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Something brewing between Maple Leafs and Oilers?

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Old
06-20-2013, 01:55 PM
  #276
archangel archangel
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Originally Posted by BetterCallSaul View Post
If you think the pick is more valuable than a proven nhl defenceman, you're crazy. gardiner is more valuable to us than the 7th pick. We're not rebuilding so a pick is useless to us, especially for gardiner.
one full year does not make JG a proven nhl d-man.

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06-20-2013, 02:04 PM
  #277
Earth Rocker
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Leafs aren't interested in trading young players for picks or for older players.

As stated by the leafs brass, they will trade young players from a position of strength for other young players of equal ability for a position of weakness....like the Schenn/JVR deal.

The other option mentioned is that the Leafs will take on a teams bad contract to amnesty in exchange for tangible assets that fit into the teams core age.

so the probability of Gards be dealt for a pick is low, it will be for either a young center coming back to the Leafs in any Gardiner trade.....or we take Horcoff/other bad contract + good asset (e.g Paajarvi) in exchange for mid round pick or mid level prospect, with the intent to amnesty Horcoff/other bad contract

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06-20-2013, 02:11 PM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Rocker View Post
Leafs aren't interested in trading young players for picks or for older players.

As stated by the leafs brass, they will trade young players from a position of strength for other young players of equal ability for a position of weakness....like the Schenn/JVR deal.

The other option mentioned is that the Leafs will take on a teams bad contract to amnesty in exchange for tangible assets that fit into the teams core age.

so the probability of Gards be dealt for a pick is low, it will be for either a young center coming back to the Leafs in any Gardiner trade.....or we take Horcoff/other bad contract + good asset (e.g Paajarvi) in exchange for mid round pick or mid level prospect, with the intent to amnesty Horcoff/other bad contract
Why would we do that when we could just amnesty Horcoff ourselves?

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06-20-2013, 02:12 PM
  #279
GordieHoweHatTrick
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Originally Posted by Nugie Boy View Post
For all we know, Mac T and Nonis could have been debating what type of toilet paper is the best to wipe their ass with for 10 minutes. Mac T trades the no name brand toilet paper and Shawn Horcoff for Nonis' Charmin toilet paper
You could be right but I'd counter with the argument that making small talk during the GMs meetings is counter-productive considering they could be using that time to discuss deals with other GMs. For that reason I doubt they spent noticeable amount of time making small talk.

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06-20-2013, 02:12 PM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Rocker View Post
Leafs aren't interested in trading young players for picks or for older players.

As stated by the leafs brass, they will trade young players from a position of strength for other young players of equal ability for a position of weakness....like the Schenn/JVR deal.

The other option mentioned is that the Leafs will take on a teams bad contract to amnesty in exchange for tangible assets that fit into the teams core age.

so the probability of Gards be dealt for a pick is low, it will be for either a young center coming back to the Leafs in any Gardiner trade.....or we take Horcoff/other bad contract + good asset (e.g Paajarvi) in exchange for mid round pick or mid level prospect, with the intent to amnesty Horcoff/other bad contract
If they're interested in swapping young players for position of need, then trading for a draft pick does make sense, if:
a) Leafs management feels they need another high end forward
b) Leafs scouts feel that they can get an NHL ready impact forward in this draft, either by drafting 7th or trading for 7th and then moving up
c) Leafs management feels comfortable trading a defender to address this need

Remember that D take longer to develop fully, so a sophomore or rookie D for an NHL ready rookie forward isn't necessarily that big of a developmental gap.

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06-20-2013, 02:16 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
If they're interested in swapping young players for position of need, then trading for a draft pick does make sense, if:
a) Leafs management feels they need another high end forward
b) Leafs scouts feel that they can get an NHL ready impact forward in this draft, either by drafting 7th or trading for 7th and then moving up
c) Leafs management feels comfortable trading a defender to address this need

Remember that D take longer to develop fully, so a sophomore or rookie D for an NHL ready rookie forward isn't necessarily that big of a developmental gap.
Not necessarily agreeing with Gardiner for the 7th, but trading for a pick makes sense as it's a standardized currency so to speak. It has a relatively set value. Some teams might not need D, or an offensive D specifically, so to them Gardiner's value might be lower than what it is to other teams. Swapping Gards for the pick solves this issue and should get roughly the same value from all 29 teams.

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06-20-2013, 02:17 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcrazycanuck View Post
one full year does not make JG a proven nhl d-man.
it does when compared to a 7th pick.

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06-20-2013, 02:18 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by xxreact9 View Post
I'm very impartial to this entire argument. I agree with your assessment of Gagner. He is definitely worth more than a #21 and colborne. Here in ontario, leaf fans have overvalued joe colborne for MANY years. He is a fringe NHLer/AHL all-star at best.

However, concerning franson, you are incorrect. While I don't support the contention that he's an "all-purpose" D, as others have said, I wouldn't outright call him a bottom pairing D-man. Your argument of x amount of goals even strength hardly supports any notion of a D-men being on a certain level, as does shooting %. These are very irrelevant facts as they are not what D-men are evaluated based on.

That said, I view franson as 4/5 guy with the potentially of developing into a bonafide 2nd pairing defender. His positioning in the D-zone needs work, but aside from that he possesses all the tools to be a solid 2nd pairing defender on most above average teams.

Additionally, he is a step ahead of smid and schultz, and an oiler fan should welcome him with open arms despite his handedness.
Sorry... whaaat!?!!? Have you not been watching the last three years... you know, when Smid emerged as one of the top shut-down Dmen in the league... where he has led his team in ice-time (as compared to Franson who took a huge step forward this year, but was in the A the year(s) before)?

Smid has been among the top in the league in blocked shots, solid numbers in hits, takeaways, TOI, GA/60... etc. All measures that PROVE him to be a solid step ahead of Gardiner, Shultz, Petry and (definitely) Franson.

You must have a counter argument? I'd be curious to hear it.

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06-20-2013, 02:21 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by knwledge View Post
Why would we do that when we could just amnesty Horcoff ourselves?
I think you missed the point he's not saying edmonton would or should do he's saying IF toronto takes a buyout the a young asset needs to come back. Think Lombardi/Franson or Lupul /Gardiner

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06-20-2013, 02:28 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcrazycanuck View Post
one full year does not make JG a proven nhl d-man.
Gardiner already has one year of accomplishment more than that 7th over pick may EVER have. And don't go and tell me how Monahan/Lindholm or whoever will be a sure fire pick. No pick is "sure fire".

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06-20-2013, 02:30 PM
  #286
Rob Brown
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
You could be right but I'd counter with the argument that making small talk during the GMs meetings is counter-productive considering they could be using that time to discuss deals with other GMs. For that reason I doubt they spent noticeable amount of time making small talk.
Except that having a short conversation with your peers (or friends) during a break or at the end of the day does not take up a lot of time, nor would it be out of the ordinary.


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06-20-2013, 02:34 PM
  #287
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Unless the scouts are sure of the talent at #7, I would be very hesitant of trading gardiner. He is a second pairing defensemen with definite first pairing upside. High ceiling, high floor. He has shown he can play in the nhl level. He was our second best D last year, the best D in the marlies, and our best defenseman in the playoffs. He controlled the game and carlyle said he was elite offensively. He had a poor season but thats a combination of the sophomore slump + concussion.

I mean, this trade *could* be a good hockey trade but thats a lot of risk for us. Besides I am not really sure how much the oilers would benefit from a gardiner type D.

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06-20-2013, 02:34 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Earth Rocker View Post
Leafs aren't interested in trading young players for picks or for older players.

As stated by the leafs brass, they will trade young players from a position of strength for other young players of equal ability for a position of weakness....like the Schenn/JVR deal.
Nonis dealt a few older players for picks in Lombardi/Brown. With how weak the Oilers are on the blueline and having lots of cap space I could see them offering a pick for Liles who would fill the LD PP role that Whitney occupised. The Oilers wouldn't have to give up a lot and he could be used in a veteran mentor type role as well as allow the Oilers time to develop their D prospect instead of rushing them into hard NHL minutes before their ready.

Liles is a better option to fill that LD PP role then any available free agent.

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06-20-2013, 02:36 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
Unless the scouts are sure of the talent at #7, I would be very hesitant of trading gardiner. He is a second pairing defensemen with definite first pairing upside. High ceiling, high floor. He has shown he can play in the nhl level. He was our second best D last year, the best D in the marlies, and our best defenseman in the playoffs. He controlled the game and carlyle said he was elite offensively. He had a poor season but thats a combination of the sophomore slump + concussion.

I mean, this trade *could* be a good hockey trade but thats a lot of risk for us. Besides I am not really sure how much the oilers would benefit from a gardiner type D.
they take ANY D right now

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06-20-2013, 02:39 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by mrcrazycanuck View Post
one full year does not make JG a proven nhl d-man.
Coolbeans.

Toronto would be more interested in acquiring an "unproven" 1 year d-man like Justin Schultz from the Oilers rather than deal Jake Gardiner.

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06-20-2013, 02:40 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Beleafer4 View Post
Unless the scouts are sure of the talent at #7, I would be very hesitant of trading gardiner. He is a second pairing defensemen with definite first pairing upside. High ceiling, high floor. He has shown he can play in the nhl level. He was our second best D last year, the best D in the marlies, and our best defenseman in the playoffs. He controlled the game and carlyle said he was elite offensively. He had a poor season but thats a combination of the sophomore slump + concussion.

I mean, this trade *could* be a good hockey trade but thats a lot of risk for us. Besides I am not really sure how much the oilers would benefit from a gardiner type D.
MacT wants guys who can move the puck up to the forwards in stride. The Oilers defence wasn't awful defensively last year, but they don't have enough effective puck movers. That's why MacT would be targeting a player like Gardiner, he probably sees a bit of Kieth in him.

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06-20-2013, 02:42 PM
  #292
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how about oilers trade 2014 1st round pick and 2015 1st round pick for kessel?

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06-20-2013, 02:42 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by BoldNewLettuce View Post
Ranger and kulemin for gagner signing
Ranger isn't Leafs property.

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06-20-2013, 02:44 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by CornKicker View Post
how about oilers trade 2014 1st round pick and 2015 1st round pick for kessel?
Lol no thanks

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06-20-2013, 02:49 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by Nugie Boy View Post
Lol no thanks
You wouldn't trade those two picks even though there going to 1st mid-round pick for kessel???

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06-20-2013, 02:50 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Morgan Gardiner View Post
Nick Kypreos says that he saw Dave Nonis and Craig MacTavish "talking for a pretty good portion after their GM meetings".
This isn't much to go on. For all we know, they were reminiscing about the 06 Anaheim/Edmonton playoff series.

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06-20-2013, 02:51 PM
  #297
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The players being discussed could be numerous but Stauffer just mentioned that Scrivens was trying to be moved by Nonis at the deadline (and he said he knows that for sure). So Oilers could have interest in Scrivens....

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06-20-2013, 02:51 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by Altaris View Post
You wouldn't trade those two picks even though there going to 1st mid-round pick for kessel???
Ya we would, he's just out to lunch.

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06-20-2013, 02:59 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by Altaris View Post
You wouldn't trade those two picks even though there going to 1st mid-round pick for kessel???
I would rather offersheet a defenseman like Pietrangelo or Shattenkirk. We are already loaded on the wings and i would not be surprised if at least one of those picks is top 10

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06-20-2013, 03:02 PM
  #300
Ricky Bobby
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Originally Posted by Arpeggio View Post
MacT wants guys who can move the puck up to the forwards in stride. The Oilers defence wasn't awful defensively last year, but they don't have enough effective puck movers. That's why MacT would be targeting a player like Gardiner, he probably sees a bit of Kieth in him.
Or he could settle on Liles who wouldn't cost much to acquire, the Oilers have the cap room for and would be a stop gap till their prospects are ready.

He could do for the Oilers what he did for the Leafs by running the powerplay well, being a mentor and buying the Leafs time to develop younger options in Franson, Gardiner.

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