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2013 Draft Part II: All Aboard the Nichushkin Train

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06-17-2013, 03:44 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by IPreferPi View Post
Yotes fan back in peace and an initial offer for the 5th:

Gormley/Michalek + 12th for the 5th + Justin Peters
Gormley + 12th for 5th + Peters is a big yes from me.

Gormley is one of the best D prospects in the world and the Canes could pick up another elite D prospect in Ristolainen/Zadorov at 12th.

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06-17-2013, 03:47 PM
  #502
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Yotes fan back in peace and an initial offer for the 5th:

Gormley/Michalek + 12th for the 5th + Justin Peters
You asked about Dalpe on the trade board and I wouldn't have a problem with his inclusion in the deal.

12th + Gormley for 5th + Dalpe + Peters

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06-17-2013, 03:48 PM
  #503
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You asked about Dalpe on the trade board and I wouldn't have a problem with his inclusion in the deal.

12th + Gormley for 5th + Dalpe + Peters
Yay :-)

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06-17-2013, 04:02 PM
  #504
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Gormley is older than Justin Faulk, not phsyical, and still hasn't played in the NHL.

That adds up to a big question mark. The #12 is probably a season away from the NHL at best.

That creates more questions than it does provide answers.

Whereas Nichushkin/Barkov are pencilled into the roster next year with little worry.

If we are moving down to 12, I think we best be sure we're getting a definitive roster player for the 13-14 season.

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06-17-2013, 04:05 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by wallym View Post
Gormley is older than Justin Faulk, not phsyical, and still hasn't played in the NHL.

That adds up to a big question mark. The #12 is probably a season away from the NHL at best.

That creates more questions than it does provide answers.

Whereas Nichushkin/Barkov are pencilled into the roster next year with little worry.

If we are moving down to 12, I think we best be sure we're getting a definitive roster player for the 13-14 season.
It will have to involve OEL or Yandle, no way they move OEL.

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06-17-2013, 04:22 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by wallym View Post
Gormley is older than Justin Faulk, not phsyical, and still hasn't played in the NHL.

That adds up to a big question mark. The #12 is probably a season away from the NHL at best.

That creates more questions than it does provide answers.

Whereas Nichushkin/Barkov are pencilled into the roster next year with little worry.

If we are moving down to 12, I think we best be sure we're getting a definitive roster player for the 13-14 season.
Yes, Gormley isn't physical - that's probably the only knock in his game. But I wouldn't say he's soft either. And I can't really think of a defense prospect with better physicality that has Gormley's poise and two-way talent, or is as nearly NHL-ready as he is. Maybe Ryan Murray, but obviously he's not going to be available, period.

At 12 the Canes can certainly pick up Ristolainen, who would probably be able to go at some point during next season as well. Gormley, Faulk, Murphy, and RR - that's quite a solid blueline for Carolina for the future.

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06-17-2013, 06:14 PM
  #507
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I seriously doubt that Gormley is a big question mark. The only reason he hasn't played in the NHL is Yandle and Ekman-Larsson and giving him 1st pairing time in the 'A' to further develope his pro game was more of a priority than giving him bottom 6 minutes. Ristolainen, Zadorov, and Pulock are physically mature enough to take the rigors of the pro game and wouldn't surprise me if they make their respected teams next season.

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06-17-2013, 06:46 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by DesertDawg View Post
I seriously doubt that Gormley is a big question mark. The only reason he hasn't played in the NHL is Yandle and Ekman-Larsson and giving him 1st pairing time in the 'A' to further develope his pro game was more of a priority than giving him bottom 6 minutes. Ristolainen, Zadorov, and Pulock are physically mature enough to take the rigors of the pro game and wouldn't surprise me if they make their respected teams next season.
Yandle and Oel are only two people. That leaves 4 other spots, and he didn't even get a call up for a look at the end of the season. He surprisingly dropped to 13th. Then he surprisingly still hasn't made his NHL debut.

At some point concern has to at least inch in a little. As for the others, who knows what's going to be available at 12, or who the canes scouting likes. A lot more uncertainty there.

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06-17-2013, 07:26 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by wallym View Post
Yandle and Oel are only two people. That leaves 4 other spots, and he didn't even get a call up for a look at the end of the season. He surprisingly dropped to 13th. Then he surprisingly still hasn't made his NHL debut.

At some point concern has to at least inch in a little. As for the others, who knows what's going to be available at 12, or who the canes scouting likes. A lot more uncertainty there.
The coyotes are stacked on the blue line, in the nhl and in their prospect pool. Having Gormley be THE guy in Portland was probably better for him than minimal minutes in the NHL. As far as not getting a call up, it's very possible the opportunity just never came up. I don't follow pheonix, but from what I know, and can tell it seems like aa good fit. Didn't Gormley interview poorly at the draft except with Carolina?

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06-17-2013, 07:27 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by wallym View Post
Yandle and Oel are only two people. That leaves 4 other spots, and he didn't even get a call up for a look at the end of the season. He surprisingly dropped to 13th. Then he surprisingly still hasn't made his NHL debut.

At some point concern has to at least inch in a little. As for the others, who knows what's going to be available at 12, or who the canes scouting likes. A lot more uncertainty there.
2 way contract. Phoenix will jettison some bodies at the deadline. Until then the Coyotes are happy he's playing 20+ minutes per night in the AHL.

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06-17-2013, 07:30 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by DesertDawg View Post
I seriously doubt that Gormley is a big question mark. The only reason he hasn't played in the NHL is Yandle and Ekman-Larsson and giving him 1st pairing time in the 'A' to further develope his pro game was more of a priority than giving him bottom 6 minutes. Ristolainen, Zadorov, and Pulock are physically mature enough to take the rigors of the pro game and wouldn't surprise me if they make their respected teams next season.
You'll have to excuse us Canes fans... Our team has not developed a D properly in recent memory, the method is very foreign to us. "If they ain't in the NHL the year we draft em, they must suck" mentality is common.

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06-17-2013, 07:41 PM
  #512
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On the one hand, neither Maloney and Tippet agree that the NHL is a developmental League.

On the other, if Gormley were really as good as advertised, he would be in the NHL now. The fact that he isn't means that he still needs time, or that he will never be in the NHL.

I wouldn't do that trade. Simply because I would want more bang for my buck if I were trading the 5th overall when there are 6 or 7 elite players available.

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06-17-2013, 07:44 PM
  #513
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I would do it in a heartbeat. An absolute heartbeat.

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06-17-2013, 07:45 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by Jussijuice View Post
You'll have to excuse us Canes fans... Our team has not developed a D properly in recent memory, the method is very foreign to us. "If they ain't in the NHL the year we draft em, they must suck" mentality is common.
Have we developed a forward properly in recent memory either?

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06-17-2013, 08:00 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
Have we developed a forward properly in recent memory either?
Carolina did a phenomenal job in converting Jiri Tlusty from scrap heap to legit first liner. I know he didn't take the conventional path of being drafted, going through our AHL team, etc. but that is the case for a lot of teams. Not a great number of teams get constant talent billowing in from their minor professional teams. Sometimes you just have to make good on what somebody else missed.

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06-17-2013, 08:03 PM
  #516
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I'd encourage Canes fans to find some footage of last years World Juniors and Memorial Cup. Gormely was amazing during both tournaments.

At worst he's going to be a Top 4 in the NHL. Personally, I see him as a #2


Last edited by hbk: 06-17-2013 at 08:43 PM.
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06-17-2013, 08:04 PM
  #517
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Have we developed a forward properly in recent memory either?
The first round forwards have all been developed pretty well - with the exception of Boychuk. 2nd and 3rd rounders have been spent mostly on defense and goalies - only 5 forward picks in the last ten years (not counting 2011 or 2012.) If you count Bowman as having been "developed" the Hurricanes are 1 for 5 which is about average for rounds 2 and 3. If Dalpe still makes it, they would be 2 for 5 - which would put them above average.

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06-17-2013, 08:05 PM
  #518
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Gormley is simply not the kind of d-man I see JR being willing to accept in a package to move down. Sure, Gormley might eventually be a top 4 d-man but he could turn out to be another Sanguinetti or McBain (in terms of impact, not style). To move down that far, the d-man would have to be a bit more proven, otherwise the trade is just another risky gamble that has little effect on the team.

Seems JR has a lot more swing and misses than successes when it comes to taking gambles on other team's prospects. Tlusty is literally the only success I can think of, the rest have been meh to horrible. I don't trust JR to appropriately judge other team's prospects nor do I have any confidence that our AHL team can develop any successful prospects with regularity.

Starting to sound like JR is ready to make some sort of panic move. He desperately wants to upgrade our D without having the money to do so, the UFA d-men mostly suck and we're sort of in no man's land at #5 overall in the draft. JR doesn't want to take the wrong guy at #5 while doing nothing to help the D, so he trades down to add another d-prospect and he doesn't have the added pressure of choosing the wrong 2nd tier guy in the draft, and then he gets to select Hartman or Horvat, players he probably always wanted to draft but couldn't/wouldn't at #5 overall.

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06-17-2013, 08:09 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by WWAD View Post
The first round forwards have all been developed pretty well - with the exception of Boychuk. 2nd and 3rd rounders have been spent mostly on defense and goalies - only 5 forward picks in the last ten years (not counting 2011 or 2012.) If you count Bowman as having been "developed" the Hurricanes are 1 for 5 which is about average for rounds 2 and 3. If Dalpe still makes it, they would be 2 for 5 - which would put them above average.
Those are a lot of very uncertain if's. I think it's safe to say we're horrible at developing talent.

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06-17-2013, 08:15 PM
  #520
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FORWARDS
Jiri Tlusty ($1.600m) / Eric Staal ($8.250m) / Alexander Semin ($7.000m)
Valeri Nichushkin ($1.500m) / Jordan Staal ($6.000m) / Victor Rask ($0.863m)
Jeff Skinner ($5.725m) / Tuomo Ruutu ($4.750m) / Patrick Dwyer ($0.900m)
Nicolas Blanchard ($0.538m) / Jeremy Welsh ($0.850m) / Kevin Westgarth ($0.725m)
Drayson Bowman ($0.600m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Joni Pitkanen ($4.500m) / Tim Gleason ($4.000m)
Justin Faulk ($0.900m) / Ryan Murphy ($1.313m)
Jay Harrison ($1.500m) / Marc-Andre Bergeron ($1.000m)
Brett Bellemore ($0.525m) /
GOALTENDERS
Cam Ward ($6.300m)
Dan Ellis ($0.800m)
OTHER
Buyout: Derek Joslin ($0.125m)
RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS (1.400% of upper limit)
Jussi Jokinen ($0.900m—0.3%)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,164,167; BONUSES: $742,500
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $3,878,333

With what we have to work with, not going out of JR's box.

Eh, D still still sucks.

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06-17-2013, 08:26 PM
  #521
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The first round forwards have all been developed pretty well - with the exception of Boychuk.
I guess it depends on your definition of "developed". JJ's post commented about the Canes aren't used to seeing defensemen spend time in the AHL because we aren't used to seeing a D-Man develop..and it's either "right away to the NHL right away they suck". In that context, I really wouldn't count the first round forwards as being developed by Carolina. They were for the most part, in the NHL right away.

Staal: Went right to the NHL.
Ladd: Went right to the NHL (after lockout) and then we traded him before he even developed.
Sutter: Came straight from Juniors to the NHL, only when the Canes realized he wasn't ready after he nearly got decapitated by Weight, did he go the the AHL. Still, he spent a whole 29 games in the AHL and then was traded when he was 23.
Boychuk: Hasn't developed.
Skinner: Came right to the NHL, Canes did not development him.

I'd say the Canes drafted well for those players to be able to make it to the NHL directly, but I wouldn't say the Canes developed them in the sense JJ was referring.

Quote:
2nd and 3rd rounders have been spent mostly on defense and goalies - only 5 forward picks in the last ten years (not counting 2011 or 2012.) If you count Bowman as having been "developed" the Hurricanes are 1 for 5 which is about average for rounds 2 and 3. If Dalpe still makes it, they would be 2 for 5 - which would put them above average.
I guess you can count Bowman, they drafted Bowman as a scorer and "developed" him into a 4th liner. So the Canes track record of developing their drafted forwards through the AHL boils down Bowman (and loosely Sutter)?

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06-17-2013, 08:26 PM
  #522
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On the one hand, neither Maloney and Tippet agree that the NHL is a developmental League.

On the other, if Gormley were really as good as advertised, he would be in the NHL now. The fact that he isn't means that he still needs time, or that he will never be in the NHL.
Or...we have a future Norris finalist and a two-time All Star PMD ahead of Gormley on the left side and top pairing minutes in the AHL are more conducive to his development than bottom pairing minutes in the NHL for now.

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06-17-2013, 08:29 PM
  #523
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Or...we have a future Norris finalist and a two-time All Star PMD ahead of Gormley on the left side and top pairing minutes in the AHL are more conducive to his development than bottom pairing minutes in the NHL for now.
We just have hesitations about AHL players that are supposed to be "ready"

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06-17-2013, 08:30 PM
  #524
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Carolina did a phenomenal job in converting Jiri Tlusty from scrap heap to legit first liner. I know he didn't take the conventional path of being drafted, going through our AHL team, etc. but that is the case for a lot of teams. Not a great number of teams get constant talent billowing in from their minor professional teams. Sometimes you just have to make good on what somebody else missed.
That's fair. I was more referring to guys we drafted. He was a bit older and had some NHL experience which I think gave him a bit of an edge for being able to stick and adapt to different roles. I also think he would have done better sooner with Carolina had injuries not slowed him down. But I agree, no complaints with the path he took.

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06-17-2013, 09:00 PM
  #525
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Or...we have a future Norris finalist and a two-time All Star PMD ahead of Gormley on the left side and top pairing minutes in the AHL are more conducive to his development than bottom pairing minutes in the NHL for now.
Which means he hasn't fully developed yet. Otherwise, he would be in the NHL.

Or is David Schlemko such an amazing hockey player that he is keeping the awesomeness that is Gormley down?

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