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Paul Kariya HOF?

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06-12-2013, 06:42 PM
  #26
Evincar
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
The fact that he was another face in the crowd in the NHL by 2005 when he had just turned 31 bothers me a bit. No one even flirted with his name for the Olympics that year. Should that happen to a guy that young? It isn't as if this is Trottier and he had already punched his meal ticket in long ago.
Its seems a lot of posters on the history boards use Olympic team selections when evaluating careers, a little too much. Kariya had a pretty bad year in 2001-02 and was still selected to the Olympic team.

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06-12-2013, 07:57 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
Its seems a lot of posters on the history boards use Olympic team selections when evaluating careers, a little too much. Kariya had a pretty bad year in 2001-02 and was still selected to the Olympic team.
But when he was selected no one knew how mediocre of a season he was going to have in 2001-'02. Hey, he played well in the Olympics in 2002, he really did. But he was 27 years old at that time. How many people just as well assumed that Kariya was going to be a fixture on those teams for much longer? I sure didn't think that 2002 would be his last time in a Canadian uniform.

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06-12-2013, 08:23 PM
  #28
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I think Kariya gets in eventually. I don't think the Hall can completely ignore the left wing position of the 90s, & Kariya has a better case than Keith Tkachuk, Markus Naslund & John LeClair. Luc Robitaille & Michel Goulet are the only left wingers from the 80s who made the cut. It would be a bit of an embarrassment if the Hall neglected the position for the era.

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06-13-2013, 03:56 PM
  #29
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Bear View Post
I think Kariya gets in eventually. I don't think the Hall can completely ignore the left wing position of the 90s, & Kariya has a better case than Keith Tkachuk, Markus Naslund & John LeClair. Luc Robitaille & Michel Goulet are the only left wingers from the 80s who made the cut. It would be a bit of an embarrassment if the Hall neglected the position for the era.
Shanahan? He'll be in there. But the position just wasn't terribly strong in that time frame either. The lesser likes are Graves and Andreychuk among others. Not the sexiest of choices.

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06-13-2013, 04:06 PM
  #30
TheDevilMadeMe
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I posted this when the topic came up last summer

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Eligible HHOFers by Postseason All-Star Teams

Non-HHOFers with five All Star Teams
John LeClair
Paul Kariya

Non-HHOFers with four All Star Teams
Carl Brewer
Rick Martin

Non-HHOFers with three All Star Teams
Cecil Dillon
Sid Smith
Pat Stapleton
Bill White
Tom Barrasso
Doug Wilson
Kevin Stevens
Brendan Shanahan

Non-HHOFers with 2 All Star Teams
Wilf Cude
Paul Thompson
Dave Kerr
Lorne Carr
Bill Hollett
Jack Crawford
Glen Harmon
Gaye Stewart
Jimmy Thomson
Leo Reise
Ken Mosdell
Moose Vasko
Kenny Wharram
Charlie Hodge
J.C. Tremblay
Mickey Redmond
Rogie Vachon
Glenn Resch
Don Edwards
Charlie Simmer
Mike Liut
John Tonelli
John Vanbiesbrouck
Alexander Mogilny
Keith Tkachuk
Eric Lindros
Eric Desjardins
If Kariya and LeClair don't get in, they'd be the only 5-time postseason All Stars not to be enshrined. In fact, only 2 4-time All-Stars aren't in, and one of them (Carl Brewer) would almost certainly be in if it weren't for his feud with Punch Imlach that led to him leaving the NHL for a number of years in his prime.

Edit: Markus Naslund is now eligible; he was an All-Star 3 times. There may be more newly eligible players with multiple All-Stars, but none with more than 3.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 06-13-2013 at 04:13 PM.
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06-13-2013, 04:11 PM
  #31
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I posted this when the topic came up last summer
i'm sure you probably noted this when you originally posted it, but it's pretty obvious what kariya, leclair, rick martin, sid smith, kevin stevens, and markus naslund all have in common.

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06-13-2013, 04:17 PM
  #32
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i'm sure you probably noted this when you originally posted it, but it's pretty obvious what kariya, leclair, rick martin, sid smith, kevin stevens, and markus naslund all have in common.
yes, the weakest of the forward positions. And I'm fine with Rick Martin just missing the cut: His career was cut short by injuries, and LW was even weaker when he played than it was when Kariya and LeClair did.

But I don't see how you keep out guys with 5 All-Star teams like Kariya and LeClair. As the poster above said, how can you completely ignore the LW for a decade? LW was fairly weak from 1995-2005, but I don't think it was historically bad.

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06-13-2013, 04:25 PM
  #33
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
yes, the weakest of the forward positions. And I'm fine with Rick Martin just missing the cut: His career was cut short by injuries, and LW was even weaker when he played than it was when Kariya and LeClair did.

But I don't see how you keep out guys with 5 All-Star teams like Kariya and LeClair. As the poster above said, how can you completely ignore the LW for a decade? LW was fairly weak from 1995-2005, but I don't think it was historically bad.
well, i think we're 99% certain that shanahan will be there.

and looking at, say, '75-'85, if you don't count messier as a true LW, and concede that shutt, gillies, and barber are all borderline (and arguably regrettable), then you'd be left with goulet as the only bona fide LW of that decade. i'd be okay with that.

that said, of all the LWs of that era after shanahan, i acknowledge that kariya is clearly the cream of the crop, whereas not all that much separates leclair from rick martin except extra points from extra seasons that add nothing to his case.

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06-13-2013, 04:33 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
well, i think we're 99% certain that shanahan will be there.

and looking at, say, '75-'85, if you don't count messier as a true LW, and concede that shutt, gillies, and barber are all borderline (and arguably regrettable), then you'd be left with goulet as the only bona fide LW of that decade. i'd be okay with that.

that said, of all the LWs of that era after shanahan, i acknowledge that kariya is clearly the cream of the crop, whereas not all that much separates leclair from rick martin except extra points from extra seasons that add nothing to his case.
1. Leclair has better offensive numbers.

LeClair top 10 points finishes: 4, 5, 9, 9
Martin top 10 points finishes: 6, 10

LeClair top 10 goals finishes: 3, 3, 5, 5, 7, 10
Martin top 10 goals finishes: 2, 3, 6, 7, 10

Both players played with centers who were better than them, so I think that's a wash.

2. LeClair brought something of a power forward game. He wasn't particularly intimidating like Tkachuk or Neely, but he was one of the best players of his era along the boards. I don't think Martin brought much more than his scoring, right?

3. LeClair was an excellent international performer - an All-Star at both the 1996 World Cup and 2002 Olympics. I get that LeClair had more opportunity as an American, rather than a Canadian, but he took the opportunity and excelled. The 1996 American World Cup gold team is something of a legendary team and LeClair had a very memorable role for them.

Anyway, this thread is about Kariya, who I think peaked higher than all those guys.

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06-14-2013, 04:31 PM
  #35
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If Kariya and LeClair don't get in, they'd be the only 5-time postseason All Stars not to be enshrined. In fact, only 2 4-time All-Stars aren't in, and one of them (Carl Brewer) would almost certainly be in if it weren't for his feud with Punch Imlach that led to him leaving the NHL for a number of years in his prime.
The thing with Brewer is that even though he had 4 all-stars in his career they are spread out and are in historically weak seasons for defensemen. Three of them are as a Maple Leaf. But do we think of Brewer as an elite defenseman? He retired twice. Once when he was 27. The other time he was 33 or so. He had gaps in his career that I am not sure he has enough elite seasons to make up for it.

Onto Kariya and Leclair though, I know that 5 post season all-star nods is something to behold, but a lot hinges on the fact that neither of them did anything much outside of those years. Leclair was better in the postseason, but he still has a postseason resume that you thought should have been better. There are thresholds that you think shouldn't be broken. 5 AST is one of them. 400+ wins is another and yet look at Joseph and Osgood, two guys I wouldn't put in there (maybe Joseph). 600 goals in many ways can be automatic but look at Andreychuk (rightly so) and the fuss Dino creates by being in there.

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06-15-2013, 04:42 PM
  #36
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
1. Leclair has better offensive numbers.

LeClair top 10 points finishes: 4, 5, 9, 9
Martin top 10 points finishes: 6, 10

LeClair top 10 goals finishes: 3, 3, 5, 5, 7, 10
Martin top 10 goals finishes: 2, 3, 6, 7, 10

Both players played with centers who were better than them, so I think that's a wash.

2. LeClair brought something of a power forward game. He wasn't particularly intimidating like Tkachuk or Neely, but he was one of the best players of his era along the boards. I don't think Martin brought much more than his scoring, right?

3. LeClair was an excellent international performer - an All-Star at both the 1996 World Cup and 2002 Olympics. I get that LeClair had more opportunity as an American, rather than a Canadian, but he took the opportunity and excelled. The 1996 American World Cup gold team is something of a legendary team and LeClair had a very memorable role for them.

Anyway, this thread is about Kariya, who I think peaked higher than all those guys.
better, sure. but so much better that it vaults him over the line into the HHOF? i'd be fine with leclair getting in as a low rung guy la joe mullen if he'd had a better playoff resume. and not to say that leclair was a weak playoff performer, just not a legendary one, two OT goals in '93 notwithstanding.

maybe elias is a good comparison point. their regular season resumes are pretty similar, though leclair has the obvious edge in AST finishes (which could be partially era-specific, could also be that elias tends to be very underrated). but if elias belongs as a low rung guy, it's because of the playoff resume, which leclair lacks.

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06-17-2013, 04:22 PM
  #37
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I think we've had this argument before but I absolutely hate this narrative. It just doesn't fit.

He came back the following year and posted 101 points, right in line with what he was doing before the hit. 3rd in the NHL in scoring. Career high in SOG.

The year after that, he probably wins the Art Ross if he doesn't miss 8 games through injury. 42 goals in 74 games in the darkest season of the dead puck era.

For two years after the injury, he was every bit as good as he ever was. Or damn close.

Then in 2000-01, we see his play start to fall off - his regular linemates change as Rucchin misses almost the entire season and then Selanne is traded. SOG go way down. And those trends just continue from there.

Personally I find it hard to believe that he was 'destroyed' by the Suter hit, just with a two-year delay on that effect, while all the while he continued on as a top-3 forward on the planet.
I'm sorry, this just isn't true. Your opinions (both popular and unpopular) often match my own memories, but in this case I think you're way off.

Paul Kariya was at his absolute best in 96-97. In my opinion he may have been the best player in the league that year. He then held out and came back for 22 games in 97-98. If anything he looked even better than he had the season prior.

Then the Suter crosscheck. To me, after that Kariya became a high class compiler. He got his points and made some nice plays, but you never felt like he was dictating the game in any way approaching his pre-injury days. he simply wasn't the same player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
better, sure. but so much better that it vaults him over the line into the HHOF? i'd be fine with leclair getting in as a low rung guy la joe mullen if he'd had a better playoff resume. and not to say that leclair was a weak playoff performer, just not a legendary one, two OT goals in '93 notwithstanding.

maybe elias is a good comparison point. their regular season resumes are pretty similar, though leclair has the obvious edge in AST finishes (which could be partially era-specific, could also be that elias tends to be very underrated). but if elias belongs as a low rung guy, it's because of the playoff resume, which leclair lacks.
I don't think this is a fair comparison. There's no question that Leclair has a more impressive regular season record, but Elias' playoff numbers/the eyeball test make him a much better candidate than Leclair. To me, Elias was the identity player more than once on a devils team that went to the finals/won the Stanley cup. Leclair never even comes close.

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Old
06-17-2013, 07:45 PM
  #38
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I think Kariya's going to be one of those guys who gets hurt by the small size of the selection committee. It won't be hard to find to find four guys in the game who don't think that Kariya belongs, for whatever reason.

I don't think Kariya was destroyed by the Suter cheap shot. But he wasn't the same player. Yes, he hit 100 points his first year back, but he didn't dominate the game like he had the previous three years. Sensational player, but not as incredible as he was previously.

At his absolute best, from 1995 until the Suter injury, he was hockey's total offensive weapon. He had everything (except for an extra three or four inches, and 30 pounds), and could do everything at top speed: score goals, make plays, skate, stick-handle. There wasn't anything he couldn't do from an offensive perspective. But we saw him at his best for two full seasons and a holdout/injury shortened season. We saw outstanding play from him one or two years. But that's it. Too many years, he left you wanting more.

Maybe if the HHOF was selected by the media, he'd have a better chance of getting in. But in an HHOF filled largely with guys who played the game at a high level, or who coached or managed NHL teams, and who knew how he was playing, and how that compared with how he should be playing, it'll be a lot tougher.

Kariya vs. Lafontaine. Lafontaine just did more. For the seven years prior to the knee injury, he averaged 46 goals per season. There probably aren't many centres not in the HHOF who averaged 46 goals over a seven-year span. (I would expect every centre who did it is in the HHOF). And I would guess that every centre who did it had better supporting talent than Lafontaine had in his final few years on The Island. He was a good enough player, and had enough on the resume, that he was likely a lock for the HHOF before he suffered the knee injury in 1993.

And keep in mind that in those final few years on the Island, LaFontaine never had a linemate near the calibre of Selanne. Lafontaine was playing with guys who, at that stage in their career, should not have been top six forwards. Kariya had over five years with Selanne.

You could make a case that Kariya, for a few years, was as good as Lafontaine. But Lafontaine had more years of playing at a high/elite level than Kariya.

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06-17-2013, 07:55 PM
  #39
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I say if Bure got inducted, Paul falls under the same category.

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