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The Best Defensive Players - Updated

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Old
01-07-2004, 05:30 AM
  #26
Daryl Shilling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vee-Dub
Daryl, interesting site.
One Question: since RTSS isn't available to the public anymore, how do you get it?
The NHLPA is still quietly keeping the statistics on their website, as it turns out. You can't access them by following links, but by manually editing the url.

http://www.nhlpa.com/Content/WebStat...atGroupId=HBGT

To change teams, enter the corresponding four letter team code, where you see "ANAH" above. The team codes:

ANAH Anaheim Mighty Ducks
ATLA Atlanta Thrashers
BOST Boston Bruins
BUFF Buffalo Sabres
CALG Calgary Flames
CARO Carolina Hurricanes
CHIC Chicago Blackhawks
COLO Colorado Avalanche
COLU Columbus Blue Jackets
DALL Dallas Stars
DETR Detroit Red Wings
EDMO Edmonton Oilers
FLOR Florida Panthers
LOSA Los Angeles Kings
MINW Minnesota Wild
MONT Montreal Canadiens
NASH Nashville Predators
NJER New Jersey Devils
NYIS New York Islanders
NYRA New York Rangers
OTTA Ottawa Senators
PHIL Philadelphia Flyers
PHOE Phoenix Coyotes
PITT Pittsburgh Penguins
SANJ San Jose Sharks
SLOU St. Louis Blues
TAMP Tampa Bay Lightning
TORO Toronto Maple Leafs
VANC Vancouver Canucks
WASH Washington Capitals

Daryl

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Old
01-07-2004, 05:39 AM
  #27
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How were you able to get to page two? When I click next it goes back to the regular stats.

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Old
01-07-2004, 05:57 AM
  #28
tmg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl Shilling
I've been able to get a hold of the 2003 and 2004 RTSS statistics, so I updated Defensive Contribution Index.

How good is young Jay Bouwmeester?
How deserved is Mike Peca's reputation?
How is Jordin Tootoo playing this year?

http://members.shaw.ca/hbtn/

Daryl

Just a rather quick question...
with regard to the complete omission of the 'usual suspects', the guys who are perennial Selke candidates and widely valued for their defensive play... I'm talking about Madden, Lehtinen, Holik...

Do you think the absence of these guys on your ranking list (even last year, when Lehtinen won the Selke) can be attributed to a flaw in your formula, or do you believe that those three players are overrated by the media, fans, and awards-voters and do not deserve the defensive-play accolades they've gotten for their entire careers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl Shilling
The system's purpose is to help fill in the blanks

I'd say that since, so many times, players that are generally regarded as good defensive players keep showing up over and over, that the system is on the right track, for the most part.
But the system has at least three huge blanks of its own. Three players that are generally regarded as among the league's top 5 defensive forwards are absent from the top 10 both this year and last. It may be on a 'consistent' track (the people who rack up the statistics in your formula categories tend to do so every year and thus tend to hold their positions in this ranking), but I don't think it's on the *right* one. To say it's the right one would be to say that Holik, Madden, and Lehtinen are not among the game's best defensive forwards.


Last edited by tmg: 01-07-2004 at 06:02 AM.
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Old
01-07-2004, 06:02 AM
  #29
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That's the most interesting site I've seen in a long time. The work put into it is impressive. Thanks for sharing.

It's funny watching people take some of these ratings personally though. An equation or group of numbers can never fully explain a player's value to a team. It can't explain how much of a liability he is on the ice either. It can give you a general idea as to the player's strengths and weaknesses.

Great site.

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Old
01-07-2004, 07:07 AM
  #30
Daryl Shilling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmg
Just a rather quick question...
with regard to the complete omission of the 'usual suspects', the guys who are perennial Selke candidates and widely valued for their defensive play... I'm talking about Madden, Lehtinen, Holik...

Do you think the absence of these guys on your ranking list (even last year, when Lehtinen won the Selke) can be attributed to a flaw in your formula, or do you believe that those three players are overrated by the media, fans, and awards-voters and do not deserve the defensive-play accolades they've gotten for their entire careers?
They're absent from the top 10, but are generally just outside of it:

Average DCI, 1999-2004
Bobby Holik - 1.88
Jere Lehtinen - 1.44
John Madden - 1.52

That's 88%, 44% and 52% better than league average, respectively. So the DCI system does see them as very good defensive players in the aspects measured by RTSS.

I never suggested that these three player are overrated because they don't appear at the top of DCI standings annually, but can say that they are not the top performers in the aspects of play that RTSS stats track. Very good yes, but not at the top. There's no flaw in the formula in that regard. If a player scores highly, it's because he hits, blocks and doesn't give the puck away alot. DCI does not account for positioning, making smart plays, or some other unmeasured aspects of hockey. The DCI system can't be faulted for erring in things it can't measure.

That said, DCI is not the definitive answer to which players are best defensively. It's more of an aid, and helps give some hard information to go along with the anecdotal info regarding how good players are. It's to help fill in the blanks, not rewrite our understanding of defense, and I've never held it to higher acclaim than that.

Quote:
But the system has at least three huge blanks of its own. Three players that are generally regarded as among the league's top 5 defensive forwards are absent from the top 10 both this year and last. It may be on a 'consistent' track (the people who rack up the statistics in your formula categories tend to do so every year and thus tend to hold their positions in this ranking), but I don't think it's on the *right* one. To say it's the right one would be to say that Holik, Madden, and Lehtinen are not among the game's best defensive forwards.
No, it's to say that in the three key areas that RTSS stats track, they are not among the very top of the game's best defensive forwards. It's also quite reasonable to say that they could be much better at aspects of play that are not measured yet.

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Old
01-07-2004, 07:11 AM
  #31
Daryl Shilling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PEli
That's the most interesting site I've seen in a long time. The work put into it is impressive. Thanks for sharing.

It's funny watching people take some of these ratings personally though. An equation or group of numbers can never fully explain a player's value to a team. It can't explain how much of a liability he is on the ice either. It can give you a general idea as to the player's strengths and weaknesses.

Great site.
Thanks alot.

People do generally take some things like this very personally. New things are usually regarded suspiciously, especially if it doesn't back up what it is commonly regarded as being true. I can't really apologize for certain players not scoring as highly as others, since it's not my job to engineer the process to ensure that they do. When that happens, I've lost objectivity, and the stat says more about me and my beliefs than it does about the players.

You hit the nail on the head when you said that an equation can't full explain a player's value. I made sure to be clear that DCI is not meant to be taken as an absolute measure of value as much as it's another step on the road to better understanding of what happens on the ice.

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Old
01-07-2004, 08:35 AM
  #32
Phaze
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Daryl you are awesome, thanks for the link to that.
I've added your site to my favorites and I will spread the word about your site.

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