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2013 NHL Entry Draft Talk 12.0

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Old
06-19-2013, 11:32 AM
  #51
onice
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Why would Jones not be an elite d-man? His tools are as good as any d-man in the draft in recent memory, plus he has good bloodlines in that his father played in the NBA, so the pro lifestyle won't be a big shock to him. He is like a 6'4" and more polished version of Subban at 18.
Except for the bloodline comment, I heard the same stuff about Eric & Jack Johnson, Boumeister, Jovanowski and a dozen other d-men. They all turned out excellent d-men but not one was elite. And my gut feeling is Jones will fall into that group. MacKinnon will be elite and so will Drouin. These two - especially MacKinnon - are difference makers. i don't see Jones that way.

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06-19-2013, 11:32 AM
  #52
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Yes, let's trade one of our top prospects to pick a maybe in the 1st round.

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06-19-2013, 11:34 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by SlimDiggity View Post
My question would be, who is there at 22 that we REALLY want who wouldn't be there at 25? Two is always better than one, but to give up a guy who is close to NHL ready for a pick that will be 4 - 5 years away means that player must be extremely coveted by management. I can't say I can readily identify that player.
Tough to determine. We moved up to get Tinordi in his draft year based that we could not miss on a towering stay-at-home d-man that we didn't have in our pool. Yet, I could say that every player targeted to be around 20-30, would be something we would need as well. From scoring wingers, to high-energy forwards, to potential top 4 d-man (even if we have a good depth....).

Scary part is that if it is EXACTLY like the Tinordi case and we mostly move up because of needs.....the key targeted player could be.....Fucale. And I so don't want that. Fucale is a ND for me.....for now. If he pans out and it makes Price tradeable in 3 years because of how incredibly great Fucale has developed, well so be it. But as far as draft day is concerned, Fucale should NOT be a target. And I can't imagine if we move up to get him...that would be a double mistake.

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06-19-2013, 11:36 AM
  #54
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This is ridiculous.
C'mon, give him a break. He has to exaggerate to tear down MacKinnon so his boy, Jones, can finish 1st.

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06-19-2013, 11:37 AM
  #55
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Yes, let's trade one of our top prospects to pick a maybe in the 1st round.
We already have 1 first rounder and 2 seconds that, by all accounts, might as well be first rounders...do we really need another one? At the expense of a known commodity and a pretty good prospect in his own right? I don't get it.

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06-19-2013, 11:37 AM
  #56
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Pure speculation here, but if Calgary did keep #22 and take Fucale, I wonder if Feaster would bite on an offer by MB of Kristo + Habs 86th for Calgary's 28th and 67th? Hmmm...opens up some interesting possibilities for Timmins with those 2 picks.

Edit: That would give Timmins #25, #28, #34, #36, #55, #67 and #71 in an exceptionally deep draft. Timmins should be able to really clean up with those picks.
That's speculating on my random speculation, but sure that could very well be the type of deal that is being considered by both sides. I just thought that would be around where Furcale should be taken and a young goalie is a need for them.

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06-19-2013, 11:38 AM
  #57
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Yes, let's trade one of our top prospects to pick a maybe in the 1st round.
Not necessarily saying MB SHOULD or WILL trade Kristo, just speculating on what he might get at the draft if for whatever reason (like the emergence of Gallagher) MB doesn't see Kristo as part of his vision of the Habs in the future. Highly unlikely, but interesting to ponder.

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06-19-2013, 11:39 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Except for the bloodline comment, (...).
When it comes to the relatives of professionals, there are as many failed offspring as there are individuals who transition seamlesslessly to the pros or who are successful NHLers.


Last edited by Runner77: 06-19-2013 at 12:06 PM.
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06-19-2013, 11:40 AM
  #59
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We already have 1 first rounder and 2 seconds that, by all accounts, might as well be first rounders...do we really need another one? At the expense of a known commodity and a pretty good prospect in his own right? I don't get it.
Well...I'd take 2 or 3 more for sure.... But as you already know....for Kristo? For the sole purpose of moving 3 spots? Makes no sense. I mean, if Bergevin somehow in a package move Kristo and ++ for a top 5 pick...fine. But since it won't happen, Kristo isn't going anywhere.

But you know how it works....he didn't steal the show in the AHL at the end of season, hence he's a flop. Some people work that way.

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06-19-2013, 11:41 AM
  #60
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Not necessarily saying MB SHOULD or WILL trade Kristo, just speculating on what he might get at the draft if for whatever reason (like the emergence of Gallagher) MB doesn't see Kristo as part of his vision of the Habs in the future. Highly unlikely, but interesting to ponder.
Even w ith the emergence of Gally we are very thin on the right and that's with Kristo in the organization. Imagine how much worse we would be if we traded The Crisco Kid.

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06-19-2013, 11:45 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Except for the bloodline comment, I heard the same stuff about Eric & Jack Johnson, Boumeister, Jovanowski and a dozen other d-men. They all turned out excellent d-men but not one was elite. And my gut feeling is Jones will fall into that group. MacKinnon will be elite and so will Drouin. These two - especially MacKinnon - are difference makers. i don't see Jones that way.
Scouts that have been in the game 20+ years have said Jones is the best defense prospect they have seen, ahead of Johnson Doughty Pronger etc His offensive upside is higher than the guys you named.

MacKinnon is a difference maker in junior, not sure he'll be any more than a 65-70 point guy in the NHL. He'll score 30-35 and add 25-30 assists. A very good player but not a franchise guy.

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06-19-2013, 11:48 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SlimDiggity View Post
My question would be, who is there at 22 that we REALLY want who wouldn't be there at 25? Two is always better than one, but to give up a guy who is close to NHL ready for a pick that will be 4 - 5 years away means that player must be extremely coveted by management. I can't say I can readily identify that player.
It seems to me that with Ryder gone, Gionta 1 year away from free agency and Bourque a perennial question mark, the Habs need real, short term prospects at the forward positions right now. Frankly, the Bulldogs are not exactly brimming with near NHL calibre players, particularly of the top-6 variety. By merely signing, Kristo is probably already ahead of the paltry pack.

Why would we trade this guy now unless:

1) The Canadiens somehow acquire the Flames 6th overall in the deal. (Eg Canadiens 1st (25th), Kristo and something else). In this way the Habs suddenly become a players in acquiring top-end talent such as Nicushkin, or Barkov. The addition asset will have to be substantial--don't think a second-rounder is going to do the trick.

2) The Habs really want the 22nd overall because a particular player is still available who they fear will not last until 25. This is the kind of situation that arises every year during the draft, not 2 weeks beforehand.

2) The Habs have an eye on one of the Flames current assets, although who this is beats me.

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06-19-2013, 11:49 AM
  #63
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When it comes to the offspring of professionals, there are as many failed relatives as there are individuals who transition seamlesslessly to the pros or who are successful NHLers.
Having good bloodlines doesn't guarantee success, it just makes it easier if the kid is super talented as he grew up in the pro sports environment. It would be a big asset for Jones if he is drafted by Colorado as there would be added pressure of playing "at home" so to speak.

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06-19-2013, 11:49 AM
  #64
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Nichushkin is the complete package. Size, speed, skill and power.
He's an impressive physical package, but there's still not a ton of evidence he's an elite offensive talent or a superb thinker of the game, 1 of the 2 traits generally needed if you are going to be a star forward in the NHL. He didn't dominate the MHL or the VHL or the WJC or even the U-18 this year (compared to what top 5 picks usually do in it). His KHL numbers were apparently aided by a very high shooting %.

NHL defencemen and smart NHL coaches will be able to counter what he does on the big ice surface in Europe unless he diversifies his game.

Throw in that he's already telling teams he'll never play in the AHL and will run back to the KHL if he's deemed not good enough for the NHL, the talk about his poor combine and the fact his agent is Mark Gandler, there are red flags all over the place. I could see the argument for him going top 1 or 2 in other drafts, but not this one with all the talent available.

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06-19-2013, 11:54 AM
  #65
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Even w ith the emergence of Gally we are very thin on the right and that's with Kristo in the organization. Imagine how much worse we would be if we traded The Crisco Kid.
True enough, but there is always the possibility of using free agency to fill that gap. As many have commented on here, MB has made it clear that his vision of the team involves having the right "mix" of players. I've been of that view all along so it's nice to see a Habs GM come out and acknowledge that. Changing the "mix" and culture of the team seems to me to inherently involve changing the "mix" and culture of the prospect pool, which might be MB's ultimate goal, which MIGHT cause him to consider such a trade. Anyway, as Frozenice posted above, I was just "speculating on his random speculation."

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06-19-2013, 11:56 AM
  #66
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I would disagree. Malkin and Crosby do have great vision, but even they (especially Malkin) are prone to tunnel vision when the going gets tough. I watch more than half of Pittsburgh's games every year on top of almost every playoff game, I've seen this happen enough to say it with conviction, forcing plays that aren't there and generally trying to do it themselves to ultimately little avail.

And I also disagree with MacKinnon's vision, I think it's very good if not at Drouin's level. He can see the ice very well and has terrific IQ to go with it; only problem is that Drouin makes pretty much everyone look pedestrian in the vision department.

Edit: On a side note, I noticed you hammering MacKinnon for the WJC in the last thread, claiming he pouted (even if there was no indication of such) and underperforming in what was essentially a bad situation for him. Care to explain?
It was pretty obvious by his play, he took two selfish penalities and played a very individual game refusing to pass the puck. I heard from scouts that were there that he had numerous "talks" with the coaching staff as they were not happy with his attitude.

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06-19-2013, 12:01 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Scouts that have been in the game 20+ years have said Jones is the best defense prospect they have seen, ahead of Johnson Doughty Pronger etc His offensive upside is higher than the guys you named.
And in a few years you'll hear the exact same thing about Aaron Ekblad and Sean Day. It's not worth the paper it's written on, IMO.

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06-19-2013, 12:08 PM
  #68
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And in a few years you'll hear the exact same thing about Aaron Ekblad and Sean Day. It's not worth the paper it's written on, IMO.
Quite honestly, I have never really seen the relevance of the "bloodlines" argument although it does seem to have some prevalence in professionally scouting circles, although I don't know why. There have of course been cases of "hockey families" such as the Staals but as far as I know, it had nothing to do with the bloodlines of the family.

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06-19-2013, 12:09 PM
  #69
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Having good bloodlines doesn't guarantee success, it just makes it easier if the kid is super talented as he grew up in the pro sports environment. It would be a big asset for Jones if he is drafted by Colorado as there would be added pressure of playing "at home" so to speak.
Sure, but then it has nothing to do with being a "blood" relative. If someone is adopted and grows up in the environment of an ex-pro player, it may help him deal with certain things better than someone who doesn't. However, far too often the term is being used to infer some kind of genetic advantage having been transferred, which is a ludicrous proposition.

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06-19-2013, 12:14 PM
  #70
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Sure, but then it has nothing to do with being a "blood" relative. If someone is adopted and grows up in the environment of an ex-pro player, it may help him deal with certain things better than someone who doesn't. However, far too often the term is being used to infer some kind of genetic advantage having been transferred, which is a ludicrous proposition.
Both he and his dad are excellent athletes, but you don't need to know who his father is you just have to watch him play.

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06-19-2013, 12:23 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by FisherKing View Post
Quite honestly, I have never really seen the relevance of the "bloodlines" argument although it does seem to have some prevalence in professionally scouting circles, although I don't know why. There have of course been cases of "hockey families" such as the Staals but as far as I know, it had nothing to do with the bloodlines of the family.
If your dad is a great athlete well you have genetics on your side. Same as if he is 6'4" and you are 5'10" at 15, odds are you will be 6'1" to 6'5" yourself.

Hvaing a father that played pro sports is not just about genetics, it's about understanding all that happens off the ice/field/court and makes it easier to handle...fame, pressure, media.

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Sure, but then it has nothing to do with being a "blood" relative. If someone is adopted and grows up in the environment of an ex-pro player, it may help him deal with certain things better than someone who doesn't. However, far too often the term is being used to infer some kind of genetic advantage having been transferred, which is a ludicrous proposition.
Usually if you father is a great athlete, then you have a good chance of having very good athletic ability. It's not a coincidence that there are so many kids of former pros drafted in MLB for example. If you are lazy or don't like sports then it will go to waste, and like anything there are exceptions, but your odds are better of making the NHL if your dad was a an NHL all-star than Joe Q Public.

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And in a few years you'll hear the exact same thing about Aaron Ekblad and Sean Day. It's not worth the paper it's written on, IMO.
It's not written on paper, it's directly from scouts I know that have been in the business 20+ years. Not the same as a reporter writing something outrageous to get hits/readers.

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06-19-2013, 12:26 PM
  #72
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Throw in that he's already telling teams he'll never play in the AHL and will run back to the KHL if he's deemed not good enough for the NHL, the talk about his poor combine and the fact his agent is Mark Gandler, there are red flags all over the place. I could see the argument for him going top 1 or 2 in other drafts, but not this one with all the talent available.
Gandler. Good point. Headache right there.

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06-19-2013, 12:28 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by FisherKing View Post
Quite honestly, I have never really seen the relevance of the "bloodlines" argument although it does seem to have some prevalence in professionally scouting circles, although I don't know why. There have of course been cases of "hockey families" such as the Staals but as far as I know, it had nothing to do with the bloodlines of the family.
I'm not sure if you meant to reply to my comment or not (since I was talking about something else entirely), but as someone who does put value into bloodlines, I'll take up the argument.

If I understand the profession correctly, what you're looking for when you're scouting is information. Patterns. Things that would suggest that your guy will make it to the NHL when hundreds of his peers won't. Or more precisely, what will make him a better NHLer than any of his peers. Sometimes it's obvious (raw talent) and sometimes it's not. When a prospect has somebody in his family (brother, father, uncle), there is reason to believe that both genetically and mentally, he'll be better equipped to succeed in the league than someone who doesn't have "bloodlines". It's not unreasonable to believe that the player will mature physically in a pattern similar to the way his father or brother did before him - it's not an exact science, but it's something, an asset.

It also goes for the mental side of the game too - if the son is raised in the father's image, as most are, it stands to reason he'll develop a lot of the traits his father possessed and the ones that were an asset to him when he was an NHLer. Mental strength, perseverance, bravery, fortitude, hockey IQ, determination, etc. But it also helps to have someone close to the prospect who has already been through everything the prospect is about to endure - in any event, it can't possibly hurt.

But before anyone starts rattling off the names of players who had NHL bloodlines and didn't make it - that's not the point. There are no guarantees in scouting. In the same way the guy who scored the most goals in junior might not do it in the NHL, the kid with the ex-NHL father might not do anything in the NHL himself. All it is, is an asset, a plus in the kid's "pros" column. Something to consider when you're trying to compile a reasonable estimate of what this kid's future will look like in 10-15 years.

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06-19-2013, 12:30 PM
  #74
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Do you guys really think Kristo might fetch us a 1st rounder ? Seems high, no ?
Kristo is almost ready and has the tools to be a top 6 threat...with a bit of seasoning added (like our #86 pick), he could net #28 from Calgary.

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06-19-2013, 12:31 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
It's not written on paper, it's directly from scouts I know that have been in the business 20+ years. Not the same as a reporter writing something outrageous to get hits/readers.
I was speaking metaphorically. Talk to the same scouts in a few years and you'll hear the same breathless adulations for the next big thing. Because we heard em all in Adam Larsson's draft year (and the years leading up to it) as well.

In any case, it appears that there are an awful lot of people who don't share the opinion of your scouts. If Jones was as generational as you're promoting him to be, we wouldn't even be having this debate right now.

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