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Old
06-19-2013, 09:39 AM
  #576
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I read in the Inquirer that Courturier and Read's names have been mentioned for Bernier. I think that both will be gone in some overpayment. Holmgren is like a bad bidder on Ebay. He will continue to offer more just to win. Couturier for Bernier is a huge overpayment, therefore, I think this is the most likely deal.

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06-19-2013, 09:41 AM
  #577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I read in the Inquirer that Courturier and Read's names have been mentioned for Bernier. I think that both will be gone in some overpayment. Holmgren is like a bad bidder on Ebay. He will continue to offer more just to win. Couturier for Bernier is a huge overpayment, therefore, I think this is the most likely deal.

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06-19-2013, 09:45 AM
  #578
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Having Talbot as our 3C, McGinn playing a regular 3rd line shift, and Rosehill in a permanent 4th line role would make for a pretty awful bottom 6. Talbot is a 4th line player at this point. He was not good last season at all. Also, I think Schenn is better suited at C. I don't want to move him to wing. He needs a stable situation and extended playing time in one position to develop properly. Moving him all around last season was not helpful.

Also, I cannot fathom why people think Voynov is going anywhere. He just signed long term in L.A. Why on earth would anybody think he's going to be available for trade? And Muzzin isn't that good. He's a good #5-6 guy, but he's not better than Streit and should not be on the second pairing at this point in his career.
Voynov's just not available- he was just signed to a bit of a home town discount and likes LA. Muzzin is friggin' horrible although Sutter likes him so maybe he sees something the rest of the world doesn't. Bernier could very easily end up as good as Tuukka Rask is today; Rask was picked 21st overall in 2005, is 26 years old and was groomed to his current level of success playing in the SM-liiga and backing up Tim Thomas (don't the Leafs wish they had him now). Bernier was picked 11th overall in 2006, is 24 years old and was groomed in the AHL and currently, aptly backing up Quick. The comparison is something to think about. However, you have to give up quality to get quality and a Read (or Couturier) for Bernier straight up may not be out of the question. There's certainly some risk for both sides but a Flyers team with both a young Mason and Bernier might be set for years

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06-19-2013, 09:50 AM
  #579
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Originally Posted by flyersfromquebec View Post
So Read, Coburn, laughton, 11th overall
for
Bernier, Muzzin, voynov
No friggin' way.

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06-19-2013, 10:02 AM
  #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfromquebec View Post

So Read, Coburn, laughton, 11th overall
for
Bernier, Muzzin, voynov
So...

In terms of value of the pieces in this package...

The Flyers give up arguably the 4 most valuable pieces in this package...

Voynov - Coburn - Laughton - 11th - Read are all at one value level.

Bernier - Muzzin are below that value level.

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Old
06-19-2013, 10:02 AM
  #581
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
Voynov's just not available- he was just signed to a bit of a home town discount and likes LA. Muzzin is friggin' horrible although Sutter likes him so maybe he sees something the rest of the world doesn't. Bernier could very easily end up as good as Tuukka Rask is today; Rask was picked 21st overall in 2005, is 26 years old and was groomed to his current level of success playing in the SM-liiga and backing up Tim Thomas (don't the Leafs wish they had him now). Bernier was picked 11th overall in 2006, is 24 years old and was groomed in the AHL and currently, aptly backing up Quick. The comparison is something to think about. However, you have to give up quality to get quality and a Read (or Couturier) for Bernier straight up may not be out of the question. There's certainly some risk for both sides but a Flyers team with both a young Mason and Bernier might be set for years
But Bernier is unproven. Giving up proven commodities for an unproven is unwise, especially in a position of goaltender which is the most stressful to play and which is most dependent on the team play in front of them. Rask would have nowhere near the numbers he has if he played in Philly. Any goaltender who comes to Philly will see their numbers get worse. An unproven goalie put into the Philly pressure cooker is risky. Couturier is not risky. He has played two full seasons, was a higher draft pick than Bernier, is younger than Bernier, has proven he can shut down a player of Malkin's caliber. If you want to look at potential, Couturier is a potential #1 center in the league, at least a #2.

Read is an extremely serviceable player who has proven himself but who has limited upside. He would be a great asset to the Kings, and at his age, and potential and contract, he would be more in line for a trade for an unproven goaltender. I am still against this trade just because I think going into a season with two unproven goaltenders is bad, but at least I think value-wise, it makes more sense.

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06-19-2013, 10:10 AM
  #582
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I agree Bernier should still be considered a prospect and the Flyers shouldn't overpay. Having said this I doubt Bernier would even want to come here since he can't be assured a starting role with Mason still in the picture. I doubt he wants to platoon either. He would be better served going to the Devils or the Flames, Leafs or Wild.

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06-19-2013, 10:12 AM
  #583
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My Kings friend fantasized the idea of Read for Carter.

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06-19-2013, 10:15 AM
  #584
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I read in the Inquirer that Courturier and Read's names have been mentioned for Bernier. I think that both will be gone in some overpayment. Holmgren is like a bad bidder on Ebay. He will continue to offer more just to win. Couturier for Bernier is a huge overpayment, therefore, I think this is the most likely deal.
Not sure what you are basing this history of Holmgren overpaying in trades on.

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06-19-2013, 10:18 AM
  #585
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^ No thanks...don't want the polarizing guy back on this team ..besides Carter is still not over 35..so he won't be recycled back here just yet

As far as all this Bernier talk...seriously what is the Flyers strategy with the goaltending? Do they want a backup, another potential starter to challenge Mason or do they want to platoon? I hope they have a strategy and acquire the right goaltender to fit that strategy. Obviously, with Bryz they did not do that and this is why they find themselves in this clutserphuk situation of still trying to identify their starting goaltender even though they had a very good one in Bob!

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06-19-2013, 10:22 AM
  #586
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Originally Posted by nuclear reactor View Post
Not sure what you are basing this history of Holmgren overpaying in trades on.
Really? You must be new to Flyers fandom.....Holmgren has always thrown in draft picks unecessarily when acquiring players. Lots of instances not worth rehashing right now. Somebody else can do that....

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06-19-2013, 10:23 AM
  #587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
So...

In terms of value of the pieces in this package...

The Flyers give up arguably the 4 most valuable pieces in this package...

Voynov - Coburn - Laughton - 11th - Read are all at one value level.

Bernier - Muzzin are below that value level.
I think Voynov is probably a value tier above the rest just because of his age, position, and where he is on the development curve (assuming we arent' including the contract he just signed which makes him even more valuable).

Still, I wouldn't give up Coburn, Laughton, or the 11th for Bernier and the only reason I'd do Read is because we probably won't be able to sign him after next year anyway. Overall way too much from the Flyers.

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06-19-2013, 10:34 AM
  #588
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Originally Posted by nuclear reactor View Post
Not sure what you are basing this history of Holmgren overpaying in trades on.
Maybe you're right. I don't know if I should say trades or just signings in general. His attempts to sign players (and his successes in signing players) are often overpayments seemingly to keep others from signing them. Briere was signed when the market had three UFA centers; Gomez, Drury, and Briere. He overpaid to get one of these centers. He overpaid to get Bryzgalov to make sure he got the supposed best goalie on the market. He overpaid to get Emminger for no real reason. He overpaid for Walker, overpaid for Shelley. Holmgren stirkes me as someone who will get what he wants even if it means overpayment. When other teams are involved (or even when not) he seems to up the ante, at least with contracts. If the Devils and Islanders are involved in trying to get Bernier, I think the Kings can just jack the price up and Holmgren will bite. Maybe I'm too harsh. I just think his lack of patience often makes him undervalue his assets. The trade of Versteeg comes to mind.

Although, I do think he got great value for Richards and Carter.

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06-19-2013, 10:34 AM
  #589
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YES YES and YES...

Patience is not a virtue for the Flyers..they need to start being more patient.

This is from Bill's blog today..another well written piece overall


Quote:
Personally, I think the Flyers should be leery about getting involved in any bidding wars for Bernier's right. I do think the rumored discussions tied to Matt Read, who can be an unrestricted free agent next summer, make some sense (and I say that as someone who has become a big believer in Read's two-way game and current value to the Flyers as a low-priced and very versatile player). But I absolutely would walk away from a game of escalating trade bids for the 24-year-old goalie who has thus far been Jonathan Quick's backup.

I don't see a need to hyperfocus on Bernier. A mid-tier veteran such as Jaroslav Halak may be available in trade at a reasonable cost. Anaheim has Viktor Fasth and former NHL All-Star Game selection Jonas Hiller at the NHL level, so they have no need to rush John Gibson. The Ducks may not want to deal Gibson, but perhaps Hiller (an unrestricted agent next summer with a current $4.5 million cap hit) could be available. Meanwhile, the unrestricted free agent goalie market this summer could very quickly turn into a good buyer's market for teams that are patient.

How about the Flyers, for once, deciding to be a team that shows some patience in the market? They don't HAVE to rush in and trade for Bernier at an excessive cost. Keep lots of options open, because there's a lot of potentially viable alternatives out there.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...llier/45/52189

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06-19-2013, 10:36 AM
  #590
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
Maybe you're right. I don't know if I should say trades or just signings in general. His attempts to sign players (and his successes in signing players) are often overpayments seemingly to keep others from signing them. Briere was signed when the market had three UFA centers; Gomez, Drury, and Briere. He overpaid to get one of these centers. He overpaid to get Bryzgalov to make sure he got the supposed best goalie on the market. He overpaid to get Emminger for no real reason. He overpaid for Walker, overpaid for Shelley. Holmgren stirkes me as someone who will get what he wants even if it means overpayment. When other teams are involved (or even when not) he seems to up the ante, at least with contracts. If the Devils and Islanders are involved in trying to get Bernier, I think the Kings can just jack the price up and Holmgren will bite. Maybe I'm too harsh. I just think his lack of patience often makes him undervalue his assets. The trade of Versteeg comes to mind.

Although, I do think he got great value for Richards and Carter.
It goes back to being impatient like Bill Meltzer notes in the post above...

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06-19-2013, 10:42 AM
  #591
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Not sure how you walk away from that one. If that's true then they truly don't give a flying **** about defense.

edit: the other defenseman was supposedly Forbert.
I have a hard time believing LA has any intention of dealing Voynov. He seems to be a pretty untouchable piece to me. Kind of like the Flyers not wanting to part with Couturier.
Holmgren asked about him in the Richards trade and Lombardi said no. Really wish they could of gotten him in that deal. Kid is a stud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
It goes back to being impatient like Bill Meltzer notes in the post above...
there is that word again impatient. that will rile up the Holmgren supporters.

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06-19-2013, 10:43 AM
  #592
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
YES YES and YES...

Patience is not a virtue for the Flyers..they need to start being more patient.

This is from Bill's blog today..another well written piece overall
Basically there are other routes to pursue Bernier.

And we already have Mason so we're not without goalie.

And there are other guys who could be available after buyouts.

And there are other UFA options.

And there is even the option of just swallowing Bryz's contract one year until next season opens.

The Flyers have all the leverage when it comes to Bernier, so whatever. Not that concerned, and I hope Holmgren listens to Meltzer.

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06-19-2013, 10:45 AM
  #593
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Flyers should wait until after the draft on Bernier, when the kings are likely to be in a position of weakness in negotiating leverage. He'd be prone to an offer sheet and idk that they'd be willing to pay 3.5+ for a backup goaltender, eating up about half of their remaining capspace.

On the Ryan front; as much as I love bobby Ryan, I'm not willing to put a package together than includes the 11th overall pick. This team is so young, and in a such a deep draft, were likely to get a good prospect that could help this team compete in the future, especially if we're able to get a bluechip defense prospect. I'd honestly rather wait until he hits ufa to get Ryan, unless you can swing a deal for him that doesn't include our 1st, which is unlikely unless couturier is going the other way, which would probably be a good trade, but I couldn't justify trading couts for anything other than a potential too pairing young defenseman... But just for the sake of fun...

Ryan-Giroux-Voracek
Hartnell-Schenn-Simmonds
Gagne-Laughton-McGinn
Rinaldo-Talbot-Rosehill

Timonen-Coburn
Streit-Schenn
Gustafsson-Grossmann
Gervais

Bernier
Mason

Interesting.

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06-19-2013, 11:00 AM
  #594
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Ryan would be great to have but as the roster looks right now the only player I would be ok with losing in a deal for him would be read. We really can't lose anyone from the defense unless there is another deal that happens. So I would offer read + 2014 first+ picks/prospect(s). If they don't want that then keep read for the year. If we got him I would try to spread out the scoring on the lines

Schenn-Giroux-Ryan
Hartnell-couturier-Voracek
XXX-Laughton-Simmonds
Talbot-Hall-Rinaldo
Rosehill

Timonen-Schenn
Streit-Coburn
Gus-Grossmann
Gervais

Mason
Emery/Thomas/UFA

Getting Ryan would be good for our young guys like schenn and Couts because there would be a little less pressure to produce offensively

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06-19-2013, 11:05 AM
  #595
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
Ryan would be great to have but as the roster looks right now the only player I would be ok with losing in a deal for him would be read. We really can't lose anyone from the defense unless there is another deal that happens. So I would offer read + 2014 first+ picks/prospect(s). If they don't want that then keep read for the year. If we got him I would try to spread out the scoring on the lines

Schenn-Giroux-Ryan
Hartnell-couturier-Voracek
XXX-Laughton-Simmonds
Talbot-Hall-Rinaldo
Rosehill

Timonen-Schenn
Streit-Coburn
Gus-Grossmann
Gervais

Mason
Emery/Thomas/UFA

Getting Ryan would be good for our young guys like schenn and Couts because there would be a little less pressure to produce offensively
Like Meltzer noted..getting Ryan would be essentially like getting JVR back which would help but at what cost? Also, if fans didn't like JVR's streakiness they won't like Ryan like Bill also pointed out....

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06-19-2013, 11:09 AM
  #596
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
So...

In terms of value of the pieces in this package...

The Flyers give up arguably the 4 most valuable pieces in this package...

Voynov - Coburn - Laughton - 11th - Read are all at one value level.

Bernier - Muzzin are below that value level.
I think read coburn and 11th is not enought for LA voynov bernier and any 4-5 young D...and Im a flyers fan...It would be interesting to do a poll with LA fan to see if its something plausible!!! And by the story Homer want even more in return...I just dont see that happen!!

For voynov..maybe it was a verbal condition to have voynov sign for long time before the trade...I can see Homer doing that!!

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06-19-2013, 11:10 AM
  #597
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Ryan has a way better scoring prowess than JVR though. Also, Ryan I find is more physical than JVR as well. Plus, the moves and hands that Ryan have are better than JVR's as well.

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06-19-2013, 11:10 AM
  #598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Like Meltzer noted..getting Ryan would be essentially like getting JVR back which would help but at what cost? Also, if fans didn't like JVR's streakiness they won't like Ryan like Bill also pointed out....
I really didn't have a problem with JVR. I would have rather had Kane of course but that is a different story. The only goal scoters who aren't very streaky are the try elite ones. Plus he was still young at what 23 years old. I would live to have him back actually. Most people probably won't agree with that. I do love have luke but we overpaid a bit, but that is what happens when you have a glaring need and no other way to fill it

JVR was also very good at getting the puck into the offensive Zone from center ice with possession


Last edited by FLYERSFAN18: 06-19-2013 at 11:15 AM.
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06-19-2013, 11:13 AM
  #599
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Ryan has a way better scoring prowess than JVR though. Also, Ryan I find is more physical than JVR as well. Plus, the moves and hands that Ryan have are better than JVR's as well.
I think Ryan has more mental fortitude than JVR..so I agree he has some more appealing intangibles although JVR when healthy and motivated is very good and fit Lavi's system. However, the streakiness does wear on you....JVR and Carter took a lot of heat for it and some of it was warranted particularly in big games.

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06-19-2013, 11:20 AM
  #600
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But Bernier is unproven. Giving up proven commodities for an unproven is unwise, especially in a position of goaltender which is the most stressful to play and which is most dependent on the team play in front of them. Rask would have nowhere near the numbers he has if he played in Philly. Any goaltender who comes to Philly will see their numbers get worse. An unproven goalie put into the Philly pressure cooker is risky. Couturier is not risky. He has played two full seasons, was a higher draft pick than Bernier, is younger than Bernier, has proven he can shut down a player of Malkin's caliber. If you want to look at potential, Couturier is a potential #1 center in the league, at least a #2.

Read is an extremely serviceable player who has proven himself but who has limited upside. He would be a great asset to the Kings, and at his age, and potential and contract, he would be more in line for a trade for an unproven goaltender. I am still against this trade just because I think going into a season with two unproven goaltenders is bad, but at least I think value-wise, it makes more sense.
I personally don't consider Bernier unproven nor, to some extent Mason. Two young goaltenders of this caliber platooned in play until one comes to the forefront gives you quality plus an asset. I can't believe both would have a bad 2013-14 season together.

Couturier is not nor will he ever be a no 1 center, possibly a number 2 at his best- look around at the better teams and their number 1s' and he'll never get to that stage. He might end up being a slightly bigger Mike Richards but I don't think he has the same heart as Richards. However, given his first year play, not so much the points but what he seems to bring to the ice, I can understand the hesitancy of everyone to trade him but, with the Flyers, who knows what's possible.

Matt Read is likely more unproven than Bernier. He's smaller than Mike Richards, didn't come up thru the major junior ranks but, point wise, did have a decent first full season and shortened second season with the Flyers. The issue for the Kings is where to play him. However, Read (or maybe Couturier) for Bernier may be an excellent trade for both teams so don't be surprised.......

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