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Flyers sign Mark Streit to a multi-year deal [4 yrs, $21m; $5.25 AAV] (post #1)

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06-18-2013, 09:09 AM
  #726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
The Gagne deal was a debacle of epic proportions. Not only did he trade Gagne for a bag of crap, he took back almost as much salary. Monumentally stupid move.

A few years ago, he was forced to move Upshall + 2nd rounder for Daniel Carcillo, so that Giroux could actually play. Otherwise, there wasn't cap space to have Briere come off IR and have Giroux dress.

Bad Contracts: Let's start with Michael ****ing Leighton, shall we? How does a player who isn't even an NHL player get a ****ing raise?? How does a player who played one NHL game during the prior contract get a contract extension? How about paying Jody Shelley more than he ever dreamed of making?? Or let's go with signing Jody Shelley in the first place?

Those are a couple of very quick examples. How the lack of cap space has affected his ability to sign free agents and/or make rational trades is something we'll never know. What we do know is that teams that have cap space available are able to be creative and are not forced to sign the first piece of crap that comes available for fear of losing out on everyone.

Homer's complete and total mismanagement of the salary cap, coupled with Mr. Snider's kneejerk reactions, has made this team the laughingstock it is right now. It's a damn shame that this franchise is in the shape it is right now, with no plan to fix the problem. That's unforgiveable in my books.
Laughingstock? Shape the franchise is in? Could you please elaborate on that?

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06-18-2013, 09:10 AM
  #727
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Originally Posted by Codith View Post
How can you say there is no plan? Do you work in the front office?
Are you trying to say there is a logical plan for constructing this team? Please expand. I'm interested to know how getting a bunch of young forwards, old defense and questionable goaltending makes sense.

I'm interested to know what happens when the young forwards are in their prime and ready to contend. You know, when half the defense is ready to retire?

I'm interested to know what the plan is for goaltending. Are all the Flyers' eggs in Steve Mason's basket? Or is there a prospect pool to draw from?

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06-18-2013, 09:11 AM
  #728
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talk about overreacting

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06-18-2013, 09:15 AM
  #729
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Originally Posted by MSSLYNX View Post
maybe you started watching the nhl just last year because Meszaros played 81 or 82 games 5 times out of his 8 years in the league.
Grossmann numbers are fine too in the injury department.
try to look at the bigger picture.
i suppose Prongerwas injury prone too before getting the career-ending
timonen, Coburn, Schenn and now Streit all played injury free for years.
You should not worry ( or count on it to happen...)

just checked the NYI d roster. not nice.
You should count on it happening when you're dealing with older players. Coburn, Schenn, and Grossmann don't apply because they aren't 35+ years old. Timonen has been injured every year for how many seasons in a row now? Just because he plays through it doesn't mean he isn't banged up and less effective.

Every player is different, and Steit could wind up having 4 solid seasons here, but that isn't what you should be expecting. You should be expecting 1-2 good years and 2-3 where he struggles or is injured. As a GM you cannot be optimistic, you have to be realistic. That is why this is a bad contract.

The plus side of this is it does fill a very real need, and it may have been to the price Holmgren had to pay to do what he thought was helping his defense without giving up one of his young forwards. The problem I have with it is that we are ridding ourselves of bad contracts as we add another. There will be no buyout to save us from Streit; Holmgren got lucky with Briere and Bryz.

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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
What question marks are they relying on? You are worried they will get injured? Anyone on any team can get injured.
And the chance of that happening increases as you age. Did you slide down the steps when you were a kid? Go do that now and see if it still feels like fun lol...or I could just direct you to the Phillies, who don't even play a contact sport.

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06-18-2013, 09:16 AM
  #730
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Replacing Kimmo with Streit is an entirely sensible plan, it just so happens that Timonen is hanging around for another season. His cap hit, along with that of Briere, Bryzglaov and Mezaros will in all likelihood be off the books by the time the young forwards need raises.

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06-18-2013, 09:16 AM
  #731
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Originally Posted by MSSLYNX View Post
When i look at Flyers d corps, and when i compare it to other teams (especially NYI), i dont see desperation. pretty solid 1 to 7 now.

I see willingness to improve. i like it. i dont care about the money one bit.

Whats the NYI d corps 1 to 6??? Wouldnt that be closer to desperation?
Are the Islanders really your measuring stick? We are rebuilding (as always) with a payroll less than half the size of the Flyers. The Islanders are stocked with defense prospects: Reinhart, Donovan, Pokka, De Haan, Mayfield, Pelech, etc. Hopefully with the move to Brooklyn, the Isles finally can attract some free agents after next year to really help. In the meantime, we're just happy to make the playoffs.

That said, of course it will look ugly now with the Isles tiny payroll and the prospects not quite there yet. If having a better D group than the Isles is really your goal, you don't have very high hopes for your team. I'm not sure how comparing your D group to the Isles could possibly justify signing Streit to that deal. He's a great guy and still a solid enough player despite his decline in the last couple of years, but based on his age, signing a guy already starting to decline to a 4 year deal isn't the smartest move.

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06-18-2013, 09:22 AM
  #732
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Laughingstock? Shape the franchise is in? Could you please elaborate on that?
Gladly. Wish I didn't have to.

All you have to do is read the main boards here to see how many fans of other teams have laughed at Holmgren's moves in the last few years. How often journalists (not the Flyers' bozos, but real journalists) have questioned Holmgren's moves and/or wondered what the hell the team is doing. Do you honestly think that the Flyers' goaltending woes aren't a huge joke around the league?

As far as the franchise goes, desperation move after desperation move has left this team poorly constructed both now and going into the future. The forwards are young (for the most part) and the defense is old (for the most part although that was starting to be addressed before Holmgren spent $5 million on an old defenseman). Goaltending is STILL a huge question mark. The coach plays a style that the personnel is not suited to, and pond hockey is what results. When was the last time a purely offensive team won anything?

The prospect pool is very shallow unless you want 4th line grinder types. Holmgren has been forced to sign a bunch of college free agents to replenish that group and play on the Phantoms. Some have worked (Read has been fantastic); the rest are career AHL'ers or traded/released. Having young players on inexpensive contracts is a necessity in a salary cap world. It allows a team to have a couple of high priced stars and stay cap compliant. It allows a team to have some flexibility at the trade deadline.

There are more issues than this, but it's a start.

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06-18-2013, 09:23 AM
  #733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
And the chance of that happening increases as you age. Did you slide down the steps when you were a kid? Go do that now and see if it still feels like fun lol...or I could just direct you to the Phillies, who don't even play a contact sport.
Sure it is more of a possibility, but that doesn't mean that Streit and Timonen are now question marks. If this was like a 38 year old Sami Salo type player coming in on a four year deal who has rarely broken 70 games in his career, then I would call him a question mark. Streit missed an entire season because of a shoulder issue that does not appear to be of any concern at this point. That doesn't make him a question mark in my book.

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06-18-2013, 09:27 AM
  #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Are you trying to say there is a logical plan for constructing this team? Please expand. I'm interested to know how getting a bunch of young forwards, old defense and questionable goaltending makes sense.

I'm interested to know what happens when the young forwards are in their prime and ready to contend. You know, when half the defense is ready to retire?

I'm interested to know what the plan is for goaltending. Are all the Flyers' eggs in Steve Mason's basket? Or is there a prospect pool to draw from?


How should we know? we aren't management, but to think that upper-management doesn't have a plan in place is nonsense. Every team, every business has some sort of plan or road map. It might not make sense to everyone at times, but they have some kind of road map in place. In sports, these get changed all the time. Sometimes the choices they go with don't work out the way they expected, we aren't the only team that deals with this. If things don't work out in one way, you have to adjust things to fit on different scales. IF Briere/Bryz are bought out, then there is room to make particular moves. Do we know what else they have planned? No, but they are definitely assessing possible moves that would correspond with buyouts, what the draft day plans are, are there short term Free agent signings we make this year, or do we target certain players next Summer. You make it sound like we are the only team with issues, wake up and realize there are at least 25+ or so teams that have their own issues.

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06-18-2013, 09:28 AM
  #735
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headscratcher.

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Old
06-18-2013, 09:31 AM
  #736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Gladly. Wish I didn't have to.

All you have to do is read the main boards here to see how many fans of other teams have laughed at Holmgren's moves in the last few years. How often journalists (not the Flyers' bozos, but real journalists) have questioned Holmgren's moves and/or wondered what the hell the team is doing. Do you honestly think that the Flyers' goaltending woes aren't a huge joke around the league?
Oh no! HF Boards fans make fun of the Flyers! That is irrelevant. As far as the journalists, I'd like to see some of these articles you are talking about. Not saying that they don't exist, but I would like to see what you are talking about before I comment on it.

Quote:
As far as the franchise goes, desperation move after desperation move has left this team poorly constructed both now and going into the future. The forwards are young (for the most part) and the defense is old (for the most part although that was starting to be addressed before Holmgren spent $5 million on an old defenseman). Goaltending is STILL a huge question mark. The coach plays a style that the personnel is not suited to, and pond hockey is what results. When was the last time a purely offensive team won anything?
There have been some pretty big desperation moves, I will give you that. I wouldn't say the team is poorly constructed though. A lot of what you are noting in this block of text is consistent with the rest of the league. Goaltending is a pretty big question mark for a lot of teams, not just the Flyers. The Flyers defense is old for the most part? Besides Streit and Timonen the Flyers Defense is: 28, 23, 24, 28, 27. I guess we have different definitions of the word old. How old should they be? All under 25? Come on. As far as the coach is concerned, I agree in some respects, but I don't think having a bad coach is some sort of indictment of the franchise at this point. If he is not successful this year, I would bet he would be gone.

Quote:
The prospect pool is very shallow unless you want 4th line grinder types. Holmgren has been forced to sign a bunch of college free agents to replenish that group and play on the Phantoms. Some have worked (Read has been fantastic); the rest are career AHL'ers or traded/released. Having young players on inexpensive contracts is a necessity in a salary cap world. It allows a team to have a couple of high priced stars and stay cap compliant. It allows a team to have some flexibility at the trade deadline.
I agree, the prospect pool is shallow. But the youth on the NHL team is pretty impressive. That doesn't mean the shallow prospect pool gets a pass, but it helps. I also wouldn't call that an indictment of the state of the franchise or call them a laughing stock because of it.

Quote:
There are more issues than this, but it's a start.
Good point. This team is a joke. Simply embarassing.

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06-18-2013, 09:34 AM
  #737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Laughingstock? Shape the franchise is in? Could you please elaborate on that?
I think he already did elaborate by detailing some of just a few of the horrible moves made by Paul Holmgren and endorsed by Ed Snider.

Do you think any team in the NHL dreads facing the Flyers anymore?

This team is a push over, thanks to the moronic moves by the former goon player who now makes the decisions.

Fire Holmgren NOW! Before the draft!!

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06-18-2013, 09:35 AM
  #738
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Gladly. Wish I didn't have to.

All you have to do is read the main boards here to see how many fans of other teams have laughed at Holmgren's moves in the last few years. How often journalists (not the Flyers' bozos, but real journalists) have questioned Holmgren's moves and/or wondered what the hell the team is doing. Do you honestly think that the Flyers' goaltending woes aren't a huge joke around the league?

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06-18-2013, 09:37 AM
  #739
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This might be one of my favorite posts

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06-18-2013, 09:39 AM
  #740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJim View Post
I think he already did elaborate by detailing some of just a few of the horrible moves made by Paul Holmgren and endorsed by Ed Snider.

Do you think any team in the NHL dreads facing the Flyers anymore?

This team is a push over, thanks to the moronic moves by the former goon player who now makes the decisions.

Fire Holmgren NOW! Before the draft!!
Oh so all you have to do is list some moves he made and that's the end of the discussion? What if I list some of his good moves, would that change it? Because there are far more good moves that had more of an impact than the bad ones.

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06-18-2013, 09:43 AM
  #741
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Sure it is more of a possibility, but that doesn't mean that Streit and Timonen are now question marks. If this was like a 38 year old Sami Salo type player coming in on a four year deal who has rarely broken 70 games in his career, then I would call him a question mark. Streit missed an entire season because of a shoulder issue that does not appear to be of any concern at this point. That doesn't make him a question mark in my book.
They are question marks though because of their age. You would not have people wondering if they'll make it through a full season if they were 25, but because they're 35+ it is totally reasonable to have doubt.

Briere pretty much fell off a cliff this past season after only having a major injury in 1 out of the last 6 years. We saw the machine that was Doc Halladay just fall apart. It can happen to anyone, even Timonen.

You have to expect older players to have difficulties even if they haven't shown signs of it yet because players playing well into their late 30's early 40's are the exception, not the rule.

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06-18-2013, 09:46 AM
  #742
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Gladly. Wish I didn't have to.

All you have to do is read the main boards here to see how many fans of other teams have laughed at Holmgren's moves in the last few years. How often journalists (not the Flyers' bozos, but real journalists) have questioned Holmgren's moves and/or wondered what the hell the team is doing. Do you honestly think that the Flyers' goaltending woes aren't a huge joke around the league?

As far as the franchise goes, desperation move after desperation move has left this team poorly constructed both now and going into the future. The forwards are young (for the most part) and the defense is old (for the most part although that was starting to be addressed before Holmgren spent $5 million on an old defenseman). Goaltending is STILL a huge question mark. The coach plays a style that the personnel is not suited to, and pond hockey is what results. When was the last time a purely offensive team won anything?

The prospect pool is very shallow unless you want 4th line grinder types. Holmgren has been forced to sign a bunch of college free agents to replenish that group and play on the Phantoms. Some have worked (Read has been fantastic); the rest are career AHL'ers or traded/released. Having young players on inexpensive contracts is a necessity in a salary cap world. It allows a team to have a couple of high priced stars and stay cap compliant. It allows a team to have some flexibility at the trade deadline.

There are more issues than this, but it's a start.


That's awesome, thanks for the laugh.

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06-18-2013, 09:49 AM
  #743
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
There have been some pretty big desperation moves, I will give you that. I wouldn't say the team is poorly constructed though. A lot of what you are noting in this block of text is consistent with the rest of the league. Goaltending is a pretty big question mark for a lot of teams, not just the Flyers. The Flyers defense is old for the most part? Besides Streit and Timonen the Flyers Defense is: 28, 23, 24, 28, 27. I guess we have different definitions of the word old. How old should they be? All under 25? Come on. As far as the coach is concerned, I agree in some respects, but I don't think having a bad coach is some sort of indictment of the franchise at this point. If he is not successful this year, I would bet he would be gone.
I think that it's not as cut-and-dry as 'look, they're not old.' How many of the Flyers' dmen can be the guy? One: Kimmo, and he's not as good as he was. Effective, yes, but he's not a clear-cut 1A in the NHL anymore, especially for a team that wants to go deep. All of the other guys, while young, are complementary players, not go-to players. That's a problem.

Also, I'm really not sure how or why anybody thinks that the Flyers have an actual plan. They've been doing things by the seat of their pants pretty much since the summer of 2006 and I haven't seen much change. They're impulsive, impatient, and like to [try to] make big moves.

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06-18-2013, 09:51 AM
  #744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Gladly. Wish I didn't have to.

All you have to do is read the main boards here to see how many fans of other teams have laughed at Holmgren's moves in the last few years. How often journalists (not the Flyers' bozos, but real journalists) have questioned Holmgren's moves and/or wondered what the hell the team is doing. Do you honestly think that the Flyers' goaltending woes aren't a huge joke around the league?

As far as the franchise goes, desperation move after desperation move has left this team poorly constructed both now and going into the future. The forwards are young (for the most part) and the defense is old (for the most part although that was starting to be addressed before Holmgren spent $5 million on an old defenseman). Goaltending is STILL a huge question mark. The coach plays a style that the personnel is not suited to, and pond hockey is what results. When was the last time a purely offensive team won anything?

The prospect pool is very shallow unless you want 4th line grinder types. Holmgren has been forced to sign a bunch of college free agents to replenish that group and play on the Phantoms. Some have worked (Read has been fantastic); the rest are career AHL'ers or traded/released. Having young players on inexpensive contracts is a necessity in a salary cap world. It allows a team to have a couple of high priced stars and stay cap compliant. It allows a team to have some flexibility at the trade deadline.

There are more issues than this, but it's a start.
Lack a goaltender? Overpay one forever, right away!
Lack a dman? Overpay one forever, right away!

Repeat, annually. Maybe if they actually built towards the future instead of just flying around the FA and trade markets on bath salts in the offseason, they could construct a team that actually wins a Cup instead of merely qualifying for the Playoffs...which is what we usually have, and what we will have for the forseeable future. Maybe then they wouldn't have an outrageously expensive defense and an offense that relies on RFA and ELC contracts to stay intact as a result. Maybe then they can build their own Cup team instead of someone else's.

The Bob debacle is a great example of an organization without a long-term plan. Any sensible front office would have developed that guy. The Flyers? Nah. They elect to overpay a FA goalie for nearly a decade or his decline years then trade away the awesome G prospect. Yeah, solid long-term planning there. There is no long-term plan. The plan changes every damned summer.

The general cap situation is another. That's just a nonstop patchwork held together by hope and drool.

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06-18-2013, 09:52 AM
  #745
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The mainboards applauded and quaked with fear when we signed Bryzgalov.

I facepalmed and sighed at our own stupidity.

The mainboards jeered us when we traded for Mason.

I was enthused by having another potential legitimate option that actually gave a crap.



Good barometer of how the Flyers are doing with any decision? Take the direct opposite of the mass consensus opinion on the main boards.

People there see Couturier as a 20-point forward.

We see him as an elite shut-down forward at 20 with 65-70 point potential.


I mean, any argument that starts off "the main boards are laughing at us" is almost doomed for failure by its very nature.


Carey Price was once worth Claude Giroux + 1st donchaknow.

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06-18-2013, 09:53 AM
  #746
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
They are question marks though because of their age. You would not have people wondering if they'll make it through a full season if they were 25, but because they're 35+ it is totally reasonable to have doubt.

Briere pretty much fell off a cliff this past season after only having a major injury in 1 out of the last 6 years. We saw the machine that was Doc Halladay just fall apart. It can happen to anyone, even Timonen.

You have to expect older players to have difficulties even if they haven't shown signs of it yet because players playing well into their late 30's early 40's are the exception, not the rule.
See I don't see it that way. I think that is paranoia. Yes it is more likely that a 35+ guy slows down or gets injured, but that doesn't make a healthy 35+ guy a question mark. I understand what you are saying, and maybe you are just more of a worrier than I am, but to me if Streit is healthy now and Timonen is healthy now, the fact that they are over 35 doesn't make them question marks in my book. If they were going into the season with nagging injuries (which Timonen may be IIRC) then I understand the question mark. But at least in the case of Streit, unless there is something I am not aware of, he is healthy.

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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
I think that it's not as cut-and-dry as 'look, they're not old.' How many of the Flyers' dmen can be the guy? One: Kimmo, and he's not as good as he was. Effective, yes, but he's not a clear-cut 1A in the NHL anymore, especially for a team that wants to go deep. All of the other guys, while young, are complementary players, not go-to players. That's a problem.
Well that is a completely different argument. Saying the Flyers don't have a #1 defenseman is different than saying the Flyers defense is old for the most part.

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06-18-2013, 09:54 AM
  #747
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I asked this same question last night and no one wanted to answer it. And let me say that after the season I wanted Homer and Lavy to be replaced. I was also hoping for a 3 year contract for Streit.

For those of you who are against signing streit, how would you improve the defense for next year? Would you just sit tight with kimmo, schenn, coburn, grossmann, Mez, and Gus? There aren't really any UFA who have much offensive abilities other than streit. I guess we could offer sheet someone. I don't think there is a realistic offer sheet out there who could get #1 guys like pieteangelo and bogosian. I guess we could try for guys like shattenkirk, leddy, mcdonagh or wiercioch but the amount of money you would have to give them for the team not to match would make them overpaid and you would likely have to give up good draft picks. I just do not see many options without blowing up the team once again

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06-18-2013, 09:55 AM
  #748
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They are question marks though because of their age. You would not have people wondering if they'll make it through a full season if they were 25, but because they're 35+ it is totally reasonable to have doubt.

Briere pretty much fell off a cliff this past season after only having a major injury in 1 out of the last 6 years. We saw the machine that was Doc Halladay just fall apart. It can happen to anyone, even Timonen.

You have to expect older players to have difficulties even if they haven't shown signs of it yet because players playing well into their late 30's early 40's are the exception, not the rule.
You make some good points, but 25 year old defensemen that are capable of 40-50 point seasons make more than what Streit is about to get. Those guys will demand 7+ on the opern market. See: Kris Letang.

I still don't get what the huge deal is about this signing. I really don't have as much of a problem with the cap hit as I do with the fourth year. Year after year teams overpay UFA's, it's not anything that's new in the NHL. Just wait until July 5th when guys like Horton and Clowe are getting north of 5 million easily. I could even see a desperate team throwing 6 million a year at Horton.

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06-18-2013, 09:59 AM
  #749
DecadesofFutility
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Fire Holmgren Now !!!

This is why we can never build a decent defense.
No need for 35+ year old defensemen.
Patchwork signing when you need to rebuild the defense corp.
Stupid, Useless waste of cap space.


We need to trade some overvalued assets and pics
for a younger #1 or #2 defenseman, one with offensive ability.

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06-18-2013, 10:01 AM
  #750
CS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Fire Holmgren Now !!!

This is why we can never build a decent defense.
Patchwork signings when you need to rebuild.
Stupid, Useless waste of cap space.
.............

Pronger - Carle
Timonen - Coburn

Our 2010 top 4 is calling you out on your BS.

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