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Flyers sign Mark Streit to a multi-year deal [4 yrs, $21m; $5.25 AAV] (post #1)

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06-20-2013, 07:27 AM
  #876
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post


What is going to change when Snider steps down? I asked this before in the Snider thread and it got no response for some weird reason, but outside of the Bryz situation, what has Snider done that has had a negative impact on this team? What will be done in the future by whomever replaces Snider?
Lack of patience. Impulsivity. They go hand in hand and are not good qualities for a sports franchise/owner.

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06-20-2013, 07:32 AM
  #877
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
Lack of patience. Impulsivity. They go hand in hand and are not good qualities for a sports franchise/owner.
But again, what did Snider do (outside of Bryz) that hurt this team? What will his replacement do differently in those situations? You can't just say "lack of patience" and "impulsivity" without providing examples.

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06-20-2013, 07:33 AM
  #878
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Originally Posted by Rolex View Post
Comcast owns the Flyers. What is the track record of teams that are owned by corporations? Snider's greatest flaw is a win now attitude. It could be worse for the fans.
Once again...what has he done? These aren't examples.

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06-20-2013, 07:58 AM
  #879
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But again, what did Snider do (outside of Bryz) that hurt this team? What will his replacement do differently in those situations? You can't just say "lack of patience" and "impulsivity" without providing examples.
No one can tell you what Snider did because no one really knows how much he pushed one way or the other on individual decisions. All you can say is that he is at the top of an organization that has been characterized by impulsiveness, and a seeming lack of a long term strategy. I'm not sure whoever takes over for him when he is gone will be any different.

The one thing about the Streit contract is that it's not completely horrible. It's still bad, but it's not as bad as we knew Briere's was going to wind up being, or Bryz's, and it's not as dumb as Shelley's. I'm guessing it's the price Holmgren thought he had to pay to fix the D without moving Couturier or Schenn. I don't know if I agree with that though.

Fixing the D is definitely tricky because on one hand the team is young, on the other hand you can't wait around 4 years to hope a guy you drafted becomes the D man you need because by that time Giroux will be almost 30. Streit isn't the dman we need, and he's not a replacement for Timonen, but I guess he's there to stop gap until someone is ready.


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06-20-2013, 08:23 AM
  #880
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I'd rather Snider try and fail then hold his pursestrings tightly with his cold, dead hands. There are worse situations to be in.

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06-20-2013, 08:30 AM
  #881
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There are worse situations, but there are also better ones. Just like there are worse GM's than Holmgren, but there are also better ones. Something that some people on this forum can't seem to conceptualize.

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06-20-2013, 08:32 AM
  #882
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
No one can tell you what Snider did because no one really know's how much he pushed one way or the other on individual decisions. All you can say is that he is at the top of an organization that has been characterized by impulsiveness, and a seeming lack of a long term strategy. I'm not sure whoever takes over for him when he is gone will be any different.
Oh ok. His potential involvement in moves, not his actual involvement, is why he needs to go.

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06-20-2013, 08:34 AM
  #883
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Oh ok. His potential involvement in moves, not his actual involvement, is why he needs to go.
This may help you understand what I'm talking about.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...l-culture.html

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06-20-2013, 08:50 AM
  #884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
This may help you understand what I'm talking about.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...l-culture.html
The culture is a culture of doing everything to win. Have there been "impulsive" moves? Sure. Every singly organization (sports or otherwise) has done that. The culture is not impulsive moves and impatience. The culture is trying to improve the team and win a Stanley Cup.

If the culture is impatience and impulsiveness, please provide some examples outside of the aforementioned Bryzgalov scenario and why they were impatient or impulsive. Because simply saying that this is the culture doesn't amount to much.

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06-20-2013, 08:56 AM
  #885
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
No one can tell you what Snider did because no one really knows how much he pushed one way or the other on individual decisions. All you can say is that he is at the top of an organization that has been characterized by impulsiveness, and a seeming lack of a long term strategy. I'm not sure whoever takes over for him when he is gone will be any different.

The one thing about the Streit contract is that it's not completely horrible. It's still bad, but it's not as bad as we knew Briere's was going to wind up being, or Bryz's, and it's not as dumb as Shelley's. I'm guessing it's the price Holmgren thought he had to pay to fix the D without moving Couturier or Schenn. I don't know if I agree with that though.

Fixing the D is definitely tricky because on one hand the team is young, on the other hand you can't wait around 4 years to hope a guy you drafted becomes the D man you need because by that time Giroux will be almost 30. Streit isn't the dman we need, and he's not a replacement for Timonen, but I guess he's there to stop gap until someone is ready.
Actually, you can know what Snider did re: Bryz. He answered it in an interview. After the playoff clusterF, he said he told Homer to get a goalie, I don't want to go through that again. He didn't force him to sign Bryz, but he supported it when it came time to sign the contract. I don't see him as a meddling owner. I'm sure there are lots of GMs who would like an owner so willing to pay up for talent.

And I love the main trade board. People are crazy with Flyer hate. The fact is that at $65 million, the Flyers payroll will be just about what it was 10 years ago, but I suspect ticket prices and other revenues have gone up. They are making loads of cash since the first lockout - the salary cap was a windfall for the Flyers, Rangers, Devils and Leafs.

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06-20-2013, 08:57 AM
  #886
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Being a bottom feeder worked for Pittsburgh, but it's one of the reasons I don't know how Pittsburgh "fans" can sleep at night.

Had to go there.
Why wouldn't they be able to sleep at night? They have two of the best players in the league on their team, won a cup with them, and are always in the mix to win another. While Flyers fans are busy thumbing their nose at them for "tanking" they are busy laughing at us because we haven't won a thing since 1975.

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06-20-2013, 09:34 AM
  #887
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It still won't sit right with people who value the integrity of the game. I do not want smudge marks on the Cup when the Flyers win it.

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06-20-2013, 09:38 AM
  #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
The culture is a culture of doing everything to win. Have there been "impulsive" moves? Sure. Every singly organization (sports or otherwise) has done that. The culture is not impulsive moves and impatience. The culture is trying to improve the team and win a Stanley Cup.

If the culture is impatience and impulsiveness, please provide some examples outside of the aforementioned Bryzgalov scenario and why they were impatient or impulsive. Because simply saying that this is the culture doesn't amount to much.
How do you not see that a constant win now mentality is the same as being impulsive? They try to improve the team, but they do it in a way that improves the team for one year, two at the most, and often does not actually improving the team at all, while hampering it in the future.

Do you, as a Flyers fan, really need me to run down the list of trades and signing's over the past 20 years that were made with solely the present in mind?

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06-20-2013, 09:42 AM
  #889
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Originally Posted by JohnnyOnTheSpot View Post
I'd rather Snider try and fail then hold his pursestrings tightly with his cold, dead hands. There are worse situations to be in.
Very much agree.

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06-20-2013, 09:50 AM
  #890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
How do you not see that a constant win now mentality is the same as being impulsive? They try to improve the team, but they do it in a way that improves the team for one year, two at the most, and often does not actually improving the team at all, while hampering it in the future.

Do you, as a Flyers fan, really need me to run down the list of trades and signing's over the past 20 years that were made with solely the present in mind?
Look, I understand that you want the perfect mix of win-now and plan-for-the-future. That doesn't happen. No team does that. Some team's are all win-now. Some team's are all about the future. Some team's are all about making money and not really winning hockey games. The bottom line with the Flyers is that they have an organization that wants to win every year. Is that the best philosphy to have? I have no problem with it, obviously you do. What team would you like the Flyers to model themselves after? The Rangers? The Penguins? The Coyotes? The Blues? The Kings? You want to sit in the basement for five years and hope that the draft picks pan out so you can go on a run like Boston and Chicago? What is it that you want from management? Perfection? You won't get that anywhere (outside of maybe Detroit). You think Ed Snider stepping down will change that? 1) I'd be surprised if it changed. 2) Be careful what you wish for.

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06-20-2013, 10:12 AM
  #891
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Look, I understand that you want the perfect mix of win-now and plan-for-the-future. That doesn't happen. No team does that. Some team's are all win-now. Some team's are all about the future. Some team's are all about making money and not really winning hockey games. The bottom line with the Flyers is that they have an organization that wants to win every year. Is that the best philosphy to have? I have no problem with it, obviously you do. What team would you like the Flyers to model themselves after? The Rangers? The Penguins? The Coyotes? The Blues? The Kings? You want to sit in the basement for five years and hope that the draft picks pan out so you can go on a run like Boston and Chicago? What is it that you want from management? Perfection? You won't get that anywhere (outside of maybe Detroit). You think Ed Snider stepping down will change that? 1) I'd be surprised if it changed. 2) Be careful what you wish for.
Ok, firstly it won't change unless someone from outside the organization comes in and changes the culture.

Secondly, the Red Wings would be a nice model don't you think? The Kings aren't a bad one either. Boston, not bad. Chicago? They drafted their core and use FA and trades to bring people in and then ship them out after their run, keeping the core intact. That's a great way to do it. These teams actually do have the right mix of win now and plan for the future.

The Flyers..well the Flyers are the Rangers. The two are almost mirror images as far as their philosophies go, the difference is the talent evaluation in our organization is usually better.

There is no sure fire way to win a championship. Some teams stink and get lucky and draft Crosby. Some teams get lucky and have overpaid old players that somehow get it done (2009 Yankees). However, the best way to do pretty much everything in life is to be somewhere in between those extremes.

Free Agency does not build you a championship team, but neither does the draft. You have to draft the core of your team and add to it through FA. The Flyers have tried to create part of the core of their team through FA and trades for a long time, and it doesn't work.

The Kings drafted their best players, but they wouldn't have won anything if they had not traded for Carter and Richards, they would be Edmonton, or Columbus. They've been building through the draft for how long now? They're still no where. But the Kings did it the right way. They traded for players in their prime, that will be with them in the future, and have useful years left. The Flyers acquire Modry's, and Amonte's, and Burke's, and sign Rathje's and Geoff Sanderson's. Old, past their prime, often overpaid players that aren't with the team for long. That doesn't win championships.

Holmgren's biggest push for a cup was Pronger, and that was a steep price but a trade worth making. Even though he was old and past his prime, he was still a top 5 dman in the league and would probably still be a solid top 4 guy now. But a lot of the moves made in the past 20 years have been ill advised. Acquiring players good enough to keep the team good, but not good enough to win, and at the cost of potentially better players or more flexibility in the future.

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06-20-2013, 10:24 AM
  #892
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A brief summary of ownership:

Comcast-Spectacor owns the Flyers. And a lot of other stuff, principally Global Spectrum, which I suspect makes most of their money, although the books are not open to the public.
Comcast Corporation is the majority owner of Comcast-Spectacor.
Ed Snider is the minority owner of Comcast-Spectacor.
Snider is also the chairman of Comcast-Spectacor.

I think that covers it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
No one can tell you what Snider did because no one really knows how much he pushed one way or the other on individual decisions. All you can say is that he is at the top of an organization that has been characterized by impulsiveness, and a seeming lack of a long term strategy. I'm not sure whoever takes over for him when he is gone will be any different.
He's been on top of the organization since 1967, and seeing as the Flyers are the second-most successful franchise in the NHL over that period, I'm sorry, but he's not the problem.

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06-20-2013, 10:29 AM
  #893
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He's been on top of the organization since 1967, and seeing as the Flyers are the second-most successful franchise in the NHL over that period, I'm sorry, but he's not the problem.
If you're always spending a ton of money chances are you will be successful. The problem is that they haven't won a championship in 40 years, and that's because trying to buy them rarely works. They have a 95% failure rate in the playoffs.

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06-20-2013, 10:43 AM
  #894
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It still won't sit right with people who value the integrity of the game. I do not want smudge marks on the Cup when the Flyers win it.
Do most team have smudge marks? Doughty, Kane, Toews, Crosby, Malkin, Eric Staal, Lecavalier, Niedermayer, Modana, Yzerman, etc are all high picks that won cups.

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06-20-2013, 10:57 AM
  #895
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If you're always spending a ton of money chances are you will be successful. The problem is that they haven't won a championship in 40 years, and that's because trying to buy them rarely works. They have a 95% failure rate in the playoffs.
When you put it that way they sound awful.

But in fact the expected chance of winning the Cup is 1/16 or 6.25% and the Flyers are at 5.55%. Where they really look bad is in winning finals, where they're only 25% on an expect 50%. So it really depends on how you define failure.

I spent some thing pondering this...two years ago? and decided that as a fan my expectation is for the team to win a playoff series every year. Winning two series is a good year, winning three is excellent, and the goal is of course to win four. Out in the first round is bad and missing the playoffs is awful. But that's just how I feel.


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06-20-2013, 11:18 AM
  #896
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When you put it that way they sound awful.

But in fact the expected chance of winning the Cup is 1/16 or 6.25% and the Flyers are at 5.55%. Where they really look bad is in winning finals, where they're only 25% on an expect 50%. So it really depends on how you define failure.

I spent some thing pondering this...two years ago? and decided that as a fan my expectation is for the team to win a playoff series every year. Winning two series is a good year, winning three is excellent, and the goal is of course to win four. Out in the first round is bad and missing the playoffs is awful. But that's just how I feel.
I agree with your expectations. I think they've been a very successful organization, and I'd never call a 2nd round exit, a bad year unless it ended horribly. I'm just saying that the way they operate is conducive to being a good team year in and year out, but that you're always kind of stuck on that. You don't get that opportunity to be a great team for a few years because you lack stability. I believe that's one of the main reasons it's been so long since they won.

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06-20-2013, 11:20 AM
  #897
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Ok, firstly it won't change unless someone from outside the organization comes in and changes the culture.

Secondly, the Red Wings would be a nice model don't you think? The Kings aren't a bad one either. Boston, not bad. Chicago? They drafted their core and use FA and trades to bring people in and then ship them out after their run, keeping the core intact. That's a great way to do it. These teams actually do have the right mix of win now and plan for the future.

The Flyers..well the Flyers are the Rangers. The two are almost mirror images as far as their philosophies go, the difference is the talent evaluation in our organization is usually better.

There is no sure fire way to win a championship. Some teams stink and get lucky and draft Crosby. Some teams get lucky and have overpaid old players that somehow get it done (2009 Yankees). However, the best way to do pretty much everything in life is to be somewhere in between those extremes.

Free Agency does not build you a championship team, but neither does the draft. You have to draft the core of your team and add to it through FA. The Flyers have tried to create part of the core of their team through FA and trades for a long time, and it doesn't work.

The Kings drafted their best players, but they wouldn't have won anything if they had not traded for Carter and Richards, they would be Edmonton, or Columbus. They've been building through the draft for how long now? They're still no where. But the Kings did it the right way. They traded for players in their prime, that will be with them in the future, and have useful years left. The Flyers acquire Modry's, and Amonte's, and Burke's, and sign Rathje's and Geoff Sanderson's. Old, past their prime, often overpaid players that aren't with the team for long. That doesn't win championships.

Holmgren's biggest push for a cup was Pronger, and that was a steep price but a trade worth making. Even though he was old and past his prime, he was still a top 5 dman in the league and would probably still be a solid top 4 guy now. But a lot of the moves made in the past 20 years have been ill advised. Acquiring players good enough to keep the team good, but not good enough to win, and at the cost of potentially better players or more flexibility in the future.
Red Wings would be a good team to model, no argument there. However, that is a lot easier said than done. You realize that in order to run a franchise like the Blackhawks and Kings, you have to be a pretty bad team for a pretty long time. The Kings made the playoffs like five times since 2000. Blackhawks were among the worst franchises in the league for a pretty long time. The Bruins have done a lot of trading and free agent signings, both of youths and of veterans, not unlike the Flyers to a certain extent. The bottom line is simple. We all want perfection, obviously. I want an owner/ceo/gm whatever that is going to be under the cap, keep all draft picks, sign the best contracts, and plan for the future while also being competitive in the here and now. The problem is that is very difficult. Yes, some teams have done it, most notably the Red Wings. But that doesn't mean that Ed Snider is a problem.

Like I said, be careful what you wish for. Say goodbye to Ed Snider and bring in someone from the outside. Then after five straight years of missing the playoffs and not going after big name guys people will be complaining that the new guy doesn't care about winning.

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06-20-2013, 11:27 AM
  #898
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The second Snider is gone, you better have a replacement as devoted to the organization as he is.

Luukko or Holmgren or Clarke etc.

You can't just let the chairperson be someone appointed by Comcast-Spectacor with no ties to the Flyers.

Our success of the last 45~ years will be a thing of the past very quickly.

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06-20-2013, 11:31 AM
  #899
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Do most team have smudge marks? Doughty, Kane, Toews, Crosby, Malkin, Eric Staal, Lecavalier, Niedermayer, Modana, Yzerman, etc are all high picks that won cups.
A smudge mark is not the same as a team coated in smudge. Sorry, I don't want to win the Cup with MacKinnon, Ekblad, and MacDavid as the core pieces. Those three years of absolute failure would cheapen the experience for me.

We have a team that, if handled the right way, can be a contender in the future. If we build around this core properly, within two or three years, this is going to be a team that can challenge for the Cup. If you don't build around this core properly, in two to three years you'll have a couple shiny prospects, but you'll be no closer to winning the Cup.

Guys like Streit are necessary. Why the hell should we go into next season saying, "Well, we're not going to win the Cup, so let's just pack it in and think about the future". I want to make the playoffs. And if we get a little bit of luck, a run isn't totally out of the question. But either way, I want the young guys to have playoff experience. When is the last Cup winning team that didn't make the playoffs the year before?

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06-20-2013, 11:32 AM
  #900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
The second Snider is gone, you better have a replacement as devoted to the organization as he is.

Luukko or Holmgren or Clarke etc.

You can't just let the chairperson be someone appointed by Comcast-Spectacor with no ties to the Flyers.

Our success of the last 45~ years will be a thing of the past very quickly.
so if he isnt a former Flyer he will have no devition to winning?

what?

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