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The Rumors and Speculation Thread #6

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Old
06-19-2013, 07:42 AM
  #551
chimrichalds18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
So was Voynov going to be part of the deal? I think I would have done it. Read, Coburn, and 11 for Bernier, Voynov and another defender? Damn.
If that was the deal, then Holmgren made a mistake. Voynov's the best player in there. Still, we don't know all the details. I would actually be surprised if Lombardi were to go through with that given his -- and his team's -- focus on good defensemen.

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06-19-2013, 07:45 AM
  #552
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I don't believe Lombardi would have given up Voynov in that deal since Voynov is younger, better, cheaper and signed for longer than Coburn. He could still just trade Read for Bernier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
That's ok. Did you see what Carchidi said earlier? He asked if we'd do Couts and the 11th for Bernier. Between him, T.P. and Randy Miller, you have to wonder how these guys have jobs.
I thought Carchidi was at least somewhat sensible till I saw him say that on Twitter. How can a Flyers beat writer be so far off base when it comes to player value? Bernier isn't worth either Couturier or the 11th pick, let alone both of them.

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06-19-2013, 07:49 AM
  #553
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Really? Would you trade Voracek and #26 for Read, Coburn, and #11?
Voracek is the better all around player. Ryan is a more productive JVR. If the Flyers were in Anahiems position, I would seriously think about. Their window is open now and will probably be only open for the next few years as Perry and Getzlaf will start to decline. They need another top 4 defenseman and a top flight center. Good centers go quick in the draft. The center they get at 11 like Hovat or Wennberg is way better than the one they get at 26, or for the next few drafts in the 20s for that matter. It all depends on how one views the 11th pick. For the Flyers, the 11th pick is not as important since they don't need a quality center but need a quality defenseman, which you are as likely to get at 26 as you are at 11. But for a team in need of a center, you have to pick early or you will be stuck with the Peter Hollands of the world. So you get a top 2 center prospect, a top 4 defensemen, and a 20+ goal scoring versatile forward for a one dimensional (a great dimension) 30+ goal scorer and the 26 overall pick, which is where you traditionally get 3rd line centers. I don't see how its such a terrible trade.


Last edited by Psuhockey: 06-19-2013 at 08:00 AM.
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06-19-2013, 07:52 AM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
I don't believe Lombardi would have given up Voynov in that deal since Voynov is younger, better, cheaper and signed for longer than Coburn. He could still just trade Read for Bernier.



I thought Carchidi was at least somewhat sensible till I saw him say that on Twitter. How can a Flyers beat writer be so far off base when it comes to player value? Bernier isn't worth either Couturier or the 11th pick, let alone both of them.
Yea then today he runs "will Brad Richards replace Briere?" It's national enquirer level sillyness. What a joke.

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06-19-2013, 07:55 AM
  #555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Voracek is the better all around player. Ryan is a more productive JVR. If the Flyers were in Anahiems position, I would seriously think about. Their window is open now and will probably be only open for the next few years as Perry and Getzlaf will start to decline. They need another top 4 defenseman and a top flight center. Good centers go quick in the draft. The center they get at 11 like Hovat or Wennberg is way better than the one they get at 26, or for the next few drafts in the 20s for that matter. It all depends on how one views the 11th pick. For the Flyers, the 11th pick is not as important since they don't need a quality center but need a quality defenseman, which you are as likely to get at 26 as you are at 11. But for a team in need of a center, you have to pick early or you will be stuck with the Peter Hollands of the world.
Idk. I think Read, Coburn, and 11 is a pretty solid deal to get Ryan. I'd take Ryan every day of the week over Read. Coburn I like and I think gets **** on way too much around here, but I think either he or Mez is on the way out anyway. #11 obviously I'd like to hang on to, but again, for a guy like Bobby Ryan to play on the top line with G and Voracek, I'd wave bye-bye to that pick and just use #41 to get a defender in this deep draft.

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06-19-2013, 07:57 AM
  #556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Idk. I think Read, Coburn, and 11 is a pretty solid deal to get Ryan. I'd take Ryan every day of the week over Read. Coburn I like and I think gets **** on way too much around here, but I think either he or Mez is on the way out anyway. #11 obviously I'd like to hang on to, but again, for a guy like Bobby Ryan to play on the top line with G and Voracek, I'd wave bye-bye to that pick and just use #41 to get a defender in this deep draft.
We got Lauridsen super deep and he's a beast.

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06-19-2013, 08:04 AM
  #557
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Originally Posted by GingerFetish View Post
We got Lauridsen super deep and he's a beast.
Not sure I'd call him a beast. "Fringe NHLer" is probably a better term. Also what does that have to do with trading for Bobby Ryan?

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06-19-2013, 08:06 AM
  #558
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Not sure I'd call him a beast. "Fringe NHLer" is probably a better term. Also what does that have to do with trading for Bobby Ryan?
I think that supports your argument for trading the pick and drafting a dman later.

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06-19-2013, 08:13 AM
  #559
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
I think that supports your argument for trading the pick and drafting a dman later.
Bingo.

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06-19-2013, 08:22 AM
  #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
I think that supports your argument for trading the pick and drafting a dman later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerFetish View Post
Bingo.
Haha, well Oliver Luaridsen would not have been my choice of players to mention for drafting D-men.

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Old
06-19-2013, 08:23 AM
  #561
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Voynov is not as good as we think.
Bernier is not as valuable as LA fans think.
Read is better/more valuable than anyone thinks.
Ryan is less valuable than anyone thinks.
Sbisa is more valuable than we think.
Coburn doesn't think, but has significant value I think.

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Old
06-19-2013, 08:27 AM
  #562
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Lombardi wouldn't give up Voynov for Richards, so hard to believe he would have for Coburn.

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06-19-2013, 08:28 AM
  #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Voynov is not as good as we think.
Bernier is not as valuable as LA fans think.
Read is better/more valuable than anyone thinks.
Ryan is less valuable than anyone thinks.
Sbisa is more valuable than we think.
Coburn doesn't think, but has significant value I think.
haha

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Old
06-19-2013, 08:29 AM
  #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Voynov is not as good as we think.
Bernier is not as valuable as LA fans think.
Read is better/more valuable than anyone thinks.
Ryan is less valuable than anyone thinks.
Sbisa is more valuable than we think.
Coburn doesn't think, but has significant value I think.
I agree with some of this. Voynov you are probably right. Bernier you are probably right. Read I think you are wrong. Ryan I think you are wrong. Sbisa I think you are wrong. Coburn I think you are right.

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06-19-2013, 08:30 AM
  #565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Voynov is not as good as we think.
Bernier is not as valuable as LA fans think.
Read is better/more valuable than anyone thinks.
Ryan is less valuable than anyone thinks.
Sbisa is more valuable than we think.
Coburn doesn't think, but has significant value I think.
Mesz thinks, but racks up significant value in hospital bills.

I agree with

Quote:
Voynov is not as good as we think.
Bernier is not as valuable as LA fans think.
Read is better/more valuable than anyone thinks.
Ryan is less valuable than anyone thinks.
Last 2 are pretty opinionated compared to the former which can usually be thought of in consensus.

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Old
06-19-2013, 08:55 AM
  #566
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Idk. I think Read, Coburn, and 11 is a pretty solid deal to get Ryan.
That would be a huge overpayment for a guy two years from being a free agent.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...9#.UcGrZpx7xCg

Quote:
In similar fashion, in recent years, there has been an annual round of rumors tying the Flyers to a potential trade for Anaheim Ducks winger Bobby Ryan. There is little doubt there are at least some decision-makers around the team who still covet the Cherry Hill native.

My own feelings on Ryan haven't changed from last year. Despite a bit of a down year this past season, he remains a fine offensive winger who can be relied on for 30-plus goals in a full season. But he has limitations. The reality of Ryan's overall game is that he's similar player to another former second overall draft pick, ex-Flyer James van Riemsdyk (who, in his fourth NHL season, outproduced sixth-season NHLer Ryan this year in both goals and points). If you didn't like JVR when you watched him on an every-game basis, you probably won't like Ryan much better.

Both players tend to be streaky in their production. Both are no better than ordinary as a defensive players. Lastly, for players of their size, their physical games can be spotty. But when they're on, they can score in bunches.

I would certainly have no objection to seeing the Flyers add Ryan. But I don't personally covet him enough to see the Flyers put together a multi-piece package, including the 11th overall pick of the 2013 Draft, to acquire him.

As least the way I see it, the team has bigger holes than lacking a winger such as Bobby Ryan. Those needs starts with a long-term mission to rebuild the top end of the blueline (signing Mark Streit adds an offensive specialist, not a top-pairing anchor) . In my opinion, the organization is better off right now stockpiling assets and building system depth at all level, not depleting from it for quick fixes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Voracek is the better all around player. Ryan is a more productive JVR.
Overall, but not this year.

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06-19-2013, 08:58 AM
  #567
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Maybe its voynov for the young top 2, Muzzin for the young top 4 and Bernier....holmgren is trying to have something more maybe a pick back and that why he is waiting...but IMO thats a ***** good deal for both team even if Flyers have the better part of it...cuz LA gets Read for Bernier (two needs for both team, LA like two way fowards and they need a 3rd liner badly who is a top 6 potential), coburn to replace muzzin (nothing there Coburn 7.0 A and Muzzin 7.0 C in hockeyfuture) and a 11th overall for voynov (risky move for LA, if they do it they want the entry level salary of a pick playing on the 2013 roster cuz of their cap hit)....To make it more plausible for LA add laughton and its pretty fair.

So Read, Coburn, laughton, 11th overall
for
Bernier, Muzzin, voynov


FORWARDS
Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Scott Hartnell ($4.750m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Wayne Simmonds ($3.975m)
Simon Gagne ($2.000m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Tye McGinn ($0.775m)
Jay Rosehill ($0.675m) / Adam Hall ($0.650m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.750m)
Eric Wellwood ($0.700m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.000m) / Slava Voynov ($4.167m)
Jake Muzzin ($2.500m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Mark Streit ($5.250m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Erik Gustafsson ($1.000m) / Bruno Gervais ($0.825m)
GOALTENDERS
Jonathan Bernier ($3.000m)
Steve Mason ($1.500m)
OTHER
Buyout: Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
Buyout: Danny Briere ($0.000m)
Buyout: Ilya Bryzgalov ($0.000m)
Buyout: Chris Pronger ($0.000m)

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Old
06-19-2013, 08:58 AM
  #568
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If we have to give up our 1st to get Ryan, I'd rather just wait til he hits ufa and sign him then, because its pretty likely he'll want to sign here anyway

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06-19-2013, 09:00 AM
  #569
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And in two years that #11 pick could be a very good NHL player.

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06-19-2013, 09:04 AM
  #570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lancer247 View Post
No way you get Ryan w/o Coots or the #11 pick in the deal.

Coots/#11, Read/Coburn and 2014 1st for Ryan and Sbisa/Winnik
Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
If we have to give up our 1st to get Ryan, I'd rather just wait til he hits ufa and sign him then, because its pretty likely he'll want to sign here anyway
Me too. If it is next years first then I would be on board

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06-19-2013, 09:13 AM
  #571
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Voynov is not as good as we think.
Why are we still talking about Voynov? He just signed long term in L.A. He's going nowhere.
Quote:
Bernier is not as valuable as LA fans think.
I'm with you there...but simply for the fact that L.A. obviously can't continue to hold onto Bernier and teams know that Bernier wants to go to a team where he'll be the starting goalie. He is an unproven quantity and shouldn't command a king's ransom. :ba dum tsh:
Quote:
Read is better/more valuable than anyone thinks.
Totally agree. Read is one of my favorite Flyers. He's got it all - speed, shot, playmaking, defensive awareness, ability to play in all situation and adapt to whomever he plays with. I'll hate to see him go, but the truth is that we likely can't afford to retain him after next season, so it might be in our best interest to deal him while his value is high. I know many will disagree with me, but I would be okay with trading Read straight up for Bernier. Despite the fact that I am on board with the thinking that Bernier shouldn't command as much in a trade as Kings fans would like, I do think he will be a top-15 starting goalie in this league and I desperately want him in the orange & black. The thought of having him and Mason in net next year brings me hope that we could finally have a stable goalie situation.
Quote:
Ryan is less valuable than anyone thinks.
I strongly disagree. Ryan has scored 30+ goals in every full season he's played. And for much of the time, he's been relegated to the 2nd PP unit in Anaheim. 30-goal scorers don't grow on trees. Ryan is one of the best power forwards in the game today, and he's only 26. The guy is becoming severely underrated due to the trade rumors that have been swirling around him for years.
Quote:
Sbisa is more valuable than we think.
I would love to have Sbisa back, but I think Flyers fans have some unjustifiable obsession with the guy due to the fact that he is one of the only defensemen we've drafted in years that turned out to be decent...and then we traded him. Anaheim fans don't seem to be enamored with him, especially after his rather disappointing performance this season. He's a good young player, but he's not going to be an All-Star anytime soon.
Quote:
Coburn doesn't think, but has significant value I think.
Agreed. Coburn has quickly become dramatically undervalued. Remember how much everybody loved him during the playoffs last season, especially after his incredible performance against Pittsburgh? Coburn had a disappointing year. And yes, he's kind of dumb. But he does have tools that most defensemen could only dream of - size, skating, hard shot, decent hands. I'd be open to trading Coburn (and keeping Meszaros) if we could get Ryan. But barring someone valuable coming back, I think we need to keep Coburn. His cap hit isn't bad at all, in my opinion at least. He's a great #2-3 defenseman. Just don't ask him to be a #1 and he will be just fine.

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06-19-2013, 09:15 AM
  #572
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
And in two years that #11 pick could be a very good NHL player.
Or in two years that #11 pick could be a very good ECHL player.

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Old
06-19-2013, 09:17 AM
  #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfromquebec View Post
Maybe its voynov for the young top 2, Muzzin for the young top 4 and Bernier....holmgren is trying to have something more maybe a pick back and that why he is waiting...but IMO thats a ***** good deal for both team even if Flyers have the better part of it...cuz LA gets Read for Bernier (two needs for both team, LA like two way fowards and they need a 3rd liner badly who is a top 6 potential), coburn to replace muzzin (nothing there Coburn 7.0 A and Muzzin 7.0 C in hockeyfuture) and a 11th overall for voynov (risky move for LA, if they do it they want the entry level salary of a pick playing on the 2013 roster cuz of their cap hit)....To make it more plausible for LA add laughton and its pretty fair.

So Read, Coburn, laughton, 11th overall
for
Bernier, Muzzin, voynov


FORWARDS
Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Scott Hartnell ($4.750m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Wayne Simmonds ($3.975m)
Simon Gagne ($2.000m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Tye McGinn ($0.775m)
Jay Rosehill ($0.675m) / Adam Hall ($0.650m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.750m)
Eric Wellwood ($0.700m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.000m) / Slava Voynov ($4.167m)
Jake Muzzin ($2.500m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Mark Streit ($5.250m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Erik Gustafsson ($1.000m) / Bruno Gervais ($0.825m)
GOALTENDERS
Jonathan Bernier ($3.000m)
Steve Mason ($1.500m)
OTHER
Buyout: Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
Buyout: Danny Briere ($0.000m)
Buyout: Ilya Bryzgalov ($0.000m)
Buyout: Chris Pronger ($0.000m)
Having Talbot as our 3C, McGinn playing a regular 3rd line shift, and Rosehill in a permanent 4th line role would make for a pretty awful bottom 6. Talbot is a 4th line player at this point. He was not good last season at all. Also, I think Schenn is better suited at C. I don't want to move him to wing. He needs a stable situation and extended playing time in one position to develop properly. Moving him all around last season was not helpful.

Also, I cannot fathom why people think Voynov is going anywhere. He just signed long term in L.A. Why on earth would anybody think he's going to be available for trade? And Muzzin isn't that good. He's a good #5-6 guy, but he's not better than Streit and should not be on the second pairing at this point in his career.

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06-19-2013, 09:34 AM
  #574
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Voynov was rumored to be working on a deal with the kings for the last few months. He became their number 2 Dman behind doughty and really played very well. Why would the kings downgrade from voynov to coburn? Defenseman like him who are on the up and up aren't easy to come by. I'm very reluctant to think that the kings would have thought about making this trade and I'm sure if it were available(because flyers fans know best how holmgren is known for making big trades) he would have pulled the trigger on it.

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06-19-2013, 09:34 AM
  #575
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
hmmm.... The rivalry would only intensify. Id do it.
I would only offer picks. Wouldn't want to give them any players that could light us up 6+ nights a year...

Imagine couturier shutting down Giroux instead of malkin...i think I'm going to be sick

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