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Something brewing between Maple Leafs and Oilers?

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Old
06-20-2013, 12:27 PM
  #251
Alexander Baigle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
The Oilers aren't trading for a back up goalie with the #7 pick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander Baigle View Post
I think Toronto might be best off sending Scrivens to Edmonton, he'd be good under Eakins and have more of an opportunity. He wants to be a #1 or at least push for that and Riemer >>> Dubnyk. I think he should likely be a part of any moving up deal.

But who do the leafs take at #7?
yeah like right there see

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06-20-2013, 12:30 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Shame View Post
For Oilers fans who consider Gardiner + 21st for 7th realistic, if the situation was reversed would you be willing to give up J. Schultz for the 7th pick?
Obviously the team needs are different, but value-wise the argument is there... Does anyone think Anaheim would give up the Cam Fowler + 26th for the 7th?
7th >> Gardiner.

teams generally dont trade a top 10 pick and not get another first round pick as part of the deal.

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06-20-2013, 12:30 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by pucky View Post
Gardiner is an enigma. Tons of skating skill, good at handling/moving the puck but the question is on hockey IQ and toughness. He seems soft but maybe his hockey IQ is good enough? I think it is too early for the Leafs to give up on him.

As for the other scrubs the Leaf fans keep mentioning. IMHO, I don't know why you are so concerned about Franson. Good player, good shot from the point, but not very quick or mobile. He's a 5th/6th dman for a reason. But, if Edm wanted him, why not?
WTF did I just read?

Gardiner is an enigma? He has played phenomenal for us since he got here, the only slight dent in his ability came during recovery from a concussion, beyond that he has been on a straight line of improvement.

Nobody has ever questioned his hockey IQ. The guy can flat out move the puck, whether it is with his skating skill, or his vision to make a long strech pass. I don't know where you even got this idea from.

"Too early to give up on him"? Nobody has ever given up on him at all, Toronto fans love him. WHAT ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT?

This post made my head hurt, seriously

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Old
06-20-2013, 12:35 PM
  #254
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The leafs made the playoffs for the first time in how many years ? How come Colborne could not make the Leafs who is weaker then the Oilers at Centre ? Leaf fans are funny all their players are the best all the best players are signing with them every year . As for playing on a weak team and still putting up points you fail at you attempt to put Gagner down . The west is much tougher to play in , if he was true as bad as you say it would be easy for the defence of the western team to shut him down . It is why Kessel,s could ever make it in the west , well he may be a 20 goal guy in the west ,but no more
Come off your high horse bud. Yours is the last team I should see looking down on the Leafs.

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06-20-2013, 12:38 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Shame View Post
For Oilers fans who consider Gardiner + 21st for 7th realistic, if the situation was reversed would you be willing to give up J. Schultz for the 7th pick?
Obviously the team needs are different, but value-wise the argument is there... Does anyone think Anaheim would give up the Cam Fowler + 26th for the 7th?
Well Schultz almost matched Gardiner's 11/12 season point totals in a half season as a rookie. So it might be fair to say that we value Schultz more than Gardiner. And Fowler is much more NHL proven than Gardiner and hit 40p as an 18yo rookie.

So I am not sure those comparables really fit.

Also I have seen few arguing for Gardiner + 21st for 7. Most Oiler fans have been saying Gardiner + 21st for 7th + something good but not great.

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06-20-2013, 12:40 PM
  #256
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Im gunna howl if this is something along the lines of Frazer Maclaren for a 5th.

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06-20-2013, 12:43 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djp View Post
7th >> Gardiner.

teams generally dont trade a top 10 pick and not get another first round pick as part of the deal.
Gardiner >> 7th overall

Teams also generally don't trade proven players for picks outside the top 3 which could possibly turn into busts. There is no way Leafs trade Gardiner for 7th overall unless they are sure the player available at that spot will turn out better than Gardiner.

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06-20-2013, 12:44 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Look man, I'm not decrying Franson here.
All I've said the whole time is that Franson is a 5/6 Dman who's GREAT on the PP, for all the above reasons and youtube clips you just posted.

I don't think you'll find very many posters here who are comfortable having Franson shutting down any other teams top players, which is what a top 4 dman is supposed to do. Can Franson log over 22 minutes a night? I don't think so.

Maybe he's turned a corner and is knocking at the door. I'd like to see a full season and more than 7 play off games to buy what you're selling though.
I'm very impartial to this entire argument. I agree with your assessment of Gagner. He is definitely worth more than a #21 and colborne. Here in ontario, leaf fans have overvalued joe colborne for MANY years. He is a fringe NHLer/AHL all-star at best.

However, concerning franson, you are incorrect. While I don't support the contention that he's an "all-purpose" D, as others have said, I wouldn't outright call him a bottom pairing D-man. Your argument of x amount of goals even strength hardly supports any notion of a D-men being on a certain level, as does shooting %. These are very irrelevant facts as they are not what D-men are evaluated based on.

That said, I view franson as 4/5 guy with the potentially of developing into a bonafide 2nd pairing defender. His positioning in the D-zone needs work, but aside from that he possesses all the tools to be a solid 2nd pairing defender on most above average teams.

Additionally, he is a step ahead of smid and schultz, and an oiler fan should welcome him with open arms despite his handedness.

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06-20-2013, 12:45 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by H0MER View Post
Gardiner >> 7th overall

Teams also generally don't trade proven players for picks outside the top 3 which could possibly turn into busts. There is no way Leafs trade Gardiner for 7th overall unless they are sure the player available at that spot will turn out better than Gardiner.
Agreed, oilers fans (and leaf fans) have undervalued gardiner throughout this process. If anyone watched toronto in the playoffs, they'd realize this kid is going to be an absolute STUD. Enough said.

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06-20-2013, 12:46 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Alexander Baigle View Post
yeah like right there see
Right, I missed that, my bad.

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06-20-2013, 12:46 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Well Schultz almost matched Gardiner's 11/12 season point totals in a half season as a rookie. So it might be fair to say that we value Schultz more than Gardiner. And Fowler is much more NHL proven than Gardiner and hit 40p as an 18yo rookie.

So I am not sure those comparables really fit.

Also I have seen few arguing for Gardiner + 21st for 7. Most Oiler fans have been saying Gardiner + 21st for 7th + something good but not great.
To be fair more than half of Schultz's points this season came on the PP. In 11/12 Gardiner was playing as many minutes on the PP as on the PK (both on the 2nd units). 21 of his 30 points came in the final 40 games of that regular season.. And we saw that version of Gardiner in the playoffs against the Bruins.

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Old
06-20-2013, 12:50 PM
  #262
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For all we know, Mac T and Nonis could have been debating what type of toilet paper is the best to wipe their ass with for 10 minutes. Mac T trades the no name brand toilet paper and Shawn Horcoff for Nonis' Charmin toilet paper

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Old
06-20-2013, 12:51 PM
  #263
Groucho
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Originally Posted by xxreact9 View Post
I'm very impartial to this entire argument. I agree with your assessment of Gagner. He is definitely worth more than a #21 and colborne. Here in ontario, leaf fans have overvalued joe colborne for MANY years. He is a fringe NHLer/AHL all-star at best.

However, concerning franson, you are incorrect. While I don't support the contention that he's an "all-purpose" D, as others have said, I wouldn't outright call him a bottom pairing D-man. Your argument of x amount of goals even strength hardly supports any notion of a D-men being on a certain level, as does shooting %. These are very irrelevant facts as they are not what D-men are evaluated based on.

That said, I view franson as 4/5 guy with the potentially of developing into a bonafide 2nd pairing defender. His positioning in the D-zone needs work, but aside from that he possesses all the tools to be a solid 2nd pairing defender on most above average teams.

Additionally, he is a step ahead of smid and schultz, and an oiler fan should welcome him with open arms despite his handedness.
I brought up goals/shooting% because he was being put into ridiculous positions by supporters claiming he would have been the 3rd highest scoring Dman behind players like Karlsson and Letang etc in a full season.

Fact of the matter is he put up 3 of his 4 goals on the PP and his shooting %age in the playoffs (which were also brought up) was way above his career average and it was a 7 game sample.

I stand by my claims, others have also said he is no where mobile enough to be a reliable shutdown Dman in the top 2 pairings. I didn't say that, others did.

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06-20-2013, 12:58 PM
  #264
Atomos2
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Well Schultz almost matched Gardiner's 11/12 season point totals in a half season as a rookie. So it might be fair to say that we value Schultz more than Gardiner. And Fowler is much more NHL proven than Gardiner and hit 40p as an 18yo rookie.

So I am not sure those comparables really fit.

Also I have seen few arguing for Gardiner + 21st for 7. Most Oiler fans have been saying Gardiner + 21st for 7th + something good but not great.
I don't know if Schultz was on the first pp unit or not so I can't speak for him, but from the beginning of the 2011/12 season up until January (when Liles got a concussion against Buffalo) Liles and Phaneuf where the d pairings for the first pp unit. It wasn't until Liles went down that Gardiner actually had any real time on the pp, so that could have affected his stats. I think he only had like a few points in the first half of that season.

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06-20-2013, 12:59 PM
  #265
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Schultz played first unit PP and also PK'd, part of the reason why his TOI was so high as a rookie

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06-20-2013, 01:00 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Halibut View Post
Doesnt have to be a move for immediate help if they think Gardiner is redundant with Reilly ready to move in. If it takes a couple years for whoever they get at 7 to step in and really be effective but he ends up being as good or better than Kadri while their blueline doesnt suffer then it's a win-win. Lindholm is supposedly a high end talent at center and he might be available at 7.

I agree it'd be hard to give up Gardiner but it'd be hard for the Oilers to pass on a Lindholm or a Monahan. It all comes down to what your scouts feel about certain players, your team depth not just your valuation of a single player, and your feeling on how it will all play out in the future.
It doesn't matter. The leafs are starting to get into win mode. Gardiner is a great defenseman. You don't trade him for a what could be. Let Reilly come in and prove that Gardiner is redundant before they make that decision. This would be an idiotic move and I doubt the leafs would do it. I wouldn't trade Gardiner straight up for the 7th, let alone + 21st.

This is coming from a Rangers fan, not a leafs fan.

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06-20-2013, 01:00 PM
  #267
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D'Amigo will have a hard time fiting on a Carlyle team though.

He doesn't add versatility by being a center, he isn't good enough offensively to play ahead of Kessel, Kulemin, Frattin, JVR, Lupul. The number 6 winger need to bring some offence or be a shutdown guy (and if he's being used in defensive zone faceoffs he needs to be able to take faceoffs if necessary like Komarov).

Carlyle uses two bruisers on the 4th line a lot in Orr and McLaren.

Unless D'Amigo becomes adds another dimension to his game like faceoff ability, fighting, being a pest I don't think he has a role with a Carlyle team.
Carlyle really likes Holzer and so do I. He struggled in his first stint in the NHL but he showed ALOT of good as well. I think he will make the team next year as a depth D. He's got size and sandpaper that this team covets back there.

As for D'Amigo, he's staying as well. Spark plug player that we really could use. Not overly physical but gets under the skin of others well. Plus he has better upside than McLaren and Orr. He'll fit on our 4th line.

You guys can have Ashton or Kenny Ryan though...

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06-20-2013, 01:01 PM
  #268
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The problem that I have with this trade is that the Leafs and Oilers both want the same player/players (Lindholm/Monahan) at seventh overall and that the Maple Leafs are a playoff team and, generally speaking, playoff teams not run by Paul Holmgrem rarely trade key roster players for high picks.

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06-20-2013, 01:09 PM
  #269
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The Oilers need Defense but we also need offensive depth. i'd go with Nurse or Monahan at 7 if it's not traded for Gardiner. Lindholm is okay but I don't know if he'll come to the North America anytime soon. Haven't read anything about that though...

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06-20-2013, 01:11 PM
  #270
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This thread should just be closed until the playoffs are over. The pissing contest in here is embarrassing.

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06-20-2013, 01:14 PM
  #271
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The problem that I have with this trade is that the Leafs and Oilers both want the same player/players (Lindholm/Monahan) at seventh overall and that the Maple Leafs are a playoff team and, generally speaking, playoff teams not run by Paul Holmgrem rarely trade key roster players for high picks.
Brilliant point: The main reason I think this is going to be a second rounder for a prospect sort of trade.

Colbourne for a second this and next year? Overpay? Underpay? That's the kind of discussion that should be happening.

Gardiner isn't getting moved, he means too much to the TML and they want the moon for him.

Oilers think the 7th overall is the moon and three quarters.

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06-20-2013, 01:17 PM
  #272
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The Oilers need Defense but we also need offensive depth. i'd go with Nurse or Monahan at 7 if it's not traded for Gardiner. Lindholm is okay but I don't know if he'll come to the North America anytime soon. Haven't read anything about that though...
Lindholm is signed in Sweden for one more year, then would likely come over if he was NHL ready IMO.

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06-20-2013, 01:43 PM
  #273
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I think that we will see the 7th and other stuff going to TO for Gardiner and Colborne. BTW. According to capgeek.com. Paul Ranger had an AHL only contract, so the leafs do not own his rights in any form at the NHL level

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06-20-2013, 01:44 PM
  #274
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I saw another post that said this:
To Chicago:
Gagner
2013 2nd Round Pick
Marincin

To Edmoton:
Leddy
Bolland

Personally I would add Gernat and Chicago's first this year so we could get Compher, then we wouldn't need Monahan or Lindholm and we could get Nurse. Just some thoughts...

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06-20-2013, 01:52 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Djp View Post
7th >> Gardiner.

teams generally dont trade a top 10 pick and not get another first round pick as part of the deal.
If you think the pick is more valuable than a proven nhl defenceman, you're crazy. gardiner is more valuable to us than the 7th pick. We're not rebuilding so a pick is useless to us, especially for gardiner.

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