HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Rumors and Speculation Thread #6

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-16-2013, 03:13 PM
  #226
healthyscratch
Registered User
 
healthyscratch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philly
Posts: 5,456
vCash: 633
Even if they do trade up to 5, does anyone really believe that they would take a defenseman?? With the organeyezation's past history and philosophy(?), I see zero chance they take a dman. It's so ridiculous.


Last edited by healthyscratch: 06-16-2013 at 03:33 PM.
healthyscratch is offline  
Old
06-16-2013, 03:34 PM
  #227
achdumeingute
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NorCal
Posts: 2,283
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Even if they do trade up to 5, does anyone really believe that they would take a defensemen?? With the organeyezation's past history and philosophy(?), I see zero chance they take a dman. It's so ridiculous.
Like the time they drafted luca sbisa...

achdumeingute is offline  
Old
06-16-2013, 04:03 PM
  #228
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Like the time they drafted luca sbisa...
I think you're misinterpreting what he's saying. I don't think he's saying the Flyers won't take a d-man in the first round, rather with the 5th overall, and the talent that will most likely be available there, the Flyers would likely go with a forward. Again with the 5th overall, not as a generalization of Flyers 1st round picks (though they are usually a forward).

FlyersFan61290 is offline  
Old
06-16-2013, 04:04 PM
  #229
TheKingPin
Registered User
 
TheKingPin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,014
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
Yeah I've been warming up to the idea of a Bernier-Mason tandem. If they don't move him during the draft I would definitely throw an offer sheet his way and try to use it as leverage for them to accept a Read for Bernier deal.
Yea they really should be worried they are not going to get more than a second. ESP with a team like us out there...they should be alllll over read given that they were not able to trade him at the deadline. Now the rfa option is very valid. I have no doubt bernier will be a top 15 goalie and therefore 3.3 mill a year is fine with me. Unless we are ready to have mason go for it which I would like to see

TheKingPin is offline  
Old
06-16-2013, 04:12 PM
  #230
achdumeingute
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NorCal
Posts: 2,283
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
I think you're misinterpreting what he's saying. I don't think he's saying the Flyers won't take a d-man in the first round, rather with the 5th overall, and the talent that will most likely be available there, the Flyers would likely go with a forward. Again with the 5th overall, not as a generalization of Flyers 1st round picks (though they are usually a forward).
He mentioned history, and philosophy. I think their past history and philosophy is to take who they think is best.

I'm 100% positive that is what they will do, and it doesn't bother me one bit.

achdumeingute is offline  
Old
06-16-2013, 05:02 PM
  #231
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
He mentioned history, and philosophy. I think their past history and philosophy is to take who they think is best.

I'm 100% positive that is what they will do, and it doesn't bother me one bit.
Yes and at 5th overall that would be a forward...

At least that's what I think he/she meant by his/her comment.

FlyersFan61290 is offline  
Old
06-16-2013, 05:33 PM
  #232
StevensCakeBakerBacker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Country:
Posts: 1,294
vCash: 500
If the Flyers can draft and develop forwards better than drafting and developing D, than I don't see the logic in drafting a D-man just I say, "There. We drafted a D-man."

They can create assets at the F position that can be used to trade for a proven D-man. I have no problem with that at all, it's the club playing to their strength(s) and being realistic about a weakness.

Pick a club that's great at drafting D-men, and they pretty much all have the proportionally inverse problem as the Flyers.

StevensCakeBakerBacker is offline  
Old
06-16-2013, 05:54 PM
  #233
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
If the Flyers can draft and develop forwards better than drafting and developing D, than I don't see the logic in drafting a D-man just I say, "There. We drafted a D-man."

They can create assets at the F position that can be used to trade for a proven D-man. I have no problem with that at all, it's the club playing to their strength(s) and being realistic about a weakness.

Pick a club that's great at drafting D-men, and they pretty much all have the proportionally inverse problem as the Flyers.
This whole Flyers can't draft and develop d-men is way overblown. Check out the Flyers drafts of the past 10 years (Wikipedia) and you'll notice an alarmingly low number draft picks used on defensemen (specifically in the first three rounds) and at that point it's just statistics that the Flyers don't have any home grown talent.

FlyersFan61290 is offline  
Old
06-16-2013, 06:03 PM
  #234
StevensCakeBakerBacker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Country:
Posts: 1,294
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
This whole Flyers can't draft and develop d-men is way overblown. Check out the Flyers drafts of the past 10 years (Wikipedia) and you'll notice an alarmingly low number draft picks used on defensemen (specifically in the first three rounds) and at that point it's just statistics that the Flyers don't have any home grown talent.
It's not really overblown when you consider 1 or 2 guys in the D corps are players that were actually drafted by Philly; to further that point, those drafted players are bottom pairing players.

StevensCakeBakerBacker is offline  
Old
06-16-2013, 06:12 PM
  #235
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
It's not really overblown when you consider 1 or 2 guys in the D corps are players that were actually drafted by Philly; to further that point, those drafted players are bottom pairing players.
I look it up a while ago but it was something like 10 players were picked in the first 3 rounds over the past 10 years (that's not much) and decent chuck played in the NHL. It's just statistics, IMO it really is over blown.

FlyersFan61290 is offline  
Old
06-16-2013, 09:02 PM
  #236
flyersfan187
Registered User
 
flyersfan187's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Morrisdale, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,856
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to flyersfan187 Send a message via Skype™ to flyersfan187
They should try to draft the best available player if they trade up to number 5. Whether it be a forward or a D. The D corps (if Streit is signed) isn't as bad as people think. The forwards were just as if not more at fault for the lack of defense than the D's.

flyersfan187 is offline  
Old
06-16-2013, 09:11 PM
  #237
healthyscratch
Registered User
 
healthyscratch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philly
Posts: 5,456
vCash: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
He mentioned history, and philosophy. I think their past history and philosophy is to take who they think is best.

I'm 100% positive that is what they will do, and it doesn't bother me one bit.
So you have the 8th overall pick. And you need defense, so you select Sean Couturier instead of Dougie Hamilton. And now the rumors are flying that you may trade Couturier ++ for another team's older defenseman. That bothers me.

We have one of, if not the most (with Streit), expensive D in the league. Why's that? Because we continually pay for other teams' defensemen. Can't keep living and surviving that way.

healthyscratch is offline  
Old
06-16-2013, 09:17 PM
  #238
Psuhockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,059
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
So you have the 8th overall pick. And you need defense, so you select Sean Couturier instead of Dougie Hamilton. And now the rumors are flying that you may trade Couturier ++ for another team's older defenseman. That bothers me.

We have one of, if not the most (with Streit), expensive D in the league. Why's that? Because we continually pay for other teams' defensemen. Can't keep living and surviving that way.
Any if they drafted Siemens instead of Hamilton, like they were rumored to do, they still would be trading for an expensive defensemen. Or they could of just drafted P.K. Subban instead of Kevin Marshall.

The problem isn't where the Flyers are drafting defensemen, it has the been who they have drafted. And not having 2nd rd picks where a lot of d prospects are chosen, also plays a huge part in having a very expensive defense.

Psuhockey is offline  
Old
06-16-2013, 09:39 PM
  #239
achdumeingute
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NorCal
Posts: 2,283
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
So you have the 8th overall pick. And you need defense, so you select Sean Couturier instead of Dougie Hamilton. And now the rumors are flying that you may trade Couturier ++ for another team's older defenseman. That bothers me.

We have one of, if not the most (with Streit), expensive D in the league. Why's that? Because we continually pay for other teams' defensemen. Can't keep living and surviving that way.
We wouldn't likely be in this scenario if we hadn't traded first and second rounders for the 5 years prior to 2011.

Complain ALL you want about trading picks. I hate that they have done that, its not how I would have operated. I'm not complaining about who they pick...because generally, the track record with who they get becoming an NHL player is as good as anybody. (basically 3 first rounders only in homers tenure before 2011). All are NHLers...the sample size is small...and that would be my complaint.

And, if we had the first pick overall, I'd take Mac. I think he is the best player available...basically Jonathan Towes 2013 edition. I know how much we need defense....

I also don't want to trade Couts (maybe in 3 years when his value is more). I personally don't think we should trade any young guys...trade the older guys to get more depth.

Rebuilding is....ok....

achdumeingute is offline  
Old
06-16-2013, 09:40 PM
  #240
achdumeingute
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NorCal
Posts: 2,283
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
And not having 2nd rd picks where a lot of d prospects are chosen, also plays a huge part in having a very expensive defense.
This is the primary issue.

achdumeingute is offline  
Old
06-17-2013, 02:29 AM
  #241
PhilaFlyers
Registered User
 
PhilaFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 8,298
vCash: 500
Just throwing this one out there, but what about Halak from St Louis? Would it take too much?

PhilaFlyers is offline  
Old
06-17-2013, 09:10 AM
  #242
StevensCakeBakerBacker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Country:
Posts: 1,294
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
So you have the 8th overall pick. And you need defense, so you select Sean Couturier instead of Dougie Hamilton. And now the rumors are flying that you may trade Couturier ++ for another team's older defenseman. That bothers me.

We have one of, if not the most (with Streit), expensive D in the league. Why's that? Because we continually pay for other teams' defensemen. Can't keep living and surviving that way.
Rumors are not events that have happened, nor are they a true reflection of the specifics regarding trade discussions. Why the hell would trade rumors get you angry at anyone named in the rumors?

StevensCakeBakerBacker is offline  
Old
06-17-2013, 09:18 AM
  #243
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
 
LegionOfDoom91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 15,679
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
So you have the 8th overall pick. And you need defense, so you select Sean Couturier instead of Dougie Hamilton. And now the rumors are flying that you may trade Couturier ++ for another team's older defenseman. That bothers me.

We have one of, if not the most (with Streit), expensive D in the league. Why's that? Because we continually pay for other teams' defensemen. Can't keep living and surviving that way.
I don't know why people still complain about this. You could argue we needed a center (especially one with strong defensive play) just as much at that time with Richards and Carter leaving.

LegionOfDoom91 is online now  
Old
06-17-2013, 09:25 AM
  #244
Psuhockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,059
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I don't know why people still complain about this. You could argue we needed a center (especially one with strong defensive play) just as much at that time with Richards and Carter leaving.
Because the grass is always greener. Hamilton had a good rookie year and Couturier had a ruff 2nd year. When Hamilton has his sophomore slump and Couturier breaks out, you won't here a word about this again. Unless of course Couturier was actually traded for Hamilton and how dumb the Flyers were when for doing that trade When Hamilton eventually struggles.

Psuhockey is offline  
Old
06-17-2013, 10:07 AM
  #245
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Because the grass is always greener. Hamilton had a good rookie year and Couturier had a ruff 2nd year. When Hamilton has his sophomore slump and Couturier breaks out, you won't here a word about this again. Unless of course Couturier was actually traded for Hamilton and how dumb the Flyers were when for doing that trade When Hamilton eventually struggles.
I know this isn't really the place for this but I doubt Couturier breaks out next years, all things considered I mean.

I can see it now, impatient Flyers fans calling for a trade. IMO he'll take another year or two, which is fine in my book considering he'll be about 23 yo.

FlyersFan61290 is offline  
Old
06-17-2013, 10:10 AM
  #246
healthyscratch
Registered User
 
healthyscratch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philly
Posts: 5,456
vCash: 633
Lets not branch off into seperate debates. My problem lies with he inability to draft and develop defensemen. Sorry if I don't believe in everything OnB, but it's an organeyezational flaw that needs to be corrected. How anyone can really defend them on it, isn't being realistic, IMO. Just my two cents.

healthyscratch is offline  
Old
06-17-2013, 10:32 AM
  #247
Psuhockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,059
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Lets not branch off into seperate debates. My problem lies with he inability to draft and develop defensemen. Sorry if I don't believe in everything OnB, but it's an organeyezational flaw that needs to be corrected. How anyone can really defend them on it, isn't being realistic, IMO. Just my two cents.
I think everyone agrees the team stinks at developing defensemen, just disagrees with the example you cited. Even if the Flyers drafted Hamilton, he might not be the same player. The Flyers may have rushed him into NHL duty right after the draft, instead of putting him back into juniors, setting back his development like Sbisa. Which gets to the heart as to why the Flyers stink at developing defensemen; no patience. Part of that is management, part of that is reaction to the whims of the fan base which a large portion has zero patience. Just look at the opinions you have with Couturier. A good portion see him as nothing more than a defensive center based solely on a 1 1/2 years in the NHL; time that in all probability should have been played in lower leagues. Yet these fans want to dump him for 2nd tier defenders like Yandle or Shattenkirk well before anybody knows what he will be at the NHL level, which could end up as a #1 centerman. Defensemen take significantly longer than forwards so patiently living thru the growing pains is not something management and a good portion of the fan base has the stomach for.

Psuhockey is offline  
Old
06-17-2013, 11:00 AM
  #248
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
 
FlyersFan61290's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
I think everyone agrees the team stinks at developing defensemen
I do not agree. I wouldn't say they are good but they rarely select d-men in the early rounds which statistically is where the majority of the impact players are found. If you break down the number of d-men selected per round, factor in the respective probability of having an NHL future (relative to the round they were selected in) you'll find the Flyers are right around average. I wish I saved the names and numbers (cause I'm too lazy to look them up again) but you guys could if you're interested. There was a thread talking about percent success per round with links to articles and all that which I used then I looked up the draft picks for the Flyers over the past 10 years on Wikipedia (I only used data for the first 3 rounds as they have the highest probability of success, after that it's a crapshoot if I recall correctly).

FlyersFan61290 is offline  
Old
06-17-2013, 11:46 AM
  #249
BobbyClarkeFan16
Registered User
 
BobbyClarkeFan16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: London Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
So you have the 8th overall pick. And you need defense, so you select Sean Couturier instead of Dougie Hamilton. And now the rumors are flying that you may trade Couturier ++ for another team's older defenseman. That bothers me.

We have one of, if not the most (with Streit), expensive D in the league. Why's that? Because we continually pay for other teams' defensemen. Can't keep living and surviving that way.
The biggest problem isn't the drafting as much as it's the constant upheaval and what seems to be a lack of direction on management's part. Every off season, Holmgren is always making big wholesale changes. There's a lack of patience with everyone involved and it's either blow things up or go for the quick fix. As a result, you see the mess that the Flyers have.

I also blame a lot of the mess on Peter Laviolette and his refusal to adopt any sort of system that places any sort of defensive structure with the forwards. It's funny how when Zherdev was here, he threw him under a bus for not being a good defensive player, yet I look at the team in it's current state and Zherdev is no worse than some of the forwards currently on the club and the fact that Laviolette continually allows guys to get away with not playing defense. That's what partially makes the defense look much worse than what it really is.

BobbyClarkeFan16 is offline  
Old
06-17-2013, 12:04 PM
  #250
Psuhockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,059
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I also blame a lot of the mess on Peter Laviolette and his refusal to adopt any sort of system that places any sort of defensive structure with the forwards. It's funny how when Zherdev was here, he threw him under a bus for not being a good defensive player, yet I look at the team in it's current state and Zherdev is no worse than some of the forwards currently on the club and the fact that Laviolette continually allows guys to get away with not playing defense. That's what partially makes the defense look much worse than what it really is.
See Danny Briere

Psuhockey is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:47 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.