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Trading Up Part II: The Midnight Barkov

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Old
06-19-2013, 10:44 PM
  #776
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Originally Posted by sabresfan97 View Post
Not a sure thing, but potentially greater, and Mackinnon isn't a sure thing at this point either.
Yes he is, not a chance, outside of a significant injury, that Nathan Mackinnon wouldn't be the best player on the Sabres within 2 years. And I bet every personnel guy in the NHL would say the same thing.

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06-19-2013, 10:50 PM
  #777
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Originally Posted by FanboySlayer View Post
Yes he is, not a chance, outside of a significant injury, that Nathan Mackinnon wouldn't be the best player on the Sabres within 2 years. And I bet every personnel guy in the NHL would say the same thing.
Of course there's a chance of that. What there isn't a chance of is, barring injury, he isn't a very good NHL player.

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06-19-2013, 10:52 PM
  #778
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Originally Posted by FanboySlayer View Post
Yes he is, not a chance, outside of a significant injury, that Nathan Mackinnon wouldn't be the best player on the Sabres within 2 years. And I bet every personnel guy in the NHL would say the same thing.
Just because people are projecting big things doesn't mean that they will come to fruition. There have been 1st overall picks in every major sport that haven't panned out. I'm not saying Mackinnon won't be good, if not great, because I do think that he will be. I'm just saying there is a chance that any prospect in this draft does not live up to their potential. He hasn't proven anything in the NHL yet.


Last edited by Risto55: 06-19-2013 at 10:54 PM. Reason: *By not living up to his potential, I mean not becoming a mean not being a franchise center, he will be a solid NHL center.
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06-19-2013, 11:34 PM
  #779
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I think as a 'can't miss' prospect Mackinnon is just a notch down from former can't miss prospects like Lindros,Crosby and Ovechkin and a notch above the majority of number 1 rated prospects the past 20 years.

This franchise is absolutely rudderless right now, it's not just the fans who need the hope a potential saviour/franchise player brings. the players themselves look at each other and see the same things we do and it affects them.

Think ahead to January, the Sabres are playing on the NBC game of the week or in Toronto playing the Leafs - the promo for that game will be 'Nathan Mackinnon and the Buffalo Sabres ............ blah blah blah'. The Sabres desperately need that kind of change in identity.

I'd trade half this team to get Mackinnon, there are barely any players in the top half of this team that I can ever envision being core players on a Stanley Cup final team. Who here can say differently?

Girgensons and Larsson are prospects that look like the type of players that one day might be warriors in June. I can't give up on Myers yet. One of Hodgson or Ennis needs to go. Gerbe, sorry li'l fella, sometimes size does matter in places other than on the set of a porn movie.

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06-20-2013, 12:01 AM
  #780
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Originally Posted by FanboySlayer View Post
I think as a 'can't miss' prospect Mackinnon is just a notch down from former can't miss prospects like Lindros,Crosby and Ovechkin and a notch above the majority of number 1 rated prospects the past 20 years.

This franchise is absolutely rudderless right now, it's not just the fans who need the hope a potential saviour/franchise player brings. the players themselves look at each other and see the same things we do and it affects them.

Think ahead to January, the Sabres are playing on the NBC game of the week or in Toronto playing the Leafs - the promo for that game will be 'Nathan Mackinnon and the Buffalo Sabres ............ blah blah blah'. The Sabres desperately need that kind of change in identity.

I'd trade half this team to get Mackinnon, there are barely any players in the top half of this team that I can ever envision being core players on a Stanley Cup final team. Who here can say differently?

Girgensons and Larsson are prospects that look like the type of players that one day might be warriors in June. I can't give up on Myers yet. One of Hodgson or Ennis needs to go. Gerbe, sorry li'l fella, sometimes size does matter in places other than on the set of a porn movie.
One of Hodgson, Ennis, or Grigorenko can easily go if we're getting MacKinnon in return. The problem is what else needs to go in order to make that happen. You still need to be able to put some players around MacKinnon on his line and others just to keep his head above water, nevermind needing to build a Cup core around him. Gerbe's value is probably something like a 4th round pick if we're lucky, so he's rather irrelevant.

Like you said, you'd trade half the team to get him. So would I, if that half were the actual crap we can easily stand to be rid of, but that's not what would get it done. They're not going to want a quantity of crap. They're going to probably want someone who can be a top line player and someone who can be a top pairing defender. Then we'd have to add to make it worth their trouble.

The only comparable trade I can think of is the Lindros one in which Philly gave up a Hall of Famer and some great assets (including "future considerations" that wound up down the line being Chris Simon AND another 1st rounder). Now, no one knew Forsberg would be a Hall of Famer but he was just selected 6th overall. Though most had him rated later in the 1st, if the league-wide state of international scouting and drafting then were what it is today he'd have been rated much higher. The Flyers regarded him very highly, obviously, and it hurt them like hell to have to include him in the deal.

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06-20-2013, 06:06 AM
  #781
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Take the 8th, 16th, 38th and 52nd pick from the 2000-2009 drafts, and imagine you traded them for the top forward taken in that draft. The vast majority of the time, you're getting a steal. Terrible asset management my ass.
this is all well and good but if you know that and I know that, don't you think Colorado or Florida knows that? Besides. they aren't trading the #1 or 2 picks for just the 4 draft picks we currently own.

If "reports" are to be believed, the Sabres could get to the first pick if they somehow acquired another top 10 pick. Then swap the three #1's and a player like Grigs for the top pick.

The bigger question would be how can we acquire the # 4-7 pick in the draft without trading the 8th and 16th and gutting the roster?

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06-20-2013, 06:18 AM
  #782
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this is all well and good but if you know that and I know that, don't you think Colorado or Florida knows that? Besides. they aren't trading the #1 or 2 picks for just the 4 draft picks we currently own.

If "reports" are to be believed, the Sabres could get to the first pick if they somehow acquired another top 10 pick. Then swap the three #1's and a player like Grigs for the top pick.

The bigger question would be how can we acquire the # 4-7 pick in the draft without trading the 8th and 16th and gutting the roster?
Colorado reportedly already turned down an offer from Calgary of their 3 first rounders. That sort of deal isn't going to get it done nor should it. If you're going to give up a sure-fire prospect like MacKinnon you don't want a bunch of unknown possibilities. You need something tangible, good fit veterans, young stars, and/or high-end prospects.

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06-20-2013, 06:42 AM
  #783
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
Colorado reportedly already turned down an offer from Calgary of their 3 first rounders. That sort of deal isn't going to get it done nor should it. If you're going to give up a sure-fire prospect like MacKinnon you don't want a bunch of unknown possibilities. You need something tangible, good fit veterans, young stars, and/or high-end prospects.
You don't think 4,8,16, and Grigorenko gets it done? Please..

I don't think it's likely at all that we could get 4 without giving one of our current picks, but I'm just going off of what the post you quoted detailed.

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06-20-2013, 06:44 AM
  #784
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Today is intriguing. Could be selective thinking, but all the GM's met last night, and now Darcy wants a press conference?? Perhaps good things are incoming.

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06-20-2013, 06:52 AM
  #785
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Originally Posted by DYaeger89 View Post
Today is intriguing. Could be selective thinking, but all the GM's met last night, and now Darcy wants a press conference?? Perhaps good things are incoming.
Yep. We are in for a busy draft and summer.

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06-20-2013, 07:02 AM
  #786
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Originally Posted by Deevo View Post
You don't think 4,8,16, and Grigorenko gets it done? Please..

I don't think it's likely at all that we could get 4 without giving one of our current picks, but I'm just going off of what the post you quoted detailed.
"That sort of deal isn't going to get it done" == the deal he was responding to and first talking about: our 4 picks. Colorado isn't going to trade out of 1st overall for a bag of picks unless one of them is in the top 4. The problem is I forgot to bold the particular part of his comment I was referring to.

Edit: Also for the record, I wouldn't do the deal you mention. If we manage to get to #4 I'd just as soon keep Barkov (or Drouin or Jones) + the great prospect we'd get at #8 (Ristolainen or perhaps even Lindholm/Monahan/Nichushkin) + an intriguing prospect at 16 + Grigorenko. I'd call that a hell of a great 1st round for the rebuild. If only...


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06-20-2013, 07:04 AM
  #787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DYaeger89 View Post
Today is intriguing. Could be selective thinking, but all the GM's met last night, and now Darcy wants a press conference?? Perhaps good things are incoming.
I wish I had your optimism but I believe these things are pretty common for organizations to do before the draft. If they had a major trade to announce they'd probably wait a few days until the Finals were over with, though I think that tradition's a bit of nonsense.

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06-20-2013, 07:22 AM
  #788
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
"That sort of deal isn't going to get it done" == the deal he was responding to and first talking about: our 4 picks. Colorado isn't going to trade out of 1st overall for a bag of picks unless one of them is in the top 4. The problem is I forgot to bold the particular part of his comment I was referring to.

Edit: Also for the record, I wouldn't do the deal you mention. If we manage to get to #4 I'd just as soon keep Barkov (or Drouin or Jones) + the great prospect we'd get at #8 (Ristolainen or perhaps even Lindholm/Monahan/Nichushkin) + an intriguing prospect at 16 + Grigorenko. I'd call that a hell of a great 1st round for the rebuild. If only...
I definitely wouldn't give up 8,16, and Grigorenko to move up from 4 to 1. Unfortunately, I can't see the Preds trading out of #4...

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06-20-2013, 07:31 AM
  #789
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Today is intriguing. Could be selective thinking, but all the GM's met last night, and now Darcy wants a press conference?? Perhaps good things are incoming.
Just the opposite for me. I'll be surprised if there's even a morsel of useful information that comes out if that presser. And that's fine, I don't want them tipping their hand in any way.

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06-20-2013, 08:01 AM
  #790
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Just the opposite for me. I'll be surprised if there's even a morsel of useful information that comes out if that presser. And that's fine, I don't want them tipping their hand in any way.
The last few conversations with Buffalo management and timing of the meeting would leave me surprised at zero information. Why call a presser at all then, unless you have something to say? The only negative thing that could happen, in my opinion, is if they realize that the City of Buffalo is in trade-up-mania, which arguably was started and fueled by them, and attempt to defuse expectations by claiming that "playing it safe" is the best move (which I disagree with).

Here's what I want the opening line to be: "Good Morning. We're here today to announce the completion of a trade for the rights to the 1st overall pick in this year's draft". (However we got there)

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06-20-2013, 08:03 AM
  #791
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Just the opposite for me. I'll be surprised if there's even a morsel of useful information that comes out if that presser. And that's fine, I don't want them tipping their hand in any way.
Maybe its the bad mood I woke up with, but I think Darcy will pretty much shut the door on any HOPE of moving up in the draft.

I wish I'm wrong but why tip your hand and make it public to the other GM's to let them know you're moving up. You don't need to say what you might move, but that might give a GM the push they need to try and pry their way into the move.

If anybody SHOULD be making any sort of DRAFT day announcement it should be Colorado. This will drive up the cost, and bring them better assets.

Or It will be just the typical presser before a draft...

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06-20-2013, 08:08 AM
  #792
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Originally Posted by DYaeger89 View Post
The last few conversations with Buffalo management and timing of the meeting would leave me surprised at zero information. Why call a presser at all then, unless you have something to say? The only negative thing that could happen, in my opinion, is if they realize that the City of Buffalo is in trade-up-mania, which arguably was started and fueled by them, and attempt to defuse expectations by claiming that "playing it safe" is the best move (which I disagree with).

Here's what I want the opening line to be: "Good Morning. We're here today to announce the completion of a trade for the rights to the 1st overall pick in this year's draft". (However we got there)
It doesn't work that way. Honestly, I wouldn't be shocked if they are doing this presser this early to do some sort of damage control, or at least to temper our expectations. If they give us a week to prep for picking 8th, it won't be such a let down when we have a pedestrian draft.

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06-20-2013, 08:18 AM
  #793
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Guys, I'm 90% positive they do one of these every year leading up to the draft, along with Darcy and Devine doing interviews with WGR.

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06-20-2013, 08:24 AM
  #794
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It doesn't work that way. Honestly, I wouldn't be shocked if they are doing this presser this early to do some sort of damage control, or at least to temper our expectations. If they give us a week to prep for picking 8th, it won't be such a let down when we have a pedestrian draft.
I get that pessimism is the easier road to travel, but until I see Mac/Barkov put on jerseys that aren't Buffalo's, there is hope.

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06-20-2013, 08:49 AM
  #795
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Originally Posted by DYaeger89 View Post
The last few conversations with Buffalo management and timing of the meeting would leave me surprised at zero information. Why call a presser at all then, unless you have something to say? The only negative thing that could happen, in my opinion, is if they realize that the City of Buffalo is in trade-up-mania, which arguably was started and fueled by them, and attempt to defuse expectations by claiming that "playing it safe" is the best move (which I disagree with).
They'll have something to say, but I doubt there'll be much useful information to be shared. I imagine they'll talk about what they're looking for at the draft, talk about how they've been in constant communication with teams above them in the draft, say once again that if they reach a deal to trade up it probably won't be until they're at the draft in New Jersey, etc.

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Here's what I want the opening line to be: "Good Morning. We're here today to announce the completion of a trade for the rights to the 1st overall pick in this year's draft". (However we got there)
Well, as they say, hope in one hand and **** in the other and see which gets filled first. As clandestine as this organization is, I'd imagine that something as big as trading up to #1 would get leaked rather quickly.

Plus, if Darcy says good morning at 1:30 p.m, we'll know he's drunk (or hungover).

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06-20-2013, 08:50 AM
  #796
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Guys, I'm 90% positive they do one of these every year leading up to the draft, along with Darcy and Devine doing interviews with WGR.
I'm fairly certain they did one last year.

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06-20-2013, 08:52 AM
  #797
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I'm fairly certain they did one last year.
Yea, maybe they didn't do them previously but I'm pretty sure they did last year.

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06-20-2013, 08:57 AM
  #798
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Plus, if Darcy says good morning at 1:30 p.m, we'll know he's drunk (or hungover).
Perhaps drunk from the celebration of getting the 1st pick

I'm holding onto this ship until its under the water completely. It just makes perfect sense to me to move some high-assets for this pick.

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06-20-2013, 09:20 AM
  #799
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TB Lightning beat writer Damian Cristodero was on with Howard Simon and Jeremy White this morning. From what I gathered (I was doing other things while listening):

-The chances that TBL trade down from #3 are very slim.

-If they were to trade down, an established top-4 defenseman (in addition to the other team's pick) would have to be the cornerstone of the deal, plus something else. My gut tells me it'd have to be 8 + Ehrhoff + Ennis to get TBL even thinking about it.

-Cristodero thinks that if Jones is there at #3, Tampa picks him and pairs him with Hedman for a long time, but he'll never say never.

-With Bishop/Lindback in the fold, very unlikely Tampa has any interest in Miller at this point.

-He struggles to put together a deal around Vanek that makes sense for Tampa without adding a lot of other "bells and whistles" to it.

-TBL debating buying out Vinny, primarily out of fear of the recapture provision if Vinny retires early--that contract is very frontloaded and would cause havok on their cap if Vinny calls it a career in a few years. I got the sense that likely will not happen this summer, but is definitely on the table next summer.

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06-20-2013, 09:25 AM
  #800
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
TB Lightning beat writer Damian Cristodero was on with Howard Simon and Jeremy White this morning. From what I gathered (I was doing other things while listening):

-The chances that TBL trade down from #3 are very slim.

-If they were to trade down, an established top-4 defenseman (in addition to the other team's pick) would have to be the cornerstone of the deal, plus something else. My gut tells me it'd have to be 8 + Ehrhoff + Ennis to get TBL even thinking about it.

-Cristodero thinks that if Jones is there at #3, Tampa picks him and pairs him with Hedman for a long time, but he'll never say never.

-With Bishop/Lindback in the fold, very unlikely Tampa has any interest in Miller at this point.

-He struggles to put together a deal around Vanek that makes sense for Tampa without adding a lot of other "bells and whistles" to it.

-TBL debating buying out Vinny, primarily out of fear of the recapture provision if Vinny retires early--that contract is very frontloaded and would cause havok on their cap if Vinny calls it a career in a few years. I got the sense that likely will not happen this summer, but is definitely on the table next summer.
Tyvm. If you get a listen to the Sun Sentinel (Florida) gentlemen, throw up some notes on him too.

8 + Ehrhoff/Sekera + Ennis + 52 for 3 + Malone

I could buy into that deal.

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