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Habs' off-season moves (all trades, proposals & free agent talk here) V

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06-16-2013, 01:20 PM
  #676
Rosso Scuderia
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
At 5 more years? At nearly 4M per? No. They wouldn't line up. Most of them have a player who fills Gorges' role for half the money.

Boston has Ference who plays Gorges' role.
Chicago has Roszival or Oduya playing his role.

All are significantly less paid on much shorter terms than Gorges.

Nobody said he was a scrub. But a 4M per season? People should focus on that instead of a 23 years old trophy winner who'll get his deserved pay cheque.
Yeah every teams has and especially need a guy like Gorges. Yes he's a bit expensive but we all know our players are always a bit overpaid.

Gorges had a rough year but if he can come back like the Gorges that led the league in block shots, great on PK and a leader in our lockeroom I couldn't care less about his 1M$ extra.

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Old
06-16-2013, 01:21 PM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Gorges is making 530K more than Oduya. Pretty insignificant.

Roszival is an aging D-man and not a comparable. Teams are less willing to invest big money in aging players and don't forget that he's just one year removed from making 5 million.

Also you chose D-men from two teams that are extremely well built and balanced in all areas. Who's to say Gorges wouldn't look as good as these players on a D core that has more diversity and better overall talent? Who's to say that Ference wouldn't completely crap the bed in Montreal?

Gorges is slightly overpaid, but not nearly by any amount that is bothersome or back breaking. He's a very useful defenseman who has value to this team both on the ice and as an asset, and isn't anywhere close to being problem for this club moving forward.

Also the contract discussion regarding Subban isn't comparable to Gorges. We're not talking about Subban being overpaid, we're talking about the opportunity to have signed him at a discount. Apples and Oranges. Unless we had the chance to have locked up Gorges long-term at a smaller cap hit, but waiting for a breakout season instead, then the situations aren't comparable.
Oduya is paid for 2 more years. Much more movable contract if things turn out sour, isn't it?

3.3M for 2 more years (6.6M)
vs
3.9M for 5 more years (19.5M)

Roszival can be 1 year removed from a 5M contract, it doesn't change anything. He's just as effective, bigger, better offensively, and all that while being paid peanuts.

Who's to say Roszival, a guy who looked like this everywhere he's been in this league, wouldn't look exactly the same for the Habs.

Oduya was playing just as good for Atlanta AND NJ. If you remember him, he looked just as good.

Ference, even back when the Bruins were an 8th spot team, was just as good as he is now.

There is a reason why those teams are that well built; they don't give ridiculous contracts to depth players.

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06-16-2013, 01:21 PM
  #678
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Yeah every teams has and especially need a guy like Gorges. Yes he's a bit expensive but we all know our players are always a bit overpaid.

Gorges had a rough year but if he can come back like the Gorges that led the league in block shots, great on PK and a leader in our lockeroom I couldn't care less about his 1M$ extra.
That Gorges died in 2010. He's older, beat-up now and can't adapt to the new system.

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06-16-2013, 01:23 PM
  #679
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Yeah every teams has and especially need a guy like Gorges. Yes he's a bit expensive but we all know our players are always a bit overpaid.

Gorges had a rough year but if he can come back like the Gorges that led the league in block shots, great on PK and a leader in our lockeroom I couldn't care less about his 1M$ extra.
Cut the leader in the lockeroom speech. The guy looked like an idiot in the lockout, and has been through more than enough skirmishes/*****ing sessions with guys like Cammalleri and Subban, who both contributed to more for this team than Gorges can even dream of.

Him having a rough year in a season where this team did so well isn't worrying anybody?

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Old
06-16-2013, 01:29 PM
  #680
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Oduya is paid for 2 more years. Much more movable contract if things turn out sour, isn't it?

3.3M for 2 more years (6.6M)
vs
3.9M for 5 more years (19.5M)

Roszival can be 1 year removed from a 5M contract, it doesn't change anything. He's just as effective, bigger, better offensively, and all that while being paid peanuts.

Who's to say Roszival, a guy who looked like this everywhere he's been in this league, wouldn't look exactly the same for the Habs.

Oduya was playing just as good for Atlanta AND NJ. If you remember him, he looked just as good.

Ference, even back when the Bruins were an 8th spot team, was just as good as he is now.

There is a reason why those teams are that well built; they don't give ridiculous contracts to depth players.
Actually Oduya wasn't as sharp in Atlanta and near the end with jets as he is with the Hawks. He was good in NJ though. I remember people scoffing at the idea of trading a second rounder for him.

I disagree about drawing comparisons between Roszival and Gorges. The former is 6 years older, it's rare that 34 year old players get those kinds of deals. Ference is also 34.

I also extremely disagree about Gorges being a depth player as well as his contract being "ridiculous". He's getting paid similar money to Johnny Oduya, who you admit is a comparable player, while being three years younger. In fact, Oduya is probably the best comparable has he just signed a 3 year 3.385 million dollar contract and just came off of a 3 year 3.5 million dollar contract. Similar situations for similar players.

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06-16-2013, 01:33 PM
  #681
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Actually Oduya wasn't as sharp in Atlanta and near the end with jets as he is with the Hawks. He was good in NJ though. I remember people scoffing at the idea of trading a second rounder for him.

I disagree about drawing comparisons between Roszival and Gorges. The former in 6 years older, it's rare that 34 year old players get those kinds of deals. Ference is also 34.

I disagree about Gorges being a depth player as well as his contract being "ridiculous". He's getting paid similar money to Johnny Oduya, who you admit is a comparable player, while being three years younger. In fact, Oduya is probably the best comparable has he just signed a 3 year 3.385 million dollar contract and just came off of a 3 year 3.5 million dollar contract. Similar situations for similar players.
Oduya actually looked good on good teams. Which is more than what one can say about Gorges last season.

Oduya never got a 6 years contract his whole career. He also never got paid as much as Gorges.

For one, he does all those things Gorges does, all that while being more competent offensively, and most of all, much quicker.

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06-16-2013, 01:35 PM
  #682
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Total drivel and a garbage post.

I'd somewhat agree if you were trying to argue that Gorges was overpaid or something but to totally and disingenuously ignore defensive qualities when assessing a d-man is inexcusable. Either you're blind, a fool or intentionally withholding those points - in either case, you're totally wrong and ignorant of reality.

For the record: I hated Hamrlik and his contribution to the team. At his cap hit (at the time) and usage, I found that he wasn't bringing half of what his contemporaries offered for the same hit. I called him fat, cowardly, lazy and so on. Thing is, while he didn't bring any physicality, crease-clearing or point play, and while he constantly lazily chipped the puck out instead of making a play - his positional game was 2nd to none on our team. I just wanted more because the man was playing 20-25 minutes a night and murdering any chance at a transition game.

But with today's cap and our team structure, with PK, Markov and Diaz - Gorges' contribution is different.

Gorges is a fully defensive defenseman, and time and time again it's been shown that defensive defenseman are hard to assess and their contribution even harder to quantify.

His positioning, timing, stick work and awareness are what you should be talking about. And if you knew a thing about hockey you'd know that Gorges is a pretty damn good dman with all those considerations.

He doesn't lose the play like Bouillon, he doesn't jump into the lane too early like Markov, etc. He was just exposed by Therien's awful defensive system but honestly, so was everybody else.

I'm on my phone at the moment so I won't delve into it too much but Gorges today is definitely our 3rd best dman. He brings much stability and time crunching to our sorry d-corps and I'd trust him out there over Diaz, Emelin or the rest of the smurf kingdom any day.
Thank you. Some people are just piling crap on Gorges and it's just not true. I don't have the energy or articulate finesse to reply to them, but I'm glad you did.

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Old
06-16-2013, 01:39 PM
  #683
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Oduya actually looked good on good teams. Which is more than what one can say about Gorges last season.

Oduya never got a 6 years contract his whole career. He also never got paid as much as Gorges.

For one, he does all those things Gorges does, all that while being more competent offensively, and most of all, much quicker.
Oduya and Gorges have had similar offensive outputs in their careers. Very disingenuous to say Oduya is more competent offensively. Oduya is quicker sure, but that doesn't necessarily translate into being better.

You are the one who brought up Oduya as a comparable. Gorges pay discrepancy is marginal.

Oduya has a rough patch in his career as well and one season doesn't make a career. Nothing suggests that Gorges can't bounce back.

I disagree with your assessment with Gorges entirely. I find you to exaggerate his flaws and overlook his contributions. Like I said, teams would line-up to acquire Gorges and his salary wouldn't be a hindrance. Nothing about his cap hit is back-breaking or absurd. He's slightly overpaid, but it's marginal at best.

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06-16-2013, 01:42 PM
  #684
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Cut the leader in the lockeroom speech. The guy looked like an idiot in the lockout, and has been through more than enough skirmishes/*****ing sessions with guys like Cammalleri and Subban, who both contributed to more for this team than Gorges can even dream of.

Him having a rough year in a season where this team did so well isn't worrying anybody?
And what the **** do you know. Gorges has an A on his jersey. That tells more than everything else. You cut the crap about his the lockout team. Players have difference opinions about it, who cares. Im pretty sure Gorges is one of the most respected guy in the lockeroom. Only an moron would not know that. In the 24CH, it was pretty obvious that Gorges was one the leader in the room behind Gio.

And cry me a river about the little skirmish. Really, that's an argument now? Subban had skirmish with almost every guy in the lockeroom. Did you see him yell at Pacioretty after that suicide pass? Who cares really. Stop being a ***** about it. You clearly have an agenda against Gorges and its a clear case of double standard here. You're sounding ridiculous.

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06-16-2013, 01:42 PM
  #685
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Thank you. Some people are just piling crap on Gorges and it's just not true. I don't have the energy or articulate finesse to reply to them, but I'm glad you did.
I'm on my phone, bored as hell in a Project Management Professional certification course. Higgs is getting a much more indepth reply if I get home before dying of boredom.

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Old
06-16-2013, 01:43 PM
  #686
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Hey guys, how would you like getting Ponikarovsky and Steckel this summer? I'm thinking about the lineup next year and I see them as great additions.
lol why steckel when gordon is available? hes easily the best shutdown C in this years UFA pool, plus hes still relatively young. id sign him to a 3 year contract asap

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06-16-2013, 01:47 PM
  #687
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Oduya and Gorges have had similar offensive outputs in their careers. Oduya is quicker sure, but that doesn't necessarily translate into better.

You are the one who brought up Oduya as a comparable. Gorges pay discrepancy is marginal.

Oduya has a rough patch in his career as well and one season doesn't make a career.

I disagree with your assessment with Gorges entire. I find you to exaggerate his flaws and overlook his contributions. Like I said, teams would line-up to acquire Gorges and his salary wouldn't be a hindrance. Nothing about his cap hit is back-breaking or absurd. He's slightly overpaid.
NO guy like Gorges gets a 6 years contract in this league. The kind of hockey he plays makes him likely to get significantly worst as the years pass. At this point, his salary gets more and more of a problem.

Oduya, for one, is much quicker, and that changes a whole lot of things in his game. He's much better at keeping the blueline, and he's far from putting himself out of position to block shots as much as Gorges does.

You keep bringing up the contracts as similar.

Oduya is being paid for 2 more years. 2 more years is easily movable.
Gorges is getting paid more, for 5 more years.

Keep ignoring that fact though.

I could care less about the age at which they'll finish their respective contract. They're similar players, Gorges being less of a complete player, making more money, for twice as long.

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06-16-2013, 01:47 PM
  #688
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I'm on my phone, bored as hell in a Project Management Professional certification course. Higgs is getting a much more indepth reply if I get home before dying of boredom.
I'm scared ****less

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06-16-2013, 01:52 PM
  #689
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lol why steckel when gordon is available? hes easily the best shutdown C in this years UFA pool, plus hes still relatively young. id sign him to a 3 year contract asap
Steckel is 31 years old.
Gordon is 29.
Not a big difference. The difference, is here...

Steckel is 6'05, 217 lbs.
Gordon? 6'01, 200 lbs.

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06-16-2013, 01:55 PM
  #690
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I'm scared ****less
It's not about scaring you, it's about engaging in a constructive, positive discussion.


Last edited by Guerzy: 06-17-2013 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Edited out Flaming remark.
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06-16-2013, 01:55 PM
  #691
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
NO guy like Gorges gets a 6 years contract in this league. The kind of hockey he plays makes him likely to get significantly worst as the years pass. At this point, his salary gets more and more of a problem.

Oduya, for one, is much quicker, and that changes a whole lot of things in his game. He's much better at keeping the blueline, and he's far from putting himself out of position to block shots as much as Gorges does.

You keep bringing up the contracts as similar.

Oduya is being paid for 2 more years. 2 more years is easily movable.
Gorges is getting paid more, for 5 more years.

Keep ignoring that fact though.

I could care less about the age at which they'll finish their respective contract. They're similar players, Gorges being less of a complete player, making more money, for twice as long.
Oduya is 31 and Gorges is 28. Both contracts will end when the players are 33 years old. Entirely comparable. Sure Oduya gets there sooner, but your whole argument is that Gorges game will decline significantly by then. If both players are comparable in their roles, something which you brought up, there is no reason to expect Gorges to decline that quickly over the next three years.

Oduya is quicker, but isn't as willing to take a hit to make a play like Gorges is. Also, Gorges is a much better shot blocking, which regardless whether you want to deny it, is an important asset in today's nhl. Oduya and Gorges both have their strengths and flaws, but I wouldn't trade Gorges to acquire Oduya for example regardless of the remaining term. It would be the definition of a lateral move. Like you said, they are very similar players, have been paid similarly as well.

There is no issue here, just one that you are fabricating to justify your dislike for Josh Gorges. I personally think you are completely out to lunch with your assessment of Gorges.

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06-16-2013, 02:07 PM
  #692
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Steckel is 31 years old.
Gordon is 29.
Not a big difference. The difference, is here...

Steckel is 6'05, 217 lbs.
Gordon? 6'01, 200 lbs.
gordon is a much more complete player tho, hes one of the best 3rd/4th line shutdown centers in the league. steckel is more physical but i dont really care about that when i have jones/prust as my wingers, the addition of gordon to that line creates a legit shutdown line. you'd be able to roll them out in almost any situation

this would actually be a really good poll question

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06-16-2013, 02:10 PM
  #693
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gordon is a much more complete player tho, hes one of the best 3rd/4th line shutdown centers in the league. steckel is more physical but i dont really care about that when i have jones/prust as my wingers, the addition of gordon to that line creates a legit shutdown line. you'd be able to roll them out in almost any situation

this would actually be a really good poll question
Exactly. My top target in this FA would be Boyd Gordon followed by maybe Bickell, if we could also figure out a way to get a physical Dman I think we are set.

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06-16-2013, 02:12 PM
  #694
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And what the **** do you know. Gorges has an A on his jersey. That tells more than everything else. You cut the crap about his the lockout team. Players have difference opinions about it, who cares. Im pretty sure Gorges is one of the most respected guy in the lockeroom. Only an moron would not know that. In the 24CH, it was pretty obvious that Gorges was one the leader in the room behind Gio.

And cry me a river about the little skirmish. Really, that's an argument now? Subban had skirmish with almost every guy in the lockeroom. Did you see him yell at Pacioretty after that suicide pass? Who cares really. Stop being a ***** about it. You clearly have an agenda against Gorges and its a clear case of double standard here. You're sounding ridiculous.
he is simply overated

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06-16-2013, 02:15 PM
  #695
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
NO guy like Gorges gets a 6 years contract in this league. The kind of hockey he plays makes him likely to get significantly worst as the years pass. At this point, his salary gets more and more of a problem.

Oduya, for one, is much quicker, and that changes a whole lot of things in his game. He's much better at keeping the blueline, and he's far from putting himself out of position to block shots as much as Gorges does.

You keep bringing up the contracts as similar.

Oduya is being paid for 2 more years. 2 more years is easily movable.
Gorges is getting paid more, for 5 more years.

Keep ignoring that fact though.

I could care less about the age at which they'll finish their respective contract. They're similar players, Gorges being less of a complete player, making more money, for twice as long.
agreed my friend , Orpik got 6 six years but I will trake his game over Gorges right now and that A on his shirt means nothing , when you dont play well

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06-16-2013, 02:18 PM
  #696
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Exactly. My top target in this FA would be Boyd Gordon followed by maybe Bickell, if we could also figure out a way to get a physical Dman I think we are set.
fistric/gordon/bickell/jones are my top 4(were missing 2 RWers atm), bickell's $$ worrys me tho :/
if we manage to get jones i would trade moen and add white as our 13th forward, if not we just keep moen

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06-16-2013, 02:21 PM
  #697
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gordon is a much more complete player tho, hes one of the best 3rd/4th line shutdown centers in the league. steckel is more physical but i dont really care about that when i have jones/prust as my wingers, the addition of gordon to that line creates a legit shutdown line. you'd be able to roll them out in almost any situation

this would actually be a really good poll question
Actually, Steckel can be physical. With the Leafs last season he registered 171 hits. Almost 2 hits a game. Mean while in Anaheim in his 21 games this season he had 30.

2010-2011 18 games with New Jersey he had 16.
2010-2011 57 games 88 hits with the Capitals.

He can be physical. just if he wants to.

I'd take him. Offensively he and Halpern, at worse, will do the same. Steckel is 6'6 compared to Halpern's 5'11 frame.

They're both good on the pk and faceoffs. One can be hard to push off the puck and be physical while the other stops being physical when he comes here. Hell, Steckel might do the same.

Personally, if our pp continues to struggle because of our ***** players who refuse to go to the front of the net we can try and tell Steckel to go do it.

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06-16-2013, 02:24 PM
  #698
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Actually, Steckel can be physical. With the Leafs last season he registered 171 hits. Almost 2 hits a game. Mean while in Anaheim in his 21 games this season he had 30.

2010-2011 18 games with New Jersey he had 16.
2010-2011 57 games 88 hits with the Capitals.

He can be physical. just if he wants to.

I'd take him. Offensively he and Halpern, at worse, will do the same. Steckel is 6'6 compared to Halpern's 5'11 frame.

They're both good on the pk and faceoffs. One can be hard to push off the puck and be physical while the other stops being physical when he comes here. Hell, Steckel might do the same.

Personally, if our pp continues to struggle because of our ***** players who refuse to go to the front of the net we can try and tell Steckel to go do it.
i never said he wasnt, if you read my post i actually said hes a physical player : D. hes just not very good

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06-16-2013, 02:27 PM
  #699
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i never said he wasnt, if you read my post i actually said hes a physical player : D. hes just not very good
I was more stating that you're right, but it really depends on which Steckel we get.

Boyd Gordon wouldn't be a horrible choice either.

As long as it's not Halpern. Great team guy and all, but I'm sick of him and he should retire imo.

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06-16-2013, 02:30 PM
  #700
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I was more stating that you're right, but it really depends on which Steckel we get.

Boyd Gordon wouldn't be a horrible choice either.

As long as it's not Halpern. Great team guy and all, but I'm sick of him and he should retire imo.
ah ok, the "Actually" threw me off
gogo gordon vs steckel 4th line center poll!

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