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Old
06-20-2013, 04:49 AM
  #51
PerryTurnbullfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fin9* View Post
Couturier + Talbot + Read

Shattenkirk + Cole
This deal is more interesting, but I think Read would need to be changed to a Brandon Manning type rookie with a defenseman coming back to St. Louis. I don't see where the Flyers need Cole though, unless two young d-men just need a scenery change.

I am a Couturier fan, but the Flyers would have to add in order to get Shattenkirk. Probably more along the lines of Couturier and the #11 pick as posted before would be more realistic. Shatty is a proven commodity and the Blues are taking a big risk with Couts not reaching his potential. I don't see where either side would be happy with this deal, which probably would make it fair at least value wise..... Being realistic, Shatty will probably command a deal that would cost a team at least 2 to 3 1st round picks in compensation anyway, unless I'm understanding the restricted free agency rules incorrectly.

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06-20-2013, 01:14 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
Couturier and the 11th overall for Shattenkirk. Its an overpayment, regardless of if Couturier is a fit or not. Shatty is one of my favorite players so I think a lot of Flyers fans wouldnt like that deal.
Big time over payment.

Couturier has a higher ceiling than Shattenkirk

The 11th overall could yield one of Nurse ( unlikely) Ristolainen or Zadorov.... All three that are/ were more highly touted than Shattenkirk. Flyers get immediately better but lose big time in the value department.

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06-20-2013, 01:28 PM
  #53
Daley Tarasenkshow
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Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
Big time over payment.

Couturier has a higher ceiling than Shattenkirk

The 11th overall could yield one of Nurse ( unlikely) Ristolainen or Zadorov.... All three that are/ were more highly touted than Shattenkirk. Flyers get immediately better but lose big time in the value department.
How is Couturier's ceiling higher?

Not only are they different positions, but Shattenkirk has put up points since his rookie year, Couturier has not.

Until couturier starts to score I'm staying away from him. If you ignore his draft spot, which people should consider, than he becomes far less worthy of Shattenkirk. Many top-10 players in the become busts. Just look at recent history of drafts. I'm by no means saying he will be a bust, but you must ignore his draft spot and judge him on his skill. Sure, he has great skill, but he hasn't produced yet and that worries me.

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06-20-2013, 01:30 PM
  #54
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The value is fair and it addresses a need for both teams but I don't think St. Louis would do it.

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06-20-2013, 02:16 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
Big time over payment.

Couturier has a higher ceiling than Shattenkirk

The 11th overall could yield one of Nurse ( unlikely) Ristolainen or Zadorov.... All three that are/ were more highly touted than Shattenkirk. Flyers get immediately better but lose big time in the value department.
Shattenkirk is a proven 43 point defenseman. He still has upside to be a 50 point plus dman. If paired with a stay at home guy he is pretty good defensively.

Couturier is a proven 27 point 3rd line center who I feel will be around 50-55 point center that is great defensively. Shatty and him would pretty much be a wash except right now Shatty is a lot closer to hitting his potential. Heck in the right offensive system I wouldn't be shocked if Shatty hit 60 points.

1993 draft Brendan Witt
1994 draft Jeff Friesen
1995 draft Jarome Iginla
1996 draft Dan Focht
1997 draft Jason Ward (Right Wing)
1998 draft Jeff Heerema (Right Wing)
1999 draft Oleg Saprykin (C)
2000 draft Pavel Vorobiev (Right Wing)
2001 draft Fredrik Sjostrom (Right Wing)
2002 draft Keith Ballard (defence)
2003 draft Jeff Carter (Centre)
2004 draft Lauri Tukonen (Right Wing)
2005 draft Anze Kopitar (Centre)
2006 draft Jonathan Bernier (Goaltender)
2007 draft Brandon Sutter (C/RW)
2008 draft Kyle Beach (left wing)
2009 draft Ryan Ellis
2010 draft Jack Campbell (goaltender)
2011 draft Duncan Siemens (D)
2012 draft Filip Forsberg (RW)

That's the 11th pick the last 20 years of those players I would say Iginla, Carter and Kopitar are better then Shattenkirk. Of course the more recent picks may change that.

Also it should be noted that the Blues are in compete now mode not future mode so proven will always have a little more value to us.


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Old
06-20-2013, 02:37 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
Couturier and the 11th overall for Shattenkirk. Its an overpayment, regardless of if Couturier is a fit or not. Shatty is one of my favorite players so I think a lot of Flyers fans wouldnt like that deal.
That's because its a huge overpayment. No way i would offer anything more than Couturier. And even so I have no interest in moving a future selke nominee. You do see what Bergeron is doing for Boston right?

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Old
06-20-2013, 02:41 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by HighOFFHockey View Post
That's because its a huge overpayment. No way i would offer anything more than Couturier. And even so I have no interest in moving a future selke nominee. You do see what Bergeron is doing for Boston right?
You do know who David Backes is, right?

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Old
06-20-2013, 02:48 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by HighOFFHockey View Post
That's because its a huge overpayment. No way i would offer anything more than Couturier. And even so I have no interest in moving a future selke nominee. You do see what Bergeron is doing for Boston right?
Bergeron scored 73 points in his 2nd NHL season. While it is possible Couturier ends up as good it's probably a 20% chance he actually does. Couturier has not shown he has the same scoring ability as Bergeron has at the NHL level. He also is not as good a Bergeron is defensively yet.

Bergeron 62% on faceoffs this season. 59% last season. Couturier 43% this season 47% last season. Bergeron is one of the best faceoff guys in the entire NHL. Which is one of the many aspects that make him a great player. Bergeron has pretty much been over 50% on faceoffs since he entered the league.


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Old
06-20-2013, 03:00 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
They end up paying him basically nothing en a few years, so financially it's going to balance out as they will be making more then they spend in those years.
He's making 14 million the next 3 years, and 12 million for 2 years after that.

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06-20-2013, 03:22 PM
  #60
Sergei Shirokov
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Due to the fact Couturier isn't as proven as Shattenkirk, I don't think it is enough for STL.

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06-20-2013, 05:01 PM
  #61
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Not even close to fair value. I really don't get all the hype surrounding Couturier.
You've evidently not watched him play. The kid's going to be amazing.

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Old
06-20-2013, 05:08 PM
  #62
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I don't think his offensive game won't develop either. So we agree, it will develop, right?
That was a typo. That was supposed to say I don't think his offensive game is going to develop.

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06-20-2013, 05:23 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
You've evidently not watched him play. The kid's going to be amazing.
First of all, it usually doesn't take this long for a player taken as high as him to score. Second, whether he'll be amazing or not, the blues have no interest in taking that risk and giving up a proven player like Shattenkirk.

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06-20-2013, 05:30 PM
  #64
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Most Flyer fans dont realize Shatty is on his way to becoming an elite offensive defensemen in the league.

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06-20-2013, 05:39 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by your jaskin too much View Post
First of all, it usually doesn't take this long for a player taken as high as him to score. Second, whether he'll be amazing or not, the blues have no interest in taking that risk and giving up a proven player like Shattenkirk.
You're aware there's a little more to the game of hockey than goals, right?

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06-20-2013, 05:39 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by your jaskin too much View Post
First of all, it usually doesn't take this long for a player taken as high as him to score. Second, whether he'll be amazing or not, the blues have no interest in taking that risk and giving up a proven player like Shattenkirk.
Usually players taken that high don't get stuck on third line shut down duty. Second of all, I believe the stat is (or at least was) he's the third highest scoring player from his draft class behind RNH and landeskog.

But the reality is, the flyers, up until now, have needed him to play a shutdown role against some of the top scorers in the game and he has performed admirably. With briere gone now, there is some possibility that he actually starts to see some offensive zone starts, pp and maybe even 2nd line time.

Its fine if you want to value him at a 27 point center. But realize that (realistic) flyers fans, and probably management, view him as a future 50-60 pt defensively elite center. And since we are in no dire need to move him, any team that wants him (and I'm not saying you do) will have to pay with that in mind.

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06-20-2013, 05:39 PM
  #67
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People need to stop valuing prospects as what they could become. If I didn't know any better, I would have thought Couturier is a 60-70 point center that has finished in the top 5 of the Selke.

How many Selke votes did he get for last season? What his career 82 game point pace? Sure he has potential, but good god people.

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06-20-2013, 05:41 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
He's making 14 million the next 3 years, and 12 million for 2 years after that.
Look long-term, it all balances out in the end. He's going to stay in Nashville for the entirety of the deal anyway.

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06-20-2013, 06:27 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
People need to stop valuing prospects as what they could become. If I didn't know any better, I would have thought Couturier is a 60-70 point center that has finished in the top 5 of the Selke.

How many Selke votes did he get for last season? What his career 82 game point pace? Sure he has potential, but good god people.
What? That's ridiculous. A prospect, or very young player in the NHL, is going to be valued on what they will become... That's the whole GD point of developing talent.

This Couts nonsense reminds me of when Flyers fans got a good look at Giroux and said he was going to be something special. Other teams fans game out with their nerdy stat books and shot down Girouxs potential... Not saying Couts will be as valuable as G, but it's very easy to tell who has watched him play and who hasn't. The first give away that someone hasn't really watched Couts play is that they bring up points.

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06-20-2013, 06:31 PM
  #70
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Look long-term, it all balances out in the end. He's going to stay in Nashville for the entirety of the deal anyway.
For it to balance out Weber would have to continue to produce at the highest level of NHL D-men for the whole length of the contract, that's not gonna happen.

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06-20-2013, 06:37 PM
  #71
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What? That's ridiculous. A prospect, or very young player in the NHL, is going to be valued on what they will become... That's the whole GD point of developing talent.

This Couts nonsense reminds me of when Flyers fans got a good look at Giroux and said he was going to be something special. Other teams fans game out with their nerdy stat books and shot down Girouxs potential... Not saying Couts will be as valuable as G, but it's very easy to tell who has watched him play and who hasn't. The first give away that someone hasn't really watched Couts play is that they bring up points.
This is the problem with HF. There are no guarantees with prospects and young players. Look at Patrik Berglund for example, he scored 47 points during his rookie year and looked like he had the potential to develop into what he was suppose to be, a 60+ point big #1 center.

All I hear about Couturier is his potential and excuses for why he didn't produce. Why didn't he receive a single Selke vote if he is already an elite defensive player like some say? But, he was incredible during that joke of a playoff series, so he's obviously going to be a stud.

There is a good amount of risk with Couturier. It is not a given that his offensive game will develop into what it can. For arguments sake, lets say he does develop into a 55ish point center that receives Selke consideration. Well guess what, that still isn't what we are looking for. We could care less about the defensive capabilities of the center that we acquire, just as long as they aren't a liability. Couturier doesn't get Shattenkirk no matter what is added. We aren't going to take a serious downgrade to get someone who isn't the right fit.

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06-20-2013, 06:38 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
For it to balance out Weber would have to continue to produce at the highest level of NHL D-men for the whole length of the contract, that's not gonna happen.
Can I borrow your crystal ball?

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06-20-2013, 06:46 PM
  #73
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This is the problem with HF. There are no guarantees with prospects and young players. Look at Patrik Berglund for example, he scored 47 points during his rookie year and looked like he had the potential to develop into what he was suppose to be, a 60+ point big #1 center.

All I hear about Couturier is his potential and excuses for why he didn't produce. Why didn't he receive a single Selke vote if he is already an elite defensive player like some say? But, he was incredible during that joke of a playoff series, so he's obviously going to be a stud.

There is a good amount of risk with Couturier. It is not a given that his offensive game will develop into what it can. For arguments sake, lets say he does develop into a 55ish point center that receives Selke consideration. Well guess what, that still isn't what we are looking for. We could care less about the defensive capabilities of the center that we acquire, just as long as they aren't a liability. Couturier doesn't get Shattenkirk no matter what is added. We aren't going to take a serious downgrade to get someone who isn't the right fit.
Lol! Get real. Everyone understands that players can bust, but it is 100% known you haven't watched Couts play. You're a stat junkie, and base your opinion on selke votes... Lame.

Who votes for the Selke? Is by chance the same boneheads that had Letang as a Norris finalist? It's a popularity contest, not a definitive measure of a player.

When did I say Couts would get Shat? (that's a much better nickname for him)

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06-20-2013, 06:49 PM
  #74
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Can I borrow your crystal ball?
You need a crystal ball to understand that for NSH to get value on the Weber deal that Weber needs to perform at a high level through the back end of his contract?

It's impossible for that deal to balance out if production tails off. That was the whole point of the offer sheet, it was designed as a financially irresponsibility. Holmgren/Snider just hoped NSH couldn't afford to be so fiscally irresponsible.


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06-20-2013, 06:51 PM
  #75
bleedblue1223
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
Lol! Get real. Everyone understands that players can bust, but it is 100% known you haven't watched Couts play. You're a stat junkie, and base your opinion on selke votes... Lame.

Who votes for the Selke? Is by chance the same boneheads that had Letang as a Norris finalist? It's a popularity contest, not a definitive measure of a player.
I have watched him play and I like how you pick certain parts.

Do you agree or disagree that his likely development is a 55ish point center that receives Selke consideration? Basically he develops into someone who produces like Backes.

The whole point of this is if Couturier+ for Shattenkirk makes sense for the Blues. It doesn't and it not even that close to a fit.

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