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06-16-2013, 04:51 PM
  #26
OntheBackcheck
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Originally Posted by crt View Post
Jets already have their defensive liability in Buff.
It's a bit of a stretch to call Letang a D liability. I do think that another top end D is not the top need for the Jets and giving up their best young player would be foolish. The Penguins need a forward who plays a very responsible two way game for their first or second line.

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06-16-2013, 04:57 PM
  #27
wej20
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Originally Posted by OntheBackcheck View Post
It's a bit of a stretch to call Letang a D liability. I do think that another top end D is not the top need for the Jets and giving up their best young player would be foolish. The Penguins need a forward who plays a very responsible two way game for their first or second line.
I'm not surprised HFboards is well know for concentrating on what players have done most recently (except when it comes to prospects/picks which have unlimited potential). Letang's at least average defensively and good enough to handle top 4 defensive minutes on any contender. If he stays with the Pens they need to find him a long term partner, maybe Scott Harrington can be the guy if Letang sticks around long enough.

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06-16-2013, 05:36 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by domaug View Post


ask Dustin Jeffrey, Tanner Glass, and Zach Boychuk how Malkin always fed them "easy goals".
I said Neal is a pure finisher so I don't see what your problem is with my post. Neal needs Malkin to set him up. Bringing up Tanner Glass and those guys is ridiculous. Glass can barely accept a pass, much less put it in the net - stone hands, no shot.

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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
That's why Pens have had it so easy finding wingers for Crosby and Malkin, they both just inflate numbers of any player they hit the ice with.
I don't see how you're arguing that. Do you think Kunitz would put up similar numbers without Crosby? Or how about Pascal Dupuis? If you answered yes to either of those, I can't help you. It's a legitimate concern that Letang wouldn't put up great numbers without two of the best forwards in the game to feed the puck to. The fact that the Pens can't find more decent wingers doesn't imply those two don't inflate their linemates numbers. Goalscorers are just always at a premium.

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06-16-2013, 05:45 PM
  #29
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That's the complete opposite direction the Jets need to go in. They need impact forwards and really can't afford anymore defensively suspect d-men.

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06-16-2013, 05:46 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by vBurmi View Post
I don't see how you're arguing that. Do you think Kunitz would put up similar numbers without Crosby? Or how about Pascal Dupuis? If you answered yes to either of those, I can't help you. It's a legitimate concern that Letang wouldn't put up great numbers without two of the best forwards in the game to feed the puck to. The fact that the Pens can't find more decent wingers doesn't imply those two don't inflate their linemates numbers. Goalscorers are just always at a premium.
Dupuis put up 59 points last year playing with Jordan Staal and Steve Sullivan. Chris Kunitz's best full season was last year with Malkin and Neal but it was only 1 goal better than his best season in Anaheim. I'd back Letang to put up 50 points on almost all the teams in the league, probably closer to 60 on the top teams.

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06-16-2013, 05:49 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by vBurmi View Post
I said Neal is a pure finisher so I don't see what your problem is with my post. Neal needs Malkin to set him up. Bringing up Tanner Glass and those guys is ridiculous. Glass can barely accept a pass, much less put it in the net - stone hands, no shot.
it's not ridiculous. all three of those guys were paired up with Malkin at some point of the season and didn't produce squat. i think it's ridiculous to assume Neal needs a crutch to score goals. he's not a 40-goal player without Malkin, but he's not a bum. he'd put up about 20-25 goals without Malkin.

it's also ridiculous to assume that Malkin is the only reason players on his line score points. you need to be able to capitalize on your opportunities (which is what Neal has done). Glass, Jeffrey, Boychuk, etc. haven't.

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06-16-2013, 06:25 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by domaug View Post
it's not ridiculous. all three of those guys were paired up with Malkin at some point of the season and didn't produce squat. i think it's ridiculous to assume Neal needs a crutch to score goals. he's not a 40-goal player without Malkin, but he's not a bum. he'd put up about 20-25 goals without Malkin.

it's also ridiculous to assume that Malkin is the only reason players on his line score points. you need to be able to capitalize on your opportunities (which is what Neal has done). Glass, Jeffrey, Boychuk, etc. haven't.
Again, you're completely missing my point. I said Neal was a good finisher. I also said he was a pure finisher, not someone who'd make opportunities on his own. Your own admittance that his goal production could drop by up to 50% without Malkin proves my point. Winnipeg doesn't have anything close to an equivalent of Malkin for him to play with.

Bringing up grinders who no one has ever confused with finishers is completely irrelevant to what we're discussing.

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06-16-2013, 06:40 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by vBurmi View Post
Again, you're completely missing my point. I said Neal was a good finisher. I also said he was a pure finisher, not someone who'd make opportunities on his own. Your own admittance that his goal production could drop by up to 50% without Malkin proves my point. Winnipeg doesn't have anything close to an equivalent of Malkin for him to play with.

Bringing up grinders who no one has ever confused with finishers is completely irrelevant to what we're discussing.
because of how you worded it ("Malkin feeding him easy goals"), it's relevant. you worded it as if Neal had nothing to do with the goals he scored, as if Malkin did all of the work and Neal just leached off of Malkin's glorious setups and opportunities. if those were "easy goals", it's interesting to mention that those other players (Glass, Jeffrey, Boychuk) didn't do nearly as well as Neal did.

if you left it at "Neal has trouble setting up his own scoring chances", i wouldn't have an issue with it. but you didn't.

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06-16-2013, 07:37 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
Dupuis put up 59 points last year playing with Jordan Staal and Steve Sullivan. Chris Kunitz's best full season was last year with Malkin and Neal but it was only 1 goal better than his best season in Anaheim. I'd back Letang to put up 50 points on almost all the teams in the league, probably closer to 60 on the top teams.
On a whole the Pens scored 37 more goals than the Jets last season. It's not a stretch to think Letang won't be picking up as many assists on a team that just flat out scores less goals. Letang also wouldn't be adding 37 goals of offense, especially when the guy in his spot at Right-Handed D is Dustin Byfuglien who is better than or equal to Letang in offensive production.

As for the Neal argument, look at what Neal was able to do in Dallas. Did he magically just become a much better player after the trade? Jumping from a previous high of 55 points in a season to 81 points? No. He got better linemates and a system that is more catered to him, Bylsma has a lot of set plays that use Neal shooting straight off a won faceoff, for example.

When Neal is offered (not that he would be Pittsburgh needs winger in a bad way) Winnipeg has to look at the Dallas Stars James Neal point production as what they can expect. Still a great player, but he wouldn't be putting up more than a point per game in Winnipeg.

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06-17-2013, 02:47 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Sweech View Post
On a whole the Pens scored 37 more goals than the Jets last season. It's not a stretch to think Letang won't be picking up as many assists on a team that just flat out scores less goals. Letang also wouldn't be adding 37 goals of offense, especially when the guy in his spot at Right-Handed D is Dustin Byfuglien who is better than or equal to Letang in offensive production.

As for the Neal argument, look at what Neal was able to do in Dallas. Did he magically just become a much better player after the trade? Jumping from a previous high of 55 points in a season to 81 points? No. He got better linemates and a system that is more catered to him, Bylsma has a lot of set plays that use Neal shooting straight off a won faceoff, for example.

When Neal is offered (not that he would be Pittsburgh needs winger in a bad way) Winnipeg has to look at the Dallas Stars James Neal point production as what they can expect. Still a great player, but he wouldn't be putting up more than a point per game in Winnipeg.
well obviously Letang's not going to be able to put up 50 points if he doesn't play on a teams top PP unit, what dman is capable of that?

Neal has grown as a player but he's probably a 30-30 player on another team but he has excellent chemistry with Malkin and has been the trigger man on the Pens top PP unit which he might not have on another team.

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06-17-2013, 05:55 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
well obviously Letang's not going to be able to put up 50 points if he doesn't play on a teams top PP unit, what dman is capable of that?

Neal has grown as a player but he's probably a 30-30 player on another team but he has excellent chemistry with Malkin and has been the trigger man on the Pens top PP unit which he might not have on another team.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Neither Neal nor Letang would produce the way they are, if they were on the Jets.

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06-17-2013, 06:34 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
That's why Pens have had it so easy finding wingers for Crosby and Malkin, they both just inflate numbers of any player they hit the ice with.
Not sure if this is sarcasm but it is true. Kunitz, Dupuis, and Neal don't put up the same numbers playing with different centers. Didn't Neal go almost half a season without scoring a goal while Malkin and Crosby were hurt?

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06-17-2013, 12:45 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by duffy9748 View Post
Not sure if this is sarcasm but it is true. Kunitz, Dupuis, and Neal don't put up the same numbers playing with different centers. Didn't Neal go almost half a season without scoring a goal while Malkin and Crosby were hurt?
Did you not read my post about Kunitz and Dupuis? Neal is the only one who has achieved a significant bump in production from playing with Geno, he did go through a rough first 20 games here but he'd just been traded and he was playing with Alexei Kovalev and Mark Letestu.

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06-17-2013, 01:08 PM
  #39
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Next time look at team needs OP. Regardless of value, your proposal is horrible for Jets and sets us way back &/or forces us to make multiple other big name player trades to get any semblance of balance on our team.

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