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Flyers sign Mark Streit to a multi-year deal [4 yrs, $21m; $5.25 AAV] (post #1)

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06-17-2013, 09:10 AM
  #376
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Originally Posted by GingerFetish View Post
Why would it be horrendous? Not questioning, I just want to learn.
neither of them are puck movers and they both lack speed

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06-17-2013, 09:11 AM
  #377
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Why would it be horrendous? Not questioning, I just want to learn.
Transitional game would suffer. Both aren't very quick, and aren't great with the puck. To compensate, they both play strong positionally and hog up space with size so they do not get beat by quickness. They are better paired with better skaters who have better stick-handling abilities. You need a defenseman who the opposing forwards fear moving the puck such that they retreat once said defenseman has true control and passing / skating options are open. Remember when Pronger had the puck in our end? Opposing teams would retreat due to fear of his stretch pass and knowledge that his passing skills and size were enough that pressing him was a waste of time.

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06-17-2013, 09:54 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You continuously misread the Hyka situation. The problem with him is that he would have clearly been a fantastic use of a low draft pick, but the Flyers missed on him because Holmgren didn't read the rules. It's not that people expected him to be a sure fire top liner and HOFer, it's that there was clearly a decent guy available to use a lower round pick on, but Homer drafted inferior players instead. It's the kind of idiotic mistake that shouldn't happen, a GM should know the damned rules that govern his job.

You keep throwing this "Everyone thought Hyka was the newest addition to the Roman pantheon of deities" strawman around, when it's really not the source of people's indignation over not drafting him.
No need for strawmen. The Flyers made a mistake with his eligibility. Should not happen, true, but it did. Oh well, shoot the GM for it if you want, you're just being melodramatic.

Funny thing is that the Flyers had the chance to correct this, the most egregious error in hockey management history. But as it turns out, they didn't think Hyka was worth drafting ahead of the five the guys they took before LA took him at 171st.

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=635491

Given the furor, I'm surprised he lasted so long. Good grief.

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06-17-2013, 10:21 AM
  #379
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No need for strawmen. The Flyers made a mistake with his eligibility. Should not happen, true, but it did. Oh well, shoot the GM for it if you want, you're just being melodramatic.

Funny thing is that the Flyers had the chance to correct this, the most egregious error in hockey management history. But as it turns out, they didn't think Hyka was worth drafting ahead of the five the guys they took before LA took him at 171st.

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=635491

Given the furor, I'm surprised he lasted so long. Good grief.
It's flat out unacceptable for a GM to be unaware of the rules that govern his job, and Homer has done it a few times now. I can't wait to see what happens with a new CBA. Missing out on Hyka was a missed opportunity (I'm not saying he's amazing, like you and DFF are apparently claiming I think with your hyperbole) to get a potential low-risk, high-reward guy with a low pick. Homer didn't get to make that gamble because he didn't understand the rules. That's pretty concerning.

What else does he not understand?

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06-17-2013, 10:24 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You continuously misread the Hyka situation. The problem with him is that he would have clearly been a fantastic use of a low draft pick, but the Flyers missed on him because Holmgren didn't read the rules. It's not that people expected him to be a sure fire top liner and HOFer, it's that there was clearly a decent guy available to use a lower round pick on, but Homer drafted inferior players instead. It's the kind of idiotic mistake that shouldn't happen, a GM should know the damned rules that govern his job.

You keep throwing this "Everyone thought Hyka was the newest addition to the Roman pantheon of deities" strawman around, when it's really not the source of people's indignation over not drafting him.
But it really isn't. I understand the crux of the argument was that Homer blew it. But there was also a lot Hyka-love even before we knew about the mishap. After he scored that goal in his first preseason game people were in love with the guy. Then the CBA thing went down and it was attack Homer for being an idiot AND because Hyka was a sure-fire can't miss prospect that they had ranked in the fourth round but didn't draft. Then it was let's draft him again next year!

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06-17-2013, 10:26 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's flat out unacceptable for a GM to be unaware of the rules that govern his job, and Homer has done it a few times now. I can't wait to see what happens with a new CBA. Missing out on Hyka was a missed opportunity (I'm not saying he's amazing, like you and DFF are apparently claiming I think with your hyperbole) to get a potential low-risk, high-reward guy with a low pick. Homer didn't get to make that gamble because he didn't understand the rules. That's pretty concerning.

What else does he not understand?
It's not hyperbole. Go back and look at some of the Hyka related threads. It was all about 1) how stupid Homer is for blowing it with the CBA followed up by 2) how great Hyka is/will be. You can't just ignore the second part because people also said the first part.

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06-17-2013, 10:26 AM
  #382
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But it really isn't. I understand the crux of the argument was that Homer blew it. But there was also a lot Hyka-love even before we knew about the mishap. After he scored that goal in his first preseason game people were in love with the guy. Then the CBA thing went down and it was attack Homer for being an idiot AND because Hyka was a sure-fire can't miss prospect that they had ranked in the fourth round but didn't draft. Then it was let's draft him again next year!
Do quote all these posts that call him a sure fire can't miss prospect? I don't recall seeing any of those. What I recall is people saying he could be a fantastic use of a lower pick.

Do you remember how he played? He was pretty damned good in those games, you know. It's not like people were interested in him for fun. Hell, we know Homer was interested in him, he just didn't know how to do his job correctly. Again. So....by your usual logic, because Homer was interested in him...that makes us correct, right? I mean, if a GM wanted him, that makes him a legit guy.

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06-17-2013, 10:37 AM
  #383
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What I remember about Hyka was the majority of his lovers saying he would of been a better pick than Mathers.

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06-17-2013, 10:54 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Do quote all these posts that call him a sure fire can't miss prospect? I don't recall seeing any of those. What I recall is people saying he could be a fantastic use of a lower pick.
I'm sure no one used the words "can't miss" about him, but there wereplenty of people who acted as though he was a can't miss prospect. Last year everyone was ready to use a second rounder on the guy. The kid would have a good night in the Q and people would be posting "2 more points for Hyka " and talk about how Homer better "rectify his mistake" and draft the guy.

Quote:
Do you remember how he played? He was pretty damned good in those games, you know. It's not like people were interested in him for fun. Hell, we know Homer was interested in him, he just didn't know how to do his job correctly. Again. So....by your usual logic, because Homer was interested in him...that makes us correct, right? I mean, if a GM wanted him, that makes him a legit guy.
I never said Hyka wasn't a good player or not worthy of being drafted. I would have had no problem had they drafted him last year (or the year before). But people acting like Homer and company missed the boat on such a gem is laughable. My biggest issue with this whole scenario was people being up in arms because in an interview Homer said he "forgot" about Hyka throughout the course of the draft, which upset people because of how good Hyka was and how absurd it was for a GM to "forget" a player.

EDIT: Also there is this little doozie, written by the HFBoards recently annointed "World's Greatest Journalist," Bill Meltzer...

Quote:
There is still something that has me confused about the whole debacle in which the NHL would not allow the Flyers to sign undrafted 18-year-old forward Tomas Hyka to an entry-level contract after his impressive performance at camp.

Under Section 8.9 (b)(iii) of the collective bargaining agreement, it states that an NHL team may only sign an undrafted player who played in Europe the previous season if he "was age 22 or older at the time of the last Entry Draft and signed an SPC which was signed and registered with the League between the conclusion of the Entry Draft and the commencement of the next NHL Season."

Obviously, this section of the CBA disqualifies Hyka from signing with the Flyers (or any other NHL team) as a rookie free agent. No quibble there.

From all appearances, however, the NHL has been inconsistent in enforcing this rule. Take the case of Sergei Bobrovsky, who:

a) was never drafted by the Flyers or any NHL club
b) played in the KHL in 2009-10, and
c) as someone born on Sept. 20, 1988, was 21 years old when he signing with the Flyers on May 6, 2010 and was 20 years at the time of the most recent (2009) Entry Draft.

Unless there's a contradictory section of the CBA that could have cited to make Bobrovsky eligible -- and I have no idea what could be -- his qualifications to sign with the Flyers last year should been denied on the same basis as the 18-year-old Hyka.

In Hyka's case, in fact, there was far more justification to bend the rules about where he played last season and declare him a North American player (which would have allowed him to be signed right now).

Since the NHL already has a precedent for overlooking the CBA's European rookie free agent age rule and also of allowing teams to hold onto the rights of drafted players from countries that no longer have a transfer agreement with the NHL (including the Czech Republic), I think you can easily justify overlooking the CBA's rules about where someone played the previous season if he's playing in North America at the time the NHL team attempted to sign him.

I suppose it's all a moot point now that Hyka is back with Gastineau in the QMJHL but, if I were the Flyers, I would have argued this one pretty vehemently. You can't bend certain rules and then say that others must be followed to the letter.

By the way, Hyka had a four-point effort (2 goals, 2 assists) in Gatineau's 6-2 win over Blainville-Boisbriand last night. The game stat sheet is here.
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...92411/45/38330

So either Meltzer also doesn't (didn't) understand the CBA, or this possibly may give some insight in to why things went down the way they would. I am not a CBA expert, so maybe someone can talk about whether or not Meltzer is accurate on this, but I don't remember seeing this back in the day, because it surely would have fueled my defense of Homer. Haha.

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06-17-2013, 12:17 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's flat out unacceptable for a GM to be unaware of the rules that govern his job, and Homer has done it a few times now. I can't wait to see what happens with a new CBA. Missing out on Hyka was a missed opportunity (I'm not saying he's amazing, like you and DFF are apparently claiming I think with your hyperbole) to get a potential low-risk, high-reward guy with a low pick. Homer didn't get to make that gamble because he didn't understand the rules. That's pretty concerning.

What else does he not understand?
Probably, like the rest of us, why your knickers are in such a knot about nothing.

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06-17-2013, 12:19 PM
  #386
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Probably, like the rest of us, why your knickers are in such a knot about nothing.



You see no reason at all to be concerned about the GM repeatedly failing to know/understand the CBA? If you haven't heard of it, it's a really important document.

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06-17-2013, 12:25 PM
  #387
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Holmgren can do no wrong, and when he does its just hindsight.

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06-17-2013, 12:34 PM
  #388
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This is why I think one of the aforementioned players seeking a raise will not be here when the time comes. Couturier would have the biggest return but Read is getting the biggest raise, so I think it will be one of those two. Depending on what the return is, I am ok with either scenario.
I'd be sad to see Read or any of the above players go, but I guess that is what will have to happen. I'm concerned about losing Read though because if he goes the team won't really have a full second line unless we get someone good and cheap through a trade, a prospect comes up and plays very well, or one of Schenn or Couturier moves to the wing.

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B Schenn's actual cap hit should go down if he has another average season. 2 years, $2.75m AAV.
True, though I think he will do well enough to earn at least 3 million. He put up 26 points in 47 games. If there were 35 more games and he didn't miss any more of them I don't think it would be unreasonable to guess that he would have ten more points. 36 points in his sophomore year isn't so bad, so I expect his totals will be in the 40s next season.

Is there no cap cushion this season because the CBA is going to be revisited at the end of the season?

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06-17-2013, 12:34 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post



You see no reason at all to be concerned about the GM repeatedly failing to know/understand the CBA? If you haven't heard of it, it's a really important document.
What of that Meltzer article I just posted? Is it possible that there was a miscommunication with the NHL about the rules?

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06-17-2013, 12:40 PM
  #390
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What of that Meltzer article I just posted? Is it possible that there was a miscommunication with the NHL about the rules?
Sure, but it doesn't make "forgetting" about a player any better, now change the fact that there are other situations where Homer didn't know the CBA.

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06-17-2013, 01:02 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Sure, but it doesn't make "forgetting" about a player any better, now change the fact that there are other situations where Homer didn't know the CBA.
Haha, oh yeah, the "forgetting" argument. If you read the quotes it was clear that Homer wasn't literally saying that the player was forgotten about, but rather the direction of the draft the changed and their draft board changed etc., which I guarantee happens every single year with every single team.

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06-17-2013, 01:11 PM
  #392
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Are we still going on about Hyka? Jesus. As Meltzer pointed out, the rules which everyone loves to blame Holmgren for not understanding are unclear at best. It's such a non-issue. Holmgren and co. thought they could pull a fast one on the NHL by picking Mathers then swiping Hyka after the draft. Best case scenario: we get two prospects for the price of one. Worst case scenario: We end up with Mathers only and watch both of them become absolutely nothing at the NHL level.

Big freaking deal. I commend Holmgren for trying to walk away from the draft with an extra player. It didn't work, but who the hell cares? We're talking about seventh rounders.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Holmgren can do no wrong, and when he does its just hindsight.
This is particularly ironic coming from the guy who approved of the Bob trade then 12 months later criticized Holmgren for making it. Wanna talk about hindsight?



Flyers fans are so fickle. I have my gripes about Holmgren; there are certainly many reasons for people to question his judgment. The annoyance here is with those who see everything as a reason to question his judgment.

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06-17-2013, 01:32 PM
  #393
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Are we still going on about Hyka? Jesus. As Meltzer pointed out, the rules which everyone loves to blame Holmgren for not understanding are unclear at best. It's such a non-issue. Holmgren and co. thought they could pull a fast one on the NHL by picking Mathers then swiping Hyka after the draft. Best case scenario: we get two prospects for the price of one. Worst case scenario: We end up with Mathers only and watch both of them become absolutely nothing at the NHL level.

Big freaking deal. I commend Holmgren for trying to walk away from the draft with an extra player. It didn't work, but who the hell cares? We're talking about seventh rounders.




This is particularly ironic coming from the guy who approved of the Bob trade then 12 months later criticized Holmgren for making it. Wanna talk about hindsight?



Flyers fans are so fickle. I have my gripes about Holmgren; there are certainly many reasons for people to question his judgment. The annoyance here is with those who see everything as a reason to question his judgment.
If only his CBA/Cap gaffes were limited to seventh round, fringe players.

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06-17-2013, 01:50 PM
  #394
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I never said Hyka wasn't a good player or not worthy of being drafted. I would have had no problem had they drafted him last year (or the year before). But people acting like Homer and company missed the boat on such a gem is laughable. My biggest issue with this whole scenario was people being up in arms because in an interview Homer said he "forgot" about Hyka throughout the course of the draft, which upset people because of how good Hyka was and how absurd it was for a GM to "forget" a player.

EDIT: Also there is this little doozie, written by the HFBoards recently annointed "World's Greatest Journalist," Bill Meltzer...



http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...92411/45/38330

So either Meltzer also doesn't (didn't) understand the CBA, or this possibly may give some insight in to why things went down the way they would. I am not a CBA expert, so maybe someone can talk about whether or not Meltzer is accurate on this, but I don't remember seeing this back in the day, because it surely would have fueled my defense of Homer. Haha.
Here is the CBA situation with these two players:
Quote:
CBA 8.9 Eligibility for Play in the League. No Player shall be eligible for play in the League unless he:

(a) had been claimed in the last Entry Draft, or was ineligible for claim under Section 8.4; or

(b) had been eligible for claim in the last Entry Draft, but was unclaimed, and:

(i) had played hockey in North America the prior season and was age 20 or older at the time of the last Entry Draft, and signed an SPC which was signed and registered with the League between the conclusion of the Entry Draft and commencement of the next NHL Season.

(ii) had played hockey in North America the prior season and was under age 20 at the time of the last Entry Draft, and signed an SPC which was signed and registered with the League between the conclusion of the Entry Draft and commencement of the Major Juniors season (except that if such Player had signed an NHL tryout form, which was signed and registered with the League during the aforesaid time period, then the deadline for signing and registering with the League an SPC with such try-out Club shall be the commencement of the NHL Season).

(iii) had played hockey outside of North America in the prior season and was age 22 or older at the time of the last Entry Draft and signed an SPC which was signed and registered with the League between the conclusion of the Entry Draft and the commencement of the next NHL Season.

(iv) The words "eligible for claim in the last Entry Draft" in subparagraph (b) above mean "eligible for claim in all rounds of the last Entry Draft." The words "the prior season" in subparagraph (i), (ii) and (iii) above mean "a full season prior to the last Entry Draft."

8.10 Age of Players. As used in this Article, "age 18" means a Player reaching his eighteenth birthday between January 1 next preceding the Entry Draft and September 15 next following the Entry Draft, both dates included; "age 19" means a Player reaching his nineteenth birthday by no later than September 15 in the calendar year of the Entry Draft; "age 20" means a Player reaching his twentieth birthday by no later than December 31 in the calendar year of the Entry Draft; "age 21" means a Player reaching his twenty-first birthday by December 31 in the calendar year of the Entry Draft and "age 22" means a Player reaching his twenty-second birthday by December 31 in the calendar year of the Entry Draft.

Hyka went unclaimed in the 2011 draft and played the 2010-2011 season outside of North America with Mlada Boleslav BK. Born on 3/23/93 Hyka was considered age 18 by the CBA definition 8.10. Looking at the Eligibility for Play rules Hyka would not have met any of them:

* 8.9(a) No, he was not claimed in the last draft and was eligible to be drafted.

* 8.9(b)(i) No, he did not play in North America the prior season.

* 8.9(b)(ii) No, he did not play in North America the prior season.

* 8.9(b)(iii) No, he was considered age 18 by the CBA draft rules.

As Hyka was not Eligible for Play in the League he could not be signed.


Quote:
8.4 Eligibility for Claim.

(a) All Players age 18 or older are eligible for claim in the Entry Draft,
except:

(i) a Player on the Reserve List of a Club, other than as a try-out;

(ii) a Player who has been claimed in two prior Entry Drafts;

(iii) a Player who previously played in the League and became a Free Agent pursuant to this Agreement;

(iv) a Player age 21 or older who: (A) has not been selected in a
previous Entry Draft and (B) played hockey for at least one season
in North America when he was age 18, 19, or 20 and shall be
eligible to enter the League as an Unrestricted Free Agent pursuant
to Article 10.1(d); and

(v) a Player age 22 or older who has not been selected in a previous
Entry Draft and shall be eligible to enter the League as an Unrestricted Free Agent pursuant to Article 10.1(d).
Bobrovsky went unclaimed in the 2009 draft. By the age definitions Bobrovsky would have been considered age 22 for the upcoming 2010 draft since he would turn 22 before the end of the calendar year. Under CBA 8.4(a)(v) Bobrovsky was no longer eligible to be drafted and thus could be signed as a UFA. Bobrovsky met the criteria in 8.9(a) that he was eligible to play in the NHL for the 2010-2011 season because he was not eligible to be claimed in the prior draft.


Last edited by mouser: 06-17-2013 at 02:06 PM.
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06-17-2013, 01:57 PM
  #395
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
If only his CBA/Cap gaffes were limited to seventh round, fringe players.
The only one that has even remotely caused a problem is the Pronger deal. Hyka is not a big deal, if they thought he was worth a pick, they had several rounds to take him last year and passed. Talbot is not a big deal, they actually saved $100k a year because of the mistake. Is there anything else that I am missing?

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06-17-2013, 02:00 PM
  #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Here is the CBA situation with these two players:



Hyka went unclaimed in the 2011 draft and played the 2010-2011 season outside of North America with Mlada Boleslav BK. Born on 3/23/93 Hyka was considered age 18 by the CBA definition 8.10. Looking at the Eligibility for Play rules Hyka would not have met any of them:

* 8.9(a) No, he was not claimed in the last draft and was eligible to be drafted.

* 8.9(b)(i) No, he did not play in North America the prior season.

* 8.9(b)(ii) No, he did not play in North America the prior season.

* 8.9(b)(iii) No, he was considered age 18 by the CBA draft rules.

As Hyka was not Eligible for Play in the League he could not be signed.


Have to do a little more digging on Bobrovsky. By letter I don't think the Flyers should have been able to sign him, but there may have been something odd going on with Russia and the NHL not having a transfer agreement.
And that is fine. I am not saying that he shouldn't be responsible for his mistakes, only that this mistake is not really a big deal in the scheme of things. If he ever makes the NHL, then I'll say it was a mistake, but they had seven rounds to draft him in 2011 and didn't (apparently because of either a mistaken understanding of the CBA or "forgetting" about him) and then had seven rounds to draft him in 2012 and didn't. If the Flyers made a mistake so did all 29 other teams.

Also, at the time Hyka was playing in North America, so I am sure that probably added to the confusion about his eligibility.

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06-17-2013, 02:01 PM
  #397
LegionOfDoom91
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
The only one that has even remotely caused a problem is the Pronger deal. Hyka is not a big deal, if they thought he was worth a pick, they had several rounds to take him last year and passed. Talbot is not a big deal, they actually saved $100k a year because of the mistake. Is there anything else that I am missing?
Can you explain that one? I literally never heard of that one.

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06-17-2013, 02:11 PM
  #398
Larry44
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Haha, oh yeah, the "forgetting" argument. If you read the quotes it was clear that Homer wasn't literally saying that the player was forgotten about, but rather the direction of the draft the changed and their draft board changed etc., which I guarantee happens every single year with every single team.
Everything Homer tells the media is a lie, unless it can misinterpreted as the absolute truth for purposes of argument.

That our entire scouting staff, including the guys actually running the draft, 'forgot' Hyka shows just what an impression he made on them.

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06-17-2013, 02:19 PM
  #399
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Can you explain that one? I literally never heard of that one.
Talbot's initial contract violated the NHL contract structure because his last season's salary was less than 50% of the previous year's salary. Upon adjusting it, it was agreed to reduce the salary in the 4th year I believe to allow that the final year was no longer in violation.

Edit: Here's a better explanation of the issue

http://thehockeyguys.net/how-did-the...bots-contract/

They fixed it how the above article suggests.


Last edited by Broad Street Elite: 06-17-2013 at 02:24 PM.
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06-17-2013, 02:22 PM
  #400
Beef Invictus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
The only one that has even remotely caused a problem is the Pronger deal. Hyka is not a big deal, if they thought he was worth a pick, they had several rounds to take him last year and passed. Talbot is not a big deal, they actually saved $100k a year because of the mistake. Is there anything else that I am missing?
The Pronger one is a big one. The fact that more easily avoidable mistakes continued after that is a big red flag. Someone is off the ball, which means there is a higher-than-acceptable chance of another major screw up happening...especially since there have been some changes this year. It's flat out unacceptable. Hyka himself isn't the problem. He isn't the main issue. Just, forget about him and his potential here. The core issue is that someone screwed something up, again. Holmgren didn't get it, the people paid to advise him on this stuff didn't get it...and I don't remember seeing any sort of turnover to get someone more knowledgeable brought in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Everything Homer tells the media is a lie, unless it can misinterpreted as the absolute truth for purposes of argument.

That our entire scouting staff, including the guys actually running the draft, 'forgot' Hyka shows just what an impression he made on them.
That's why I use "forgot" in quotes. Either they actually forgot about him, or they mucked up the rules and couldn't sign him, then said "oh who? Oops, forgot about him. Carry on, nothing to see."

Either way, something didn't go right. Something a clear understanding of the rules could have probably avoided. That curdles my beef.

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