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2013 Draft Part II: All Aboard the Nichushkin Train

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06-17-2013, 10:28 PM
  #526
IPreferPi
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
Which means he hasn't fully developed yet. Otherwise, he would be in the NHL.

Or is David Schlemko such an amazing hockey player that he is keeping the awesomeness that is Gormley down?
Of course Gormley hasn't fully developed yet - even OEL hasn't fully developed yet. . There was absolutely no need for us to bring up Gormley this season. And FYI, Schlemko is a very reliable and underrated TWD.

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06-17-2013, 10:50 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by IPreferPi View Post
Of course Gormley hasn't fully developed yet - even OEL hasn't fully developed yet. . There was absolutely no need for us to bring up Gormley this season. And FYI, Schlemko is a very reliable and underrated TWD.
He's ready! Just not quite Schlemko ready.

Chris Summers got 6 games. David Runblad, 8. But nobody wanted to give Gormley a taste of the NHL before going into his rookie season next year?

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06-17-2013, 11:09 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by wallym View Post
He's ready! Just not quite Schlemko ready.

Chris Summers got 6 games. David Runblad, 8. But nobody wanted to give Gormley a taste of the NHL before going into his rookie season next year?
Well, apparently we were still gunning for the playoffs until the final week and the Red Wings game. And then the Yotes wanted to keep playing in win-now mode after that, costing us 4 draft spots...

(FWIW I would've liked to see Gormley too in those final throwaway games against the Avs and Ducks).

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06-18-2013, 12:11 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by IPreferPi View Post
Well, apparently we were still gunning for the playoffs until the final week and the Red Wings game. And then the Yotes wanted to keep playing in win-now mode after that, costing us 4 draft spots...

(FWIW I would've liked to see Gormley too in those final throwaway games against the Avs and Ducks).
Not everyone understands that teams that have a developmental priority stick to their word when they say X player is going to spend the year in the AHL. Here in Carolina, we've grown accustomed to any prospect showing a modicum of ability in the AHL being immediately thrust into the NHL rotation. "Roles" are loosely defined. If one defender goes down, you call the next best player up to the NHL "role" be damned.

What I feel like Phoenix has done is allow Gormley to have the stability of playing top pairing minutes and not rushing him into a third pairing role with the big club simply because he's a prospect with a pedigree. Understanding that the 6th-7th best defender in your organization doesn't by necessity have to be the 6th-7th defender on your team at any given moment is a foreign concept here. He'll be better for it when they call him up and slowly ramp his minutes to where they want him.

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06-18-2013, 01:13 AM
  #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IPreferPi View Post
Of course Gormley hasn't fully developed yet - even OEL hasn't fully developed yet. .
Yes, I acknowledged that in my original post.

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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
On the one hand, neither Maloney and Tippet agree that the NHL is a developmental League.

On the other, if Gormley were really as good as advertised, he would be in the NHL now. The fact that he isn't means that he still needs time, or that he will never be in the NHL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IPreferPi View Post
There was absolutely no need for us to bring up Gormley this season.
Why? Summers and Rundblad both got called up.

I'm not saying that Gormley's bad, merely that he isn't ready to make the jump and be an impact player.

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06-18-2013, 02:01 AM
  #531
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Considering we had Bobby Sangs in the lineup for most of the year and he was anything but an impact player (except for the opposing team), I don't think playing in the big leagues should be any sort of measuring stick.

Is Gormley better than MAB and/Sanguinetti? If so, what's the issue?

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06-18-2013, 07:04 AM
  #532
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So the Canes track record of developing their drafted forwards through the AHL boils down Bowman (and loosely Sutter)?
Seriously, are we going to get into this debate again?

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06-18-2013, 07:21 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
Here in Carolina, we've grown accustomed to any prospect showing a modicum of ability in the AHL being immediately thrust into the NHL rotation. "Roles" are loosely defined. If one defender goes down, you call the next best player up to the NHL "role" be damned.
Accustomed, yes, but I believe perpetuating it in your statements does a disservice to the way Carolina used its prospects this past year.
  • Brett Bellemore made his NHL debut while Jordan (who is higher on the depth chart) continued to play in Charlotte because Bellemore is a physical stay-at-homer, a role that the Hurricanes needed to be filled.
  • Dalpe remained in the AHL while Chris Terry got his first shot, even though Dalpe is top dog of forward prospects.
  • Riley Nash continued to center the 3rd line while Dalpe remained in the AHL.

And I won't even get into last season, when Muller took over as head coach, where many players got a few games with the big club to show their wares.

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06-18-2013, 07:28 AM
  #534
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from what little i know and have seen from the top n.a. prospects they are without doubt very talented (particularly druoin to me) but i have some reservations as to whether they can step into an nhl role immediately. the euro prospects may have a better chance of that.

no choice but to hope that management does the right things. it is a crap shoot but they are the professionals that get paid to do these things. hope their moves pan out.

i think part of the issues are that the canes may feel that they need help now rather than to wait and develop. public sentiment for that is high at this point but it may not be the best course of action.

i have said and do believe that it will take at least two years, perhaps three, of the hurricanes making good moves in order to be a true contender. after watching the top teams compete this post season, carolina isn't even close imo. the option of moving that 5th pick may be a good choice or not depending on the return and circumstances. i suppose there are lots of options and i don't envy their predicament.

i feel that moving core guys is a panic move and more of a step back for a step forward. they should keep their good core players and add to, hence the two to three year build. i think there are likely to be some good opportunities via free agency, buys outs and trades. some dead weight and money needs to be shed though for sure.

semin, the staals, tlusty, skinner, faulk, murphy, should be retained at this point but i think any of the others including ward could be shopped. don't know too much about the skill and readiness of some of the guys with the checkers. have not been impressed by any i saw play this season. rask i haven't seen play.


Last edited by rocky7: 06-18-2013 at 09:15 AM.
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06-18-2013, 09:28 AM
  #535
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Anyone else surprised to see the Max Domi profile on the Canes website?

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06-18-2013, 09:29 AM
  #536
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The draft profiles have begun, with Barkov yesterday and Domi today. The Barkov one was absolutely glowing but they don't seem to think he'll be there at #5 unless a team in the top 4 is absolutely enamored with Nurse, Nichushkin, or Monahan.

my guess on the next few profiles:
Horvat, Lazar, Monahan, Nichushkin, Nurse, Ristolainen, Shinkaruk, Zadorov... they MIGHT profile Drouin next, but again similar situation to Barkov just even less likely to be there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by faulkingdynamic View Post
Anyone else surprised to see the Max Domi profile on the Canes website?
Not shocked since we usually profile 10 or so prospects each year, and the top 3 are probably in "forget about it" territory. But the ONLY way he's an option is if we trade down with someone like Phoenix.

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06-18-2013, 09:30 AM
  #537
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I guess they're planning on doing 10 of them so some of them have to be reaches.

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Old
06-18-2013, 10:54 AM
  #538
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really hoping they don't select jones or nurse if still there when they pick. imo they should keep adding to the forward group with their picks this year and work on the defense using other means.

as much as public opinion seems to be demanding a 'quick fix', i hope they do their best to move wisely even over some time rather than to be rash in any way.

for eg.. although i understand that the penguins are in a much different situation regarding their market and fan base, i was impressed by shero in his press conference stating how while he acknowledges public opinion, his decisions are based on what they think is best for the team using the information they have. maybe it's unfair to compare the two organizations but i would like to think they will make competent judgements for the well being of the team rather than to appease the fans short term. i guess some past dealings seem contrary to that notion however.


Last edited by rocky7: 06-18-2013 at 11:11 AM.
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06-18-2013, 11:05 AM
  #539
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
Not everyone understands that teams that have a developmental priority stick to their word when they say X player is going to spend the year in the AHL. Here in Carolina, we've grown accustomed to any prospect showing a modicum of ability in the AHL being immediately thrust into the NHL rotation. "Roles" are loosely defined. If one defender goes down, you call the next best player up to the NHL "role" be damned.

What I feel like Phoenix has done is allow Gormley to have the stability of playing top pairing minutes and not rushing him into a third pairing role with the big club simply because he's a prospect with a pedigree. Understanding that the 6th-7th best defender in your organization doesn't by necessity have to be the 6th-7th defender on your team at any given moment is a foreign concept here. He'll be better for it when they call him up and slowly ramp his minutes to where they want him.
A shortened season, you're trying to make the playoffs. You put the players that give you the best chance to win on the ice. Gormley wasn't one of them. On a team filled with 21-25 year old defensemen.

So it's not that they don't like using young guys. Or they don't like giving 21 year olds shots. They just didn't like Gormley last year.

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06-18-2013, 11:36 AM
  #540
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But it's still the 2013 season. JR can't do anything yet.
Paul Holmgren did. We can debate all day if Mark Streit is worth over $5 million a season, but the fact is, Holmgren saw a problem and did something to fix it. JR could do something if he wanted to, and it gets tiring listening to the fans make excuses for him.

FWIW, I think it's a lot of money for Streit, but he's a good player (around 50 points per 82 games), a captain, and he's missed a grand total of 15 games in his seven NHL seasons, so he shows up every night. That's more than we can say for any of our guys on defense.

We can -- and do -- do a lot worse.

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Originally Posted by What the Faulk View Post
If JR can trade down to 7, pick up an extra 2nd, grab Lindholm/Monahan/Nichushkin at 7, Fucale and a defenseman in the 2nd and jettison McBain for a more stay-at-home guy, I'll consider this offseason a success. Getting rid of Pitkanen/Gleason/Ruutu isn't happening for three different reasons.
I predict he'll get exactly none of that done. And when he doesn't, you'll still find a reason to defend him.

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06-18-2013, 12:08 PM
  #541
Finlandia WOAT
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Considering we had Bobby Sangs in the lineup for most of the year and he was anything but an impact player (except for the opposing team), I don't think playing in the big leagues should be any sort of measuring stick.

Is Gormley better than MAB and/Sanguinetti? If so, what's the issue?
Couldn't we get defensemen that are better than MAB and Sanguinetti without giving up the 5th overall?

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06-18-2013, 12:09 PM
  #542
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"Why can't our GM be more like Paul Holmgren!?" Says one person in the entirety of the NHL fan base.

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06-18-2013, 12:22 PM
  #543
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Paul Holmgren did. We can debate all day if Mark Streit is worth over $5 million a season, but the fact is, Holmgren saw a problem and did something to fix it. JR could do something if he wanted to, and it gets tiring listening to the fans make excuses for him.

FWIW, I think it's a lot of money for Streit, but he's a good player (around 50 points per 82 games), a captain, and he's missed a grand total of 15 games in his seven NHL seasons, so he shows up every night. That's more than we can say for any of our guys on defense.

We can -- and do -- do a lot worse.



I predict he'll get exactly none of that done. And when he doesn't, you'll still find a reason to defend him.
Streit missed all 82 games in 2010-2011 FWIW.

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06-18-2013, 12:29 PM
  #544
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i'm not defending jr at all but will freely admit that he certainly knows more about his job than i do or more than 99.9% of all fans do. i don't agree with a lot of things teams do or don't do but that's my laymans opinion. it's a hobby.

i guess the way i see the hurricanes organization is that it must be very difficult to run a small market (or whatever one wants to call it) team and compete in the nhl. i do firmly believe that most fans don't understand all of the dynamics of running a sports business from winning and selling tickets to marketing and selling key chains to community service, myself included if i'm getting across my point.

the staals and their contracts, semin, etc.? i don't know and don't know how to express what i'm thinking even but suffice to say that jr and gang working for the owners know more about it than most that criticize them i'm sure. yes it's their job and perhaps there are others that could do it better. fans have little choice but to go along with it and ***** about it or choose to take an interest in something else. same goes for muller and his job. i am certain i won't like some of the **** he does. or doesn't do.

it's not just all about winning the stanley cup. at least i don't think it is.

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06-18-2013, 12:33 PM
  #545
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Originally Posted by wallym View Post
"Why can't our GM be more like Paul Holmgren!?" Says one person in the entirety of the NHL fan base.
i don't think that's what he's saying or should you have added a ?.

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06-18-2013, 12:48 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by totalkev View Post
Paul Holmgren did. We can debate all day if Mark Streit is worth over $5 million a season, but the fact is, Holmgren saw a problem and did something to fix it. JR could do something if he wanted to, and it gets tiring listening to the fans make excuses for him.

FWIW, I think it's a lot of money for Streit, but he's a good player (around 50 points per 82 games), a captain, and he's missed a grand total of 15 games in his seven NHL seasons, so he shows up every night. That's more than we can say for any of our guys on defense.

We can -- and do -- do a lot worse.



I predict he'll get exactly none of that done. And when he doesn't, you'll still find a reason to defend him.
Holmgren also thought they needed to throw big contracts at both Daniel Briere and Ilya Bryzgalov, and now it looks like they might pay them both a total of $28.3M to not play hockey for them anymore. And they still owe Chris Pronger something like 13 million.

That's nearly a full team's payroll worth of dead money.

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should.

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06-18-2013, 01:26 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by What the Faulk View Post
Holmgren also thought they needed to throw big contracts at both Daniel Briere and Ilya Bryzgalov, and now it looks like they might pay them both a total of $28.3M to not play hockey for them anymore. And they still owe Chris Pronger something like 13 million.

That's nearly a full team's payroll worth of dead money.

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should.
In fairness, I don't think Holmgren thought throwing money at Bryz was a good idea. The mandate to pay a goalie whatever it cost came from the zillionaire owner.

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06-18-2013, 01:57 PM
  #548
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Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should.
For example, I give you the big $$ extensions given to Cam Ward, Jussi Jokinen, Tuomo Ruutu, Joni Pitkanen, Chad LaRose, Jeff Skinner and within a few years, Alex Semin.

Look, for several years now we've been doing this. We've been coming to this site, chatting about all the options we have with our high pick, and if JR does this, that and the other thing, it will be a good offseason. Well, he never does. And it never is. It's one crapfest after another. He falls in love with guys in the middle range of talent and gives them countless chances to become something they are not.

At some point, something has to change or the results will continue to suck. That's all I'm saying. We're wasting our time thinking something will be different this time. Every year at this time I say it, and you guys defend JR. Every year, it's the same thing.

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06-18-2013, 02:12 PM
  #549
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Last off season was one of the best we ever had. Maybe that's not saying much or enough, but saying nothing ever changes after last summer doesn't sound right. I agree absolutely there's patterns here, and most of them are infuriatingly consistent over long periods of time. After last summer I'm willing to see how this summer goes before judging.

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06-18-2013, 02:23 PM
  #550
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Doesn't Barkov still have 1 year left with his other team? Or did he say he'll play in the NHL like Nichuskin? Either way I'd love to get him but I can't see Nashville passing on him

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