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Flyers sign Mark Streit to a multi-year deal [4 yrs, $21m; $5.25 AAV] (post #1)

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06-18-2013, 07:16 AM
  #701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestige Worldwide View Post
Contract is one year too long for sure, but the cap hit/AAV is just right. Honestly, other than giving that 4th year I think Holmgren did fine here and I don't get all the *****ing and complaining. Average defenders who register 40-50 points seem to command 5+ million on the open market over the last couple of years hence it is market value and fair.

Matt Carle 5.5 million
James Wisniewski 5.5 million
Denis Wideman 5.25 million
Keith Yandle 5.25 million (RFA contract)
Mark Streit 5.25 million
Sergei Gonchar 5.0 million

The Flyers were DESPERATE for a mobile top 4 defenseman who could bring some offense and skill to their back end. The fact that they didn't have to overpay in a trade (Couturier, 11th overall pick, and possibly more) or give Streit 6 million a year and a full NTC was definitely a good thing in my opinion. Holmgren messed up big time last summer and put himself in this position to begin with but I think he did fairly well under the circumstances. Time will tell.
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06-18-2013, 07:20 AM
  #702
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
i am going to guess the Flyers chose not to give up any high end assets for a PMD. So they chose to roll the dice on a 35+ defenseman to a multi year deal. While I dont mind that they chose Streit over giving up high end assets to land say Yandle I am not a fan of this contract. It is a huge risk to hand a guy like Streit a 4 year deal.
the money is around what I would of given, but I would of preferred a 2 or 3 year deal.
That yes, but the real reason is their inability to develop anyone to produce similarly, at a younger age, and thus out-play their contract.

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06-18-2013, 07:51 AM
  #703
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Maybe Gus will be that guy in a year or two. I would like to see him and Streit on the second PP unit.

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06-18-2013, 08:00 AM
  #704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestige Worldwide View Post
Contract is one year too long for sure, but the cap hit/AAV is just right. Honestly, other than giving that 4th year I think Holmgren did fine here and I don't get all the *****ing and complaining. Average defenders who register 40-50 points seem to command 5+ million on the open market over the last couple of years hence it is market value and fair.

Matt Carle 5.5 million
James Wisniewski 5.5 million
Denis Wideman 5.25 million
Keith Yandle 5.25 million (RFA contract)
Mark Streit 5.25 million
Sergei Gonchar 5.0 million

The Flyers were DESPERATE for a mobile top 4 defenseman who could bring some offense and skill to their back end. The fact that they didn't have to overpay in a trade (Couturier, 11th overall pick, and possibly more) or give Streit 6 million a year and a full NTC was definitely a good thing in my opinion. Holmgren messed up big time last summer and put himself in this position to begin with but I think he did fairly well under the circumstances. Time will tell.

The only one that is really comparable there is Gonchar. The rest were in their mid to late 20's when they signed those deals, making them much less risky. The cap hit isn't what most people are complaining about (I was expecting somewhere between 5-5.5), but is the length. A 4 year 35+ Contract is a major risk (made even more risky by the NTC) especially for a guy who peaks out as a 2-4 defensemen.

Right now, unless they find a taker for Mez, the Flyers will likely have about 29 million (roughly 45% of the cap) committed to what is at best an average D core. If this contract was an isolated case, I don't think most of us would care. But it speaks to a larger problem which is that the team has horrible cap management skills. Homer was just given 2 get out of jail free cards that will most likely be used on Bryz and Briere. And he's wasted no time replacing those with more bad contracts.

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06-18-2013, 08:09 AM
  #705
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Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
The only one that is really comparable there is Gonchar. The rest were in their mid to late 20's when they signed those deals, making them much less risky. The cap hit isn't what most people are complaining about (I was expecting somewhere between 5-5.5), but is the length. A 4 year 35+ Contract is a major risk (made even more risky by the NTC) especially for a guy who peaks out as a 2-4 defensemen.

Right now, unless they find a taker for Mez, the Flyers will likely have about 29 million (roughly 45% of the cap) committed to what is at best an average D core. If this contract was an isolated case, I don't think most of us would care. But it speaks to a larger problem which is that the team has horrible cap management skills. Homer was just given 2 get out of jail free cards that will most likely be used on Bryz and Briere. And he's wasted no time replacing those with more bad contracts.
This is a great, succinct analysis of Streit's deal within that list of contracts. I would just add that, of that list, how many are considered to be good deals? For two, Carle's was horrible from the start and he's rumoured to be an amnesty candidate, and Wisniewski's was met with wide-eyed stares when it was struck. Plus, it's not just the player and the deal but the team making it. Which of the deal-making clubs currently have a red number on capgeek under cap space? Okay, that was facetious, but fewer will bat eyelashes when an otherwise cap-comfortable team decides on overpaying for a couple of contracts. With our dear squad, you'd think the NHL were taking cap space directly out of Paul Holmgren's children's piggy banks.

To quote a small, out-of-context part of dats81's post "The good thing is that we have a generous owner and a GM who will do anything to win." Unfortunately, "anything" isn't allowed anymore. There is a cap ceiling and a whole lot of other rules about salaries on a team.

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06-18-2013, 08:10 AM
  #706
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Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
The only one that is really comparable there is Gonchar. The rest were in their mid to late 20's when they signed those deals, making them much less risky. The cap hit isn't what most people are complaining about (I was expecting somewhere between 5-5.5), but is the length. A 4 year 35+ Contract is a major risk (made even more risky by the NTC) especially for a guy who peaks out as a 2-4 defensemen.

Right now, unless they find a taker for Mez, the Flyers will likely have about 29 million (roughly 45% of the cap) committed to what is at best an average D core. If this contract was an isolated case, I don't think most of us would care. But it speaks to a larger problem which is that the team has horrible cap management skills. Homer was just given 2 get out of jail free cards that will most likely be used on Bryz and Briere. And he's wasted no time replacing those with more bad contracts.
I was thinking the exact same thing. Remarkable that he would this and it stinks of desperation.

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06-18-2013, 08:21 AM
  #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
The only one that is really comparable there is Gonchar. The rest were in their mid to late 20's when they signed those deals, making them much less risky. The cap hit isn't what most people are complaining about (I was expecting somewhere between 5-5.5), but is the length. A 4 year 35+ Contract is a major risk (made even more risky by the NTC) especially for a guy who peaks out as a 2-4 defensemen.

Right now, unless they find a taker for Mez, the Flyers will likely have about 29 million (roughly 45% of the cap) committed to what is at best an average D core. If this contract was an isolated case, I don't think most of us would care. But it speaks to a larger problem which is that the team has horrible cap management skills. Homer was just given 2 get out of jail free cards that will most likely be used on Bryz and Briere. And he's wasted no time replacing those with more bad contracts.
Even more amazing to think that when that entire D corp got hurt the replacement guys plus schenn looked the best d all year. Who knows maybe mez and couburn are on their way out for a up and coming dman and we plan on shrinking out D cap size significantly.

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06-18-2013, 08:26 AM
  #708
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When i look at Flyers d corps, and when i compare it to other teams (especially NYI), i dont see desperation. pretty solid 1 to 7 now.

I see willingness to improve. i like it. i dont care about the money one bit.

Whats the NYI d corps 1 to 6??? Wouldnt that be closer to desperation?

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06-18-2013, 08:27 AM
  #709
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It isn't that bad guys, It would have been preferable to be at 3 years, but obviously he wanted some security and to end his career in one place. He will essentially be replacing Kimo after next season, so you take Kimo's 6mil per year cap, and replace it with Streits 5.25

Not saying these guys are the same kind of player, but Streit is about as close to what Kimo brings as you get.

We have no idea what the team plans on doing from this point on, I do have a feeling that one of Coburn/Mesz will be gone, definitely a briere Buyout. But we still need at least one of those Dmen moved or Bryz bought out.

Kimo-Schenn
Streit-Coburn/Mesz
Gus-Grossmann

That is how I see it, I highly doubt they will keep one as the 7th with those cap numbers, so we shall see.

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06-18-2013, 08:27 AM
  #710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Enough of these logical, well thought out posts.

We should all just be happy because our team spends money and makes big moves. We win the offseason with our big splashes, who cares about the Cup?

And who cares about the cap, or the fact that we don't have a starting goalie (because Homer traded a Vezina winner to C-Bus for a 2nd round pick)?!? That doesn't matter. The fact that this team can't contend right now doesn't matter. Any chance you have to improve your team, even if only for the short term, you take it. No matter the money, no matter how much it bones you in the long-term.

Mark Streit has made us a potentially top 16 team in the NHL for 2013-2014. Who the heck cares what happens in years 2, 3, and 4? Holmgren sure doesn't. And neither should you (if you're a good fan).

Also, as part of being a good fan, you should act like 38-39 year old defensemen still playing like they are in their 20s is commonplace in the NHL. There's no reason to think Streit has slowed down / will continue to slow down. If that scrub Lidstrom played to 42 and that hack Jagr is still playing at 41, Mark Streit should be good till at least age 45, if not 50...I think that bum Howe was still playing when he was 50...
Kudos for this post. This pretty much sums up the mentality of the fan base. We tend to blame Snider (and he deserves his share), but the fans demanding any move, no matter how terrible it may be, is a huge reason why Holmgren and the Flyers are motivated to make terrible deal after terrible deal.

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06-18-2013, 08:28 AM
  #711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
The only one that is really comparable there is Gonchar. The rest were in their mid to late 20's when they signed those deals, making them much less risky. The cap hit isn't what most people are complaining about (I was expecting somewhere between 5-5.5), but is the length. A 4 year 35+ Contract is a major risk (made even more risky by the NTC) especially for a guy who peaks out as a 2-4 defensemen.

Right now, unless they find a taker for Mez, the Flyers will likely have about 29 million (roughly 45% of the cap) committed to what is at best an average D core. If this contract was an isolated case, I don't think most of us would care. But it speaks to a larger problem which is that the team has horrible cap management skills. Homer was just given 2 get out of jail free cards that will most likely be used on Bryz and Briere. And he's wasted no time replacing those with more bad contracts.
*stands and applauds*

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06-18-2013, 08:29 AM
  #712
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
This is a great, succinct analysis of Streit's deal within that list of contracts. I would just add that, of that list, how many are considered to be good deals? For two, Carle's was horrible from the start and he's rumoured to be an amnesty candidate, and Wisniewski's was met with wide-eyed stares when it was struck. Plus, it's not just the player and the deal but the team making it. Which of the deal-making clubs currently have a red number on capgeek under cap space? Okay, that was facetious, but fewer will bat eyelashes when an otherwise cap-comfortable team decides on overpaying for a couple of contracts. With our dear squad, you'd think the NHL were taking cap space directly out of Paul Holmgren's children's piggy banks.

To quote a small, out-of-context part of dats81's post "The good thing is that we have a generous owner and a GM who will do anything to win." Unfortunately, "anything" isn't allowed anymore. There is a cap ceiling and a whole lot of other rules about salaries on a team.
Right but who determines a good deal? I think Malkins deal is horrible and no one is worth that much to a team outside of hank. Obviously the contracts are pretty set for a dman scoring that many pts a year. Just a question if you want to pay that much for one. I'd rather not. This deal will hamper us in a few years. The only way we get out of it is if streit is hurt and goes on LTIR in a few years which is obviously not cool to root for so we just suck it up.

At least we know we will be better next year and make the playoffs with this and our draft pick additions plus Laughton. The obvious down fall comes when we have to resign our young guys which very well could be all stars by then

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06-18-2013, 08:31 AM
  #713
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When i look at Flyers d corps, and when i compare it to other teams (especially NYI), i dont see desperation. pretty solid 1 to 7 now.

I see willingness to improve. i like it. i dont care about the money one bit.

Whats the NYI d corps 1 to 6??? Wouldnt that be closer to desperation?
That's assuming Timonen and Streit are able to hold up over a full season and the injury prone twins Meszaros and Grossmann are able to stay healthy. There's a lot of what ifs and questions marks there.

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06-18-2013, 08:35 AM
  #714
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Originally Posted by MSSLYNX View Post
When i look at Flyers d corps, and when i compare it to other teams (especially NYI), i dont see desperation. pretty solid 1 to 7 now.

I see willingness to improve. i like it. i dont care about the money one bit.

Whats the NYI d corps 1 to 6??? Wouldnt that be closer to desperation?
Paul, is that you?

The contract itself isn't bad if Streit were 29 years of age. As it stands right now, not including Pronger's cap hit and Gus (who will walk and probably win the Norris next year), the Flyers have almost half the salary cap tied up in an average to below average defense corps where two of the most important pieces are over 35.

Once again, Holmgren has no concept of cap space, why it's important, and how to keep his hand out of his pants until he sees what the actual market price for players is.

Long term planning is a foreign concept to the Flyers. And unless Holmgen & Co. figure out that it's important to construct a team logically, we all might as well settle in for a cycle of make the playoffs-out in first round/miss the playoffs for the foreseeable future.

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06-18-2013, 08:37 AM
  #715
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Right but who determines a good deal? I think Malkins deal is horrible and no one is worth that much to a team outside of hank. Obviously the contracts are pretty set for a dman scoring that many pts a year. Just a question if you want to pay that much for one. I'd rather not. This deal will hamper us in a few years. The only way we get out of it is if streit is hurt and goes on LTIR in a few years which is obviously not cool to root for so we just suck it up.

At least we know we will be better next year and make the playoffs with this and our draft pick additions plus Laughton. The obvious down fall comes when we have to resign our young guys which very well could be all stars by then
That's not even a given. If Streit/Timonen fall off due to age/injury and if Grossmann and/or Mez suffer injuries and goaltending remains an issue they could be once again on the outside looking in while employing the most expensive D in the league. They are relying on a lot of question marks.

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06-18-2013, 08:43 AM
  #716
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maybe you started watching the nhl just last year because Meszaros played 81 or 82 games 5 times out of his 8 years in the league.
Grossmann numbers are fine too in the injury department.
try to look at the bigger picture.
i suppose Prongerwas injury prone too before getting the career-ending
timonen, Coburn, Schenn and now Streit all played injury free for years.
You should not worry ( or count on it to happen...)

just checked the NYI d roster. not nice.

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06-18-2013, 08:46 AM
  #717
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Once again, Holmgren has no concept of cap space, why it's important, and how to keep his hand out of his pants until he sees what the actual market price for players is.
We all know what the market price is for offensive defensemen who put up a lot of points. Around $5 million per year, even if they're in they're 30s.

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06-18-2013, 08:54 AM
  #718
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
That's not even a given. If Streit/Timonen fall off due to age/injury and if Grossmann and/or Mez suffer injuries and goaltending remains an issue they could be once again on the outside looking in while employing the most expensive D in the league. They are relying on a lot of question marks.
What question marks are they relying on? You are worried they will get injured? Anyone on any team can get injured.

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06-18-2013, 08:55 AM
  #719
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Paul, is that you?

The contract itself isn't bad if Streit were 29 years of age. As it stands right now, not including Pronger's cap hit and Gus (who will walk and probably win the Norris next year), the Flyers have almost half the salary cap tied up in an average to below average defense corps where two of the most important pieces are over 35.

Once again, Holmgren has no concept of cap space, why it's important, and how to keep his hand out of his pants until he sees what the actual market price for players is.

Long term planning is a foreign concept to the Flyers. And unless Holmgen & Co. figure out that it's important to construct a team logically, we all might as well settle in for a cycle of make the playoffs-out in first round/miss the playoffs for the foreseeable future.
how did Holmgren's bad management of cap space hurt the Flyers so far?
i remember having to give Gagne to Tampa but what else?
trying to land Weber? signing Bryz who was expected by most fans in the league to be a solution. I blame Bryz more than the gm..
pronger? he did perfectly well while healthy.

Who else got a stupid contact that prevented Philly from doing something else? briere done well early and it was fully expected his production would drop the latter years.

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06-18-2013, 08:56 AM
  #720
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Originally Posted by MSSLYNX View Post
maybe you started watching the nhl just last year because Meszaros played 81 or 82 games 5 times out of his 8 years in the league.
Grossmann numbers are fine too in the injury department.
try to look at the bigger picture.
i suppose Prongerwas injury prone too before getting the career-ending
timonen, Coburn, Schenn and now Streit all played injury free for years.
You should not worry ( or count on it to happen...)

just checked the NYI d roster. not nice.
Pronger DID have a series of injuries before his last one. It goes with the territory when you sign a 35+ year old player. Injuries are going to happen unless your name is Nik Lidstrom.

Look at the bigger picture. Two defensemen at high risk for injury (i.e. over 35 years of age) are taking up almost 20% of the total salary cap.

Every fan should be concerned about the makeup of this Flyers team. Holmgren has already tied his hands before free agency opens, thus increasing the probability that he'll make another bad deal or two to get out from under one or more mistakes he's made.

How often can he do that and get a pass from fans?

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06-18-2013, 09:02 AM
  #721
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Originally Posted by MSSLYNX View Post
how did Holmgren's bad management of cap space hurt the Flyers so far?
i remember having to give Gagne to Tampa but what else?
trying to land Weber? signing Bryz who was expected by most fans in the league to be a solution. I blame Bryz more than the gm..
pronger? he did perfectly well while healthy.

Who else got a stupid contact that prevented Philly from doing something else? briere done well early and it was fully expected his production would drop the latter years.
The Gagne deal was a debacle of epic proportions. Not only did he trade Gagne for a bag of crap, he took back almost as much salary. Monumentally stupid move.

A few years ago, he was forced to move Upshall + 2nd rounder for Daniel Carcillo, so that Giroux could actually play. Otherwise, there wasn't cap space to have Briere come off IR and have Giroux dress.

Bad Contracts: Let's start with Michael ****ing Leighton, shall we? How does a player who isn't even an NHL player get a ****ing raise?? How does a player who played one NHL game during the prior contract get a contract extension? How about paying Jody Shelley more than he ever dreamed of making?? Or let's go with signing Jody Shelley in the first place?

Those are a couple of very quick examples. How the lack of cap space has affected his ability to sign free agents and/or make rational trades is something we'll never know. What we do know is that teams that have cap space available are able to be creative and are not forced to sign the first piece of crap that comes available for fear of losing out on everyone.

Homer's complete and total mismanagement of the salary cap, coupled with Mr. Snider's kneejerk reactions, has made this team the laughingstock it is right now. It's a damn shame that this franchise is in the shape it is right now, with no plan to fix the problem. That's unforgiveable in my books.


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06-18-2013, 09:05 AM
  #722
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I just wish every single one of our D weren't over 3.5

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06-18-2013, 09:06 AM
  #723
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How can you say there is no plan? Do you work in the front office?

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06-18-2013, 09:09 AM
  #724
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All those teams who miss the playoffs more often than not and don't have any money to sign free agents are laughing so hard at the Flyers.

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06-18-2013, 09:09 AM
  #725
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What question marks are they relying on? You are worried they will get injured? Anyone on any team can get injured.
Of course anyone can get injured, but the body tends to break down with age so Timonen and Streit are more likely to tail off and/or get injured. Mez and Grossmann are also more likely to get injured due to their recent health issues. On top of that, goaltending is still a question mark. Granted the offseason is not finished, but right now they need everything to go right for them to make the playoffs.

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