letang is younger than Markov and have more NHL experience than Beaulieu. Lead to think that Nygren Pateryn and Ellis will have a chance to take Bouillon spot in a near future. Still have Diaz as a pmd. Collberg is a great young player but still another midget that has to learn the north american style hockey.

I Know that pittsburgh need to add to this but what? Shall we ask Teddy Blueger instead of Tom Kühnhackl or maybe Beau Bennett??

Letang, Scuderi and Bouillon pretty well know Therrien coaching style and this could help to build a strong minded d-core. That lead Pittsburg to gain a solid pp specialist, a young d man to build on, a young sniper, and a late 1st in 2014 (another great draft oh yeah??).

People mention that Crosby and Malkin produce Letang, can he do the same in our team. Was that the same when Jordan Staal fetch No. 8 overall pick, center Brandon Sutter and defenseman Brian Dumoulin?
Enough already.

We NEED Markov. Did you know the Habs have a .600 win percentage when Markov plays, and a less than .500 win percentage with Markov out of the line up? Markov played well all season until the final two weeks when he got a bit tired and other teams really pounded him because Emelin was out. Let's remember Markov missed almost TWO seasons, and played over 70 games his first season back. Therrien also over used him and under used Subban which also tired Markov out. Markov is an elite defender in this league and makes our entire team better when he plays. Next season he will do even better, especially since other teams will target Norris winner Subban more.

So, no, we do not get rid of Markov to get Letang...especially for the cost it would require in assets. We might want to recall Letang only has one year left, as well.

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Old
06-16-2013, 11:06 AM
  #656
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
You realize you may have just caused the world to explode, right? We are 100% in agreement on this. How is that for scary...lol.
Letang is a good offensive defensman but that's about it. Put most any offensive defensman in his role and they'll thrive. He's a product mostly of his teammates IMO. He'll never be THE man on any team that's competing and will not be as good on a lesser team.

That being said, he'll be grossly overpaid based on his teammates production. He can thank them for his career making contract which he'll be getting soon from Pitsburgh or some one else. Glad it won't be is though.

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Old
06-16-2013, 11:21 AM
  #657
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The Andrei Markov effect

Great article on Markov worth reading
http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2013/0...markov-effect/

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06-16-2013, 11:23 AM
  #658
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Just thought of an interesting scenario:

NYI just traded Streit because they weren't able to sign him.
They'll be looking at an offensive defenseman in the UFA market.
I'm not sure what their cap looks like and I know there's the possibility
Of buying out Dipietro either this summer or next.

Maybe somehow Bergevin can entice them to take Kaberle @ 4.5$ for 1 year it wouldn't be the worst contract to take on (as it's only one year) and Montreal could retain some of the salary (500-1million) and possibly throw in a late draft pick. That way if Bergevin wants to buyout another player (I.e. Gionta or Desharnais, etc...) it'll open up more cap space to sign bickell and clarkson and possibly scuderi (and maybe even a buyout like lecavalier, richards or briere)

Just a thought

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Old
06-16-2013, 11:41 AM
  #659
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I believe Jets fans get how valuable Stuart is. He would be a great addition, but it wouldn't come cheap.
I agree. I doubt it happens. I just can't find who might be available that helps add toughness and character on the backend. Douglas Murray is the only FA I see that is the least bit interesting, but his lack of speed is really a hindrance.

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06-16-2013, 12:13 PM
  #660
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Total drivel and a garbage post.

I'd somewhat agree if you were trying to argue that Gorges was overpaid or something but to totally and disingenuously ignore defensive qualities when assessing a d-man is inexcusable. Either you're blind, a fool or intentionally withholding those points - in either case, you're totally wrong and ignorant of reality.

For the record: I hated Hamrlik and his contribution to the team. At his cap hit (at the time) and usage, I found that he wasn't bringing half of what his contemporaries offered for the same hit. I called him fat, cowardly, lazy and so on. Thing is, while he didn't bring any physicality, crease-clearing or point play, and while he constantly lazily chipped the puck out instead of making a play - his positional game was 2nd to none on our team. I just wanted more because the man was playing 20-25 minutes a night and murdering any chance at a transition game.

But with today's cap and our team structure, with PK, Markov and Diaz - Gorges' contribution is different.

Gorges is a fully defensive defenseman, and time and time again it's been shown that defensive defenseman are hard to assess and their contribution even harder to quantify.

His positioning, timing, stick work and awareness are what you should be talking about. And if you knew a thing about hockey you'd know that Gorges is a pretty damn good dman with all those considerations.

He doesn't lose the play like Bouillon, he doesn't jump into the lane too early like Markov, etc. He was just exposed by Therien's awful defensive system but honestly, so was everybody else.

I'm on my phone at the moment so I won't delve into it too much but Gorges today is definitely our 3rd best dman. He brings much stability and time crunching to our sorry d-corps and I'd trust him out there over Diaz, Emelin or the rest of the smurf kingdom any day.
and if he is our third best dman

WE NEED

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06-16-2013, 12:15 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by axman88 View Post
Just thought of an interesting scenario:

NYI just traded Streit because they weren't able to sign him.
They'll be looking at an offensive defenseman in the UFA market.
I'm not sure what their cap looks like and I know there's the possibility
Of buying out Dipietro either this summer or next.

Maybe somehow Bergevin can entice them to take Kaberle @ 4.5$ for 1 year it wouldn't be the worst contract to take on (as it's only one year) and Montreal could retain some of the salary (500-1million) and possibly throw in a late draft pick. That way if Bergevin wants to buyout another player (I.e. Gionta or Desharnais, etc...) it'll open up more cap space to sign bickell and clarkson and possibly scuderi (and maybe even a buyout like lecavalier, richards or briere)

Just a thought
totally legit my friend , one year , dont think they are at the floor , makes sense if you are the islanders

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06-16-2013, 12:15 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
I agree. I doubt it happens. I just can't find who might be available that helps add toughness and character on the backend. Douglas Murray is the only FA I see that is the least bit interesting, but his lack of speed is really a hindrance.
There's no room for Murray, unless you want Tinordi in the minors, which to me would be a gigantic waste of assets. A D core that has Tinordi, Emelin and Subban is far from soft IMO. Oh and please, Scuderi? Why would we want or need a 2nd Gorges?

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06-16-2013, 12:17 PM
  #663
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
You realize you may have just caused the world to explode, right? We are 100% in agreement on this. How is that for scary...lol.
me too

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06-16-2013, 12:21 PM
  #664
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
No Maxpac, we need to add Subban and Gallagher.

Would be simpler to offer all our team for Letang according to him.

This is the worst proposal I have seen in months if not years.
I guess the only goal was to troll...
Most likely, Letang will resign with Pens at a lower price than his real value.
I bet the odds are better than 50/50 Letang is traded at the draft

they cant pay him 7 mil in that structure , he is a pure O no D , the playoffs proved they dont have the team to win , too many d lapses , he will be packaged

they have Matta , Harrington , Pouliot , in the wings , plus u could get Kabie or some vet on the cheap for one year to buy some time

look for another Jordan Staal deal soon


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Old
06-16-2013, 12:23 PM
  #665
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In Montreal we either overrate or under appreciate our players. Hard to find a leveled opinion and analysis.

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Old
06-16-2013, 12:33 PM
  #666
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
and if he is our third best dman

WE NEED
I don't disagree, but gorges is not the problem.

Playing 37yr old Bouillon 17min a night and on the PP is a problem, extending that scrub Drewiskie for no g-d reason is a problem, Diaz and Markov refusing to engage in any body plays is a problem.

If we had another Gorges or similar minute eater we'd be in such better shape. All our other dmen will look much much better as a result.

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06-16-2013, 12:35 PM
  #667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axman88 View Post
Just thought of an interesting scenario:

NYI just traded Streit because they weren't able to sign him.
They'll be looking at an offensive defenseman in the UFA market.
I'm not sure what their cap looks like and I know there's the possibility
Of buying out Dipietro either this summer or next.

Maybe somehow Bergevin can entice them to take Kaberle @ 4.5$ for 1 year it wouldn't be the worst contract to take on (as it's only one year) and Montreal could retain some of the salary (500-1million) and possibly throw in a late draft pick. That way if Bergevin wants to buyout another player (I.e. Gionta or Desharnais, etc...) it'll open up more cap space to sign bickell and clarkson and possibly scuderi (and maybe even a buyout like lecavalier, richards or briere)

Just a thought
There's no way Bergevin buys out Desharnais. We just resigned him because he believes in him.
Also no chance he buys out our Captain - that would kill our dressing room morale and make no UFA want to sign with us for the next decade.

I have no issue with moving Kaberle but his value would be next to zilch as everyone in the league knows they can sign him to a cheap contract in three weeks when we buy him out

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06-16-2013, 12:38 PM
  #668
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There's no way Bergevin buys out Desharnais. We just resigned him because he believes in him.
Also no chance he buys out our Captain - that would kill our dressing room morale and make no UFA want to sign with us for the next decade.

I have no issue with moving Kaberle but his value would be next to zilch as everyone in the league knows they can sign him to a cheap contract in three weeks when we buy him out
I think Kaberles NHL career is done and everyone In the league knows it .

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Old
06-16-2013, 12:45 PM
  #669
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Total drivel and a garbage post.

I'd somewhat agree if you were trying to argue that Gorges was overpaid or something but to totally and disingenuously ignore defensive qualities when assessing a d-man is inexcusable. Either you're blind, a fool or intentionally withholding those points - in either case, you're totally wrong and ignorant of reality.

For the record: I hated Hamrlik and his contribution to the team. At his cap hit (at the time) and usage, I found that he wasn't bringing half of what his contemporaries offered for the same hit. I called him fat, cowardly, lazy and so on. Thing is, while he didn't bring any physicality, crease-clearing or point play, and while he constantly lazily chipped the puck out instead of making a play - his positional game was 2nd to none on our team. I just wanted more because the man was playing 20-25 minutes a night and murdering any chance at a transition game.

But with today's cap and our team structure, with PK, Markov and Diaz - Gorges' contribution is different.

Gorges is a fully defensive defenseman, and time and time again it's been shown that defensive defenseman are hard to assess and their contribution even harder to quantify.

His positioning, timing, stick work and awareness are what you should be talking about. And if you knew a thing about hockey you'd know that Gorges is a pretty damn good dman with all those considerations.

He doesn't lose the play like Bouillon, he doesn't jump into the lane too early like Markov, etc. He was just exposed by Therien's awful defensive system but honestly, so was everybody else.

I'm on my phone at the moment so I won't delve into it too much but Gorges today is definitely our 3rd best dman. He brings much stability and time crunching to our sorry d-corps and I'd trust him out there over Diaz, Emelin or the rest of the smurf kingdom any day.
You bring up positioning, timing stick work and awareness. Still... You can say EXACTLY the same thing about a guy like Hal Gill. One could say that Gill was even better with his stick work. He kept breaking all of those plays solely based on that - and his long reach. How much did he get per season. How many years did he get on each of his contracts?

Gill spent his entire career playing no more than 2 or 3 years on the same contract. He was making in the low 2M.

Plus, can we even say positioning and timing is always top notch? He's very, very often getting out of position to block shots, which often plays turn on his and his team. You bring up awareness... The guy is NEVER keeping the blueline in the offensive zone. He NEVER bets. Very often, loose pucks high in the offensive zone that could be easily fetched by a d-man are not, because Gorges is too slow to win close races to the puck, too weak physically to outmuscle the other guy, and is even lower than the red line to compensate for those weaknesses.

Not only is Gorges having all of those limitations in his game, he's not even bringing all of those supposed qualities with regularity. Last season, in what was a very good year for this team overall, Gorges looked extremely weak.

The year before, he had an average year in what is a 28th ranked team in the league.

Still, people say Gorges is a very valuable part of our team. I do not agree. Fact is, he could be replaced by a lot of d-men in the UFA market pretty much every single season, and the team wouldn't look far worst. For all the **** Therrien's system gets on these boards, we still have career years from guys like Emelin and Subban, and a guy like Markov looking helpless in both the KHL and the NHL last season in March/April, looked much better last season. Bouillon also wasn't half as bad as this board makes him out to be, playing up to the level he's supposed to at 1.5M/1 year; one of an "OK" 3rd pairing d-man.

But people here won't make me say Gorges is a total necessity to this team's success. Never. He's replacable, and at 4M for each of the 5 more years, I'd even say he's a player I'd part with to spend more on more useful players, while replacing him with a similar player for half the price.

People keep *****ing and crying about Subban, who'll get Drew Doughty money and even more. You CAN pay this price for a franchise d-man who proved his worth... as long as you don't pay people like Gorges 4M for "awareness", which in fact is him backing up to the defensive zone without any question because he knows he has none of the tools to win any puck race/puck battle against the average NHL player.

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06-16-2013, 12:50 PM
  #670
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I don't disagree, but gorges is not the problem.

Playing 37yr old Bouillon 17min a night and on the PP is a problem, extending that scrub Drewiskie for no g-d reason is a problem, Diaz and Markov refusing to engage in any body plays is a problem.

If we had another Gorges or similar minute eater we'd be in such better shape. All our other dmen will look much much better as a result.
You're *****ing and accusing people of not knowing anything about the game, and you'd like to have an extra d-man who doesn't win physical battles, doesn't win puck races by speed, doesn't contribute offensively, doesn't clear the crease, and makes a living out of "blocking shot and displaying awareness"?... I'll keep it at that.

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06-16-2013, 12:57 PM
  #671
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Not to sound cliche, but teams would line up to grab a guy like Gorges.

He's being severely under-appreciated imo. He's not an all-star D-man, but he's not a scrub.

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06-16-2013, 01:00 PM
  #672
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Not to sound cliche, but teams would line up to grab a guy like Gorges.

He's being severely under-appreciated imo. He's not an all-star D-man, but he's not a scrub.
At 5 more years? At nearly 4M per? No. They wouldn't line up. Most of them have a player who fills Gorges' role for half the money.

Boston has Ference who plays Gorges' role.
Chicago has Roszival or Oduya playing his role.

All are significantly less paid on much shorter terms than Gorges.

Nobody said he was a scrub. But a 4M per season? People should focus on that instead of a 23 years old trophy winner who'll get his deserved pay cheque.

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06-16-2013, 01:11 PM
  #673
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
At 5 more years? At nearly 4M per? No. They wouldn't line up. Most of them have a player who fills Gorges' role for half the money.

Boston has Ference who plays Gorges' role.
Chicago has Roszival or Oduya playing his role.

All are significantly less paid on much shorter terms than Gorges.

Nobody said he was a scrub. But a 4M per season? People should focus on that instead of a 23 years old trophy winner who'll get his deserved pay cheque.
Gorges is making 530K more than Oduya. Pretty insignificant. He's also one year removed from a 3.5 million dollar cap hit. If anything you demonstrated that Gorges is making a little over league minimum to a comparable player.

Roszival is an aging D-man and not a comparable. Teams are less willing to invest big money in aging players and don't forget that he's just one year removed from making 5 million.

Also you chose D-men from two teams that are extremely well built and balanced in all areas. Who's to say Gorges wouldn't look as good as these players on a D core that has more diversity and better overall talent? Who's to say that Ference wouldn't completely crap the bed in Montreal?

Gorges is slightly overpaid, but not nearly by any amount that is bothersome or back breaking. He's a very useful defenseman who has value to this team both on the ice and as an asset, and isn't anywhere close to being problem for this club moving forward.

Also the contract discussion regarding Subban isn't comparable to Gorges. We're not talking about Subban being overpaid, we're talking about the opportunity to have signed him at a discount. Apples and Oranges. Unless we had the chance to have locked up Gorges long-term at a smaller cap hit, but waiting for a breakout season instead, then the situations aren't comparable.


Last edited by Andy: 06-16-2013 at 01:19 PM.
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06-16-2013, 01:14 PM
  #674
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Enough already.

We NEED Markov. Did you know the Habs have a .600 win percentage when Markov plays, and a less than .500 win percentage with Markov out of the line up? Markov played well all season until the final two weeks when he got a bit tired and other teams really pounded him because Emelin was out. Let's remember Markov missed almost TWO seasons, and played over 70 games his first season back. Therrien also over used him and under used Subban which also tired Markov out. Markov is an elite defender in this league and makes our entire team better when he plays. Next season he will do even better, especially since other teams will target Norris winner Subban more.

So, no, we do not get rid of Markov to get Letang...especially for the cost it would require in assets. We might want to recall Letang only has one year left, as well.
But see I don't much care with what Markov has left and what he may or may not bring to this team cause I think we should continue on with Bergevin's rebuild plan. Because that's where we are right now, a rebuilding phase. If we want to become elite, an older Markov won't cut it. Nor Gorges. We have to rebuild our entire D squad for the futur.

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06-16-2013, 01:17 PM
  #675
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Gorges is built for a collapsing/shot blocking scheme. We now play a pressure system. He got exposed due to his lack of mobility, you need to be able to skate to defend in this system. Love the guy, but I think we should trade him at the draft to a team that plays to his strengths.

Exactly. And it's easier for guys like him to play a Martin defensive style. It's not there anymore. Players in the Habs' line-up are asked to do more now, esp. the Ds.

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