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Old
06-17-2013, 12:34 PM
  #251
BernieParent
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Originally Posted by PhilaFlyers View Post
Just throwing this one out there, but what about Halak from St Louis? Would it take too much?
I'm on board with exploring this. Reports have indicated serious hurt feelings between Halak and Hitchcock, and Halak is signed for another year at $3.75 million (actual salary $4.5 million). He has shown that he plays well in a platoon scenario. Health issues are a concern, though.

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06-17-2013, 12:50 PM
  #252
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Count me in on the Halak idea

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06-17-2013, 12:59 PM
  #253
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Bernier or bust for me.

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Old
06-17-2013, 01:09 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Lets not branch off into seperate debates. My problem lies with he inability to draft and develop defensemen. Sorry if I don't believe in everything OnB, but it's an organeyezational flaw that needs to be corrected. How anyone can really defend them on it, isn't being realistic, IMO. Just my two cents.
and I don't see any evidence that they have issues drafting and developing d men. They haven't picked one in top rounds in the last 2 years, I doesn't mean they won't this year. Before the last 2 years, they have not had much in the way of top picks (rounds 1/2) previously under PHs admin run.

On guy they drafted is playing (Sbisa). One guy isn't (Marshall). Not exactly the sample size to make a statement they don't know what they are doing.

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06-17-2013, 01:22 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
So you have the 8th overall pick. And you need defense, so you select Sean Couturier instead of Dougie Hamilton. And now the rumors are flying that you may trade Couturier ++ for another team's older defenseman. That bothers me.

We have one of, if not the most (with Streit), expensive D in the league. Why's that? Because we continually pay for other teams' defensemen. Can't keep living and surviving that way.
We needed defense? Defense was our strength in the cup run and only became stronger after adding Mez and Odonnell to our bottom pairing. At the time they drafted Coots, the organization was very happy with the D, so much so that they were willing to trade their two franchise centermen and go all in on Pronger and Timonen. They throught they had a 2-3 year window with the current D, they werent thinking we need Dougie Hamilton down the road. Obviously when Pronger got hurt, everything changed...but at the time in 2011, Coots was the obvious choice.

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06-17-2013, 02:35 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
and I don't see any evidence that they have issues drafting and developing d men. They haven't picked one in top rounds in the last 2 years, I doesn't mean they won't this year. Before the last 2 years, they have not had much in the way of top picks (rounds 1/2) previously under PHs admin run.

On guy they drafted is playing (Sbisa). One guy isn't (Marshall). Not exactly the sample size to make a statement they don't know what they are doing.
Wow. I'll go back 20 years for ya. 164 draft picks, 52 defensemen. 3 defensemen in the first round. Only 6 have had any significant NHL playing time. No issues?

2012
3rd Shayne Gostisbehere
4th Frederic Larsson
5th Reece Wilcox
7th Valeri Vasiliev

2011
4th Colin Suellentrop

2010
6th Nick Luukko
7th Ricard Blidstrand

2009
3rd Simon Bertilsson
7th Oliver Lauridsen

2008
1st Luca Sbisa
3rd Marc-Andre Bourdon

2007
2nd Kevin Marshall

2006
2nd Mike Ratchuk
2nd Denis Bodrov
4th Joonas Lehtivuori

2005
3rd Oskars Bartulis

2004
4th R.J. Anderson
5th Chris Zarb
8th Travis Gawryletz

2003
3rd Alexandre Picard

2002
1st Joni Pitkanen
4th Rosario Ruggeri
6th Nikita Korovkin
6th Joey Mormina

2001
1st Jeff Woywitka
5th Jussi Timonen
6th Dennis Seidenberg
7th Thierry Douville

2000
8th Regan Kelly

1999
4th Jeff Feniak

1998
2nd Jason Beckett
2nd Ian Forbes
4th J.P. Morin
9th Bruno St. Jacques
9th Sergei Skrobot

1997
3rd Kris Mallette
4th Mikhail Chernov
6th Jordon Flodell
8th Marko Kauppinen
9th Par Styf

1996
none

1995
2nd Shane Kenny
6th Dmitri Tertyshny
6th Jamie Sokolsky
9th Jeff Lank

1994
3rd Artem Anisimov
8th Derek Diener
9th Ray Giroux

1993
2nd Janne Niinimaa
3rd Milos Holan
6th Mike Crowley
10th Jeff Staples
11th Ken Hemenway


Last edited by healthyscratch: 06-17-2013 at 03:07 PM.
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Old
06-17-2013, 02:50 PM
  #257
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Can't link of course because I'm on my damn phone but Friedman stated in his thirty thoughts that Carolina is looking for a big top 4 defender who eats minutes and has term left on the deal. Well that reminds me of someone exactly. And they are willing to part with the #5 overall for this said defenseman

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06-17-2013, 02:54 PM
  #258
LegionOfDoom91
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Wow. I'll go back 20 years for ya. 164 draft picks, 50 defensemen. 3 defensemen in the first round. Only 6 have had any significant NHL playing time. No issues?

2012
3rd Shayne Gostisbehere
3rd Frederic Larsson

2011
4th Colin Suellentrop

2010
6th Nick Luukko
7th Ricard Blidstrand

2009
3rd Simon Bertilsson
7th Oliver Lauridsen

2008
1st Luca Sbisa
3rd Marc-Andre Bourdon

2007
2nd Kevin Marshall

2006
2nd Mike Ratchuk
2nd Denis Bodrov
4th Joonas Lehtivuori

2005
3rd Oskars Bartulis

2004
4th R.J. Anderson
5th Chris Zarb
8th Travis Gawryletz

2003
3rd Alexandre Picard

2002
1st Joni Pitkanen
4th Rosario Ruggeri
6th Nikita Korovkin
6th Joey Mormina

2001
1st Jeff Woywitka
5th Jussi Timonen
6th Dennis Seidenberg
7th Thierry Douville

2000
8th Regan Kelly

1999
4th Jeff Feniak

1998
2nd Jason Beckett
2nd Ian Forbes
4th J.P. Morin
9th Bruno St. Jacques
9th Sergei Skrobot

1997
3rd Kris Mallette
4th Mikhail Chernov
6th Jordon Flodell
8th Marko Kauppinen
9th Par Styf

1996
none

1995
2nd Shane Kenny
6th Dmitri Tertyshny
6th Jamie Sokolsky
9th Jeff Lank

1994
3rd Artem Anisimov
8th Derek Diener
9th Ray Giroux

1993
2nd Janne Niinimaa
3rd Milos Holan
6th Mike Crowley
10th Jeff Staples
11th Ken Hemenway
You're missing Reece Willcox and Valeri Vasiliev from last year. Larsson was a 4th round pick too.

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Old
06-17-2013, 02:55 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
I'm on board with exploring this. Reports have indicated serious hurt feelings between Halak and Hitchcock, and Halak is signed for another year at $3.75 million (actual salary $4.5 million). He has shown that he plays well in a platoon scenario. Health issues are a concern, though.
St Louis also has Jake Allen, who played well last year. So Halak may be expendable.

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Old
06-17-2013, 02:55 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Can't link of course because I'm on my damn phone but Friedman stated in his thirty thoughts that Carolina is looking for a big top 4 defender who eats minutes and has term left on the deal. Well that reminds me of someone exactly. And they are willing to part with the #5 overall for this said defenseman
Are you thinking Weber..Shattenkirk, Pietrangelo?

Well if the Flyers didn't play above .500 hockey when they were pretty much already assured an early vacation maybe they could have had the 5th to leverage....heck the 8th spot would have been much better as well

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06-17-2013, 02:56 PM
  #261
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If you want to cheer for a team that tanks you don't even have to leave the state. The Pens board is that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Can't link of course because I'm on my damn phone but Friedman stated in his thirty thoughts that Carolina is looking for a big top 4 defender who eats minutes and has term left on the deal. Well that reminds me of someone exactly. And they are willing to part with the #5 overall for this said defenseman
Mezaros for the #5? Sounds good to me.

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Old
06-17-2013, 03:00 PM
  #262
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If you want to cheer for a team that tanks you don't even have to leave the state. The Pens board is that way.



Mezaros for the #5? Sounds good to me.
No Tanks....

Meszaros right now couldn't fetch a stick...let alone a 5th. Dude is peanut brittle right now.

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06-17-2013, 03:07 PM
  #263
LegionOfDoom91
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Coburn + 11th overall for 5th overall + 35th overall?

I'm not really for trading Coburn but we could land an NHL ready player with the 5th overall pick and package the 35th + 41st to move back into the first and take a defensemen.

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06-17-2013, 03:07 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
You're missing Reece Willcox and Valeri Vasiliev from last year. Larsson was a 4th round pick too.
Updated, thanks. I'm sure those two will be all stars.

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06-17-2013, 03:11 PM
  #265
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Don't want to give up the 11th + Coburn to move up. I'd rather do Coburn+Cousins or Coburn+2nd for the 5th. I doubt Carolina would bite, but I'm not giving up Coburn unless we are walking out of the draft with two 1st rounders. Coburn still has plenty of use to us.

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06-17-2013, 03:11 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Wow. I'll go back 20 years for ya. 164 draft picks, 50 defensemen. 3 defensemen in the first round. Only 6 have had any significant NHL playing time. No issues?

2012
3rd Shayne Gostisbehere
3rd Frederic Larsson

2011
4th Colin Suellentrop

2010
6th Nick Luukko
7th Ricard Blidstrand

2009
3rd Simon Bertilsson
7th Oliver Lauridsen

2008
1st Luca Sbisa
3rd Marc-Andre Bourdon

2007
2nd Kevin Marshall

2006
2nd Mike Ratchuk
2nd Denis Bodrov
4th Joonas Lehtivuori

2005
3rd Oskars Bartulis

2004
4th R.J. Anderson
5th Chris Zarb
8th Travis Gawryletz

2003
3rd Alexandre Picard

2002
1st Joni Pitkanen
4th Rosario Ruggeri
6th Nikita Korovkin
6th Joey Mormina

2001
1st Jeff Woywitka
5th Jussi Timonen
6th Dennis Seidenberg
7th Thierry Douville

2000
8th Regan Kelly

1999
4th Jeff Feniak

1998
2nd Jason Beckett
2nd Ian Forbes
4th J.P. Morin
9th Bruno St. Jacques
9th Sergei Skrobot

1997
3rd Kris Mallette
4th Mikhail Chernov
6th Jordon Flodell
8th Marko Kauppinen
9th Par Styf

1996
none

1995
2nd Shane Kenny
6th Dmitri Tertyshny
6th Jamie Sokolsky
9th Jeff Lank

1994
3rd Artem Anisimov
8th Derek Diener
9th Ray Giroux

1993
2nd Janne Niinimaa
3rd Milos Holan
6th Mike Crowley
10th Jeff Staples
11th Ken Hemenway
Wait, so a bunch of low draft picks didnt pan out well? This is shocking to see!

In the last 10 years they've drafted 5 defenseman in the top 2 rounds. Both of the 1st round picks were good picks and have been successful NHL players. of the 2nd round picks. The Mike Ratchuk pick sucked. Dennis Bodrov came to NA for a hand full of games and never even gave himself a chance to stick before heading back to the KHL where he's had a successful career, obviously there wasnt an issue with his talent or the Flyers ability to develope him since he didnt come here until he was 23. Kevin Marshall made it to the NHl and looked decent before running into injury problems. Like most 2nd rounders he's a borderline NHL player but I wouldn't be surprised if he makes it with another team. There was no issue with his development either.

What does what happened to 10th and 11th rounder in 1993 have to do with anyone on the staff in 2013 and their ability to draft or develop players?

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06-17-2013, 03:16 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Wow. I'll go back 20 years for ya. 164 draft picks, 52 defensemen. 3 defensemen in the first round. Only 6 have had any significant NHL playing time. No issues?

2012
3rd Shayne Gostisbehere
4th Frederic Larsson
5th Reece Wilcox
7th Valeri Vasiliev

2011
4th Colin Suellentrop

2010
6th Nick Luukko
7th Ricard Blidstrand

2009
3rd Simon Bertilsson
7th Oliver Lauridsen

2008
1st Luca Sbisa
3rd Marc-Andre Bourdon

2007
2nd Kevin Marshall

2006
2nd Mike Ratchuk
2nd Denis Bodrov
4th Joonas Lehtivuori

2005
3rd Oskars Bartulis

2004
4th R.J. Anderson
5th Chris Zarb
8th Travis Gawryletz

2003
3rd Alexandre Picard

2002
1st Joni Pitkanen
4th Rosario Ruggeri
6th Nikita Korovkin
6th Joey Mormina

2001
1st Jeff Woywitka
5th Jussi Timonen
6th Dennis Seidenberg
7th Thierry Douville

2000
8th Regan Kelly

1999
4th Jeff Feniak

1998
2nd Jason Beckett
2nd Ian Forbes
4th J.P. Morin
9th Bruno St. Jacques
9th Sergei Skrobot

1997
3rd Kris Mallette
4th Mikhail Chernov
6th Jordon Flodell
8th Marko Kauppinen
9th Par Styf

1996
none

1995
2nd Shane Kenny
6th Dmitri Tertyshny
6th Jamie Sokolsky
9th Jeff Lank

1994
3rd Artem Anisimov
8th Derek Diener
9th Ray Giroux

1993
2nd Janne Niinimaa
3rd Milos Holan
6th Mike Crowley
10th Jeff Staples
11th Ken Hemenway
Very few of the people who were involved in the drafting/scouting of players have been with the organization for that long. So listing draft picks for the past 20 years does you little to no good. If you limit that to the past 10 years and consider the success rates of where these players were drafted the Flyers are average at drafting/developing d-men. The vast majority of these guys picked were in the 4th round or later. You can't expect to get quality players that way.

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Old
06-17-2013, 03:17 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Are you thinking Weber..Shattenkirk, Pietrangelo?

Well if the Flyers didn't play above .500 hockey when they were pretty much already assured an early vacation maybe they could have had the 5th to leverage....heck the 8th spot would have been much better as well
None of those defenders are available. People really seem to under estimate what Coburn brings to the table. No he doesn't quarterback a power play and go e you 40 points a year, but will lead a pk and also eat 20-22 mins a night while coming in at 4.5 a year for three more years. With streit in the mix I would be willing to part with Coburn for the 5th overall. Make it part of a bigger deal. Coburn will provide 20 points a year for his new team too. Maybe he even breaks out given a different role with a different coach. Flyers can add nurse at 5 and another too not h prospect at 11.

We all want him to be something he is not, which is why he gets so much grief around here

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06-17-2013, 03:19 PM
  #269
LegionOfDoom91
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Wait, so a bunch of low draft picks didnt pan out well? This is shocking to see!

In the last 10 years they've drafted 5 defenseman in the top 2 rounds. Both of the 1st round picks were good picks and have been successful NHL players. of the 2nd round picks. The Mike Ratchuk pick sucked. Dennis Bodrov came to NA for a hand full of games and never even gave himself a chance to stick before heading back to the KHL where he's had a successful career, obviously there wasnt an issue with his talent or the Flyers ability to develope him since he didnt come here until he was 23. Kevin Marshall made it to the NHl and looked decent before running into injury problems. Like most 2nd rounders he's a borderline NHL player but I wouldn't be surprised if he makes it with another team. There was no issue with his development either.

What does what happened to 10th and 11th rounder in 1993 have to do with anyone on the staff in 2013 and their ability to draft or develop players?
We only go that far back with drafting when it shed's a negative light on Homer and Co. Most of the other times it starts at 2007 and not 1998.

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06-17-2013, 03:22 PM
  #270
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Wait, so a bunch of low draft picks didnt pan out well? This is shocking to see!

What does what happened to 10th and 11th rounder in 1993 have to do with anyone on the staff in 2013 and their ability to draft or develop players?
Organizational failure with defensemen. 3 first round defensemen in the last 20 years. 52 total drafted, 6 of which have played significant NHL minutes. If you think that's good, then ok.

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06-17-2013, 03:24 PM
  #271
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Ok I'll just let it go. Apparently we are really good at drafting defensemen and have a bunch of all stars in waiting. I think the goalie draftees are even better. Way to go Flyers! Keep up the good work.

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06-17-2013, 03:32 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Organizational failure with defensemen. 3 first round defensemen in the last 20 years. 52 total drafted, 6 of which have played significant NHL minutes. If you think that's good, then ok.
I think it's safe to say what happened 20 years ago has nothing to do with todays staff. Look at other teams and you'll see it's not much different. look at St. Louis, arguable the best defensive team in the NHL. Who have they drafted outside of the top 4 overall, that have been an NHL success?

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06-17-2013, 03:32 PM
  #273
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Look at the statistics on 1st round picks, 2nd round picks, late round picks, etc.

If you aren't using your highest selections on defenseman, nobody should be shocked when you don't end up with quality defenders.

This isn't exactly rocket science. It's just simple statistics. I guarantee if we drafted nothing but defenders in the first two rounds for the next three years, we would end up with at least one strong hit and probably a couple more promising players with NHL futures.

We have a solid scouting department. I don't think they are blind to defensive talent or better in any way at seeing offensive talent. It just so happens that the guys who actually make the picks have picked many more forwards than defenders.

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06-17-2013, 03:32 PM
  #274
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Organizational failure with defensemen. 3 first round defensemen in the last 20 years. 52 total drafted, 6 of which have played significant NHL minutes. If you think that's good, then ok.
I don't know if there is more current information but something like 50 percent of 1st rounders make it and by make it, I mean 200 NHL games. About a quarter of 2nd rounders make it and the 3rd round and on have a combine probability of success of about 12 percent. These numbers were compiled through the 1990's up to 2000 and since you decided to go back 20 some years I figure this actually applies. You don't have to be a mathematician to figure out that if you want to draft NHL caliber players you have to select in the first few rounds, after that it's a crapshoot. Of course some players are selected 250th overall and turn into great players (Kimmo), while other low draft picks show some promise (Lauridsen, 7th rounder) but this is very uncommon.

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Ok I'll just let it go. Apparently we are really good at drafting defensemen and have a bunch of all stars in waiting. I think the goalie draftees are even better. Way to go Flyers! Keep up the good work.
So I guess there's no middle ground? The Flyers are average at drafting and developing d-men they just don't do it enough in the higher rounds.

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06-17-2013, 03:40 PM
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Look at the statistics on 1st round picks, 2nd round picks, late round picks, etc.

If you aren't using your highest selections on defenseman, nobody should be shocked when you don't end up with quality defenders.

This isn't exactly rocket science. It's just simple statistics. I guarantee if we drafted nothing but defenders in the first two rounds for the next three years, we would end up with at least one strong hit and probably a couple more promising players with NHL futures.

We have a solid scouting department. I don't think they are blind to defensive talent or better in any way at seeing offensive talent. It just so happens that the guys who actually make the picks have picked many more forwards than defenders.
I think the problem is in the last few years we really haven't had the early picks to draft these defensemen. As far as star defensemen go there really hasn't been a difference between them being selected within the first three rounds. I'm not ready to buy into that theory until we start to have a couple of full drafts under our belt (which seems to be happening of late).

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