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Madison Square Garden Renovations (Part V)

View Poll Results: Which do you prefer?
Old MSG 79 49.07%
New MSG 82 50.93%
Voters: 161. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-18-2013, 01:02 PM
  #751
Megustaelhockey
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Personally I find the money being spent on renovating that building a joke.

Should have built a new arena from the ground up.

The building is an ugly relic from the 60's with no architectual appeal.

I hear Worlds Most Famous Arena and think to myself that place is a fricking dump
Our ownership can't play nice with other so-called powerful grown-ups, so a new building was never a realistic possibility. Maybe in 15 to 20 years...

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06-18-2013, 01:04 PM
  #752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Personally I find the money being spent on renovating that building a joke.

Should have built a new arena from the ground up.

The building is an ugly relic from the 60's with no architectual appeal.

I hear Worlds Most Famous Arena and think to myself that place is a fricking dump
where do they play while a new building is built if they rebuilt in the same location?

if they play at MSG while the new one is built, where do you find the land to build a new garden?

if you're jim dolan, why do you leave the easiest area to get to by mass transit and leave your property tax break?

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06-18-2013, 01:59 PM
  #753
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So are there two
Bridges or one? If model is correct then one.
Two bridges. The lens used to capture the photo makes the one on the 33rd street side look shorter than the one on the 31st side, but you can clearly see the shadows cast down on the bowl by their presence.

It would seem that the media is only displacing the bar-stool cafe-type seating on the 31st St bridge.


Cheers!
-Doug

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06-18-2013, 02:25 PM
  #754
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Bumping this from earlier in the thread. Hope the virtual venue gets updated for everyone to see soon.

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Old
06-18-2013, 02:35 PM
  #755
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Bumping this from earlier in the thread. Hope the virtual venue gets updated for everyone to see soon.
Quite similar to the view from behind the press gondola in Montreal...

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06-18-2013, 02:42 PM
  #756
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The tv's are nice but it still stinks that you can't see the entire arena from your seat anymore.

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06-20-2013, 10:42 AM
  #757
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There were all kinds of articles this morning about the city council session talking about moving the Garden in 15 years to revamp and expand Penn Station... Lots of Knicks players and Spike Lee spoke in favor of keeping the Garden in the current location.

We could be fifteen years away from a battle to keep the Rangers in Manhattan. I can't see the issue ending well with Dolan at the top...

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06-20-2013, 10:55 AM
  #758
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even if they evict the garden, MSG co still owns the land. they could do whatever they want with the land. they don't have to build a train station.

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06-20-2013, 11:01 AM
  #759
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Originally Posted by Megustaelhockey View Post
There were all kinds of articles this morning about the city council session talking about moving the Garden in 15 years to revamp and expand Penn Station... Lots of Knicks players and Spike Lee spoke in favor of keeping the Garden in the current location.

We could be fifteen years away from a battle to keep the Rangers in Manhattan. I can't see the issue ending well with Dolan at the top...
Never gonna happen. Many want it to, because they still cry over the loss of old Penn Station, but in reality, putting a shiny new head-house on Penn Station is like throwing money onto a bon-fire.

An expansion of Penn Station begins with additional tracks / tunnels under the East and Hudson Rivers. Capacity is currently dictated by the amount of trains that they can move in and out of Penn, and the number of platforms that trains can idle at to discharge and take on passengers.

When Penn Station was "remodeled" in the mid-late 60's, not one track was removed after all was said and done, and no more than one track was ever closed when they put the pilings in to hold up 2 Penn and the Garden. If Old Penn was never taken down, they'd still be complaining about capacity.

Tunnels come first, platforms second, then worry about the head house.

Now, with regards to the Garden. It is private property. What do you value that property at? 2 billion? More? How long will it take CV to amortize their renovation? 20 or 30 years? You'd need to compensate Cablevision for their property before you even consider moving them. Then you'd need to tear it down and prepare it for redevelopment. You'd spend 5 billion just acquiring the property and preparing it. Now you need to build your new head house. You will also need to find another two city blocks on which to locate a new Garden. Where do you find it? and better yet, how do you pay for it? Government is broke.

It's a pipe dream, and a big smoke screen to appeal to a fragment of voters. It's not a smart financial venture. It would be a money pit.

Cheers!
-Doug

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06-20-2013, 11:12 AM
  #760
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Originally Posted by dstoffa View Post
Never gonna happen. Many want it to, because they still cry over the loss of old Penn Station, but in reality, putting a shiny new head-house on Penn Station is like throwing money onto a bon-fire.
couldnt have said that better myself.. where is all that money going to come from?

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06-20-2013, 01:34 PM
  #761
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Bumping this from earlier in the thread. Hope the virtual venue gets updated for everyone to see soon.
Balls to the face, that looks like sh$t.

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06-20-2013, 02:03 PM
  #762
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It's a pipe dream, and a big smoke screen to appeal to a fragment of voters. It's not a smart financial venture. It would be a money pit
Mostly agree. MSG should be allowed to amortize their renovations over the next 20-30 years, but in no way should they be granted a permanent license to operated. In 20 years or so they should be forced to move, with the right mix of incentives. MSG, or a buyer would be responsible for funding most of the construction of the head house and would get rights to primo office towers above the new station in the heart of manhattan. MSG would need to obtain a decent plot of land in manhattan and will probably want to take its tax breaks with it

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06-20-2013, 02:25 PM
  #763
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Mostly agree. MSG should be allowed to amortize their renovations over the next 20-30 years, but in no way should they be granted a permanent license to operated. In 20 years or so they should be forced to move, with the right mix of incentives. MSG, or a buyer would be responsible for funding most of the construction of the head house and would get rights to primo office towers above the new station in the heart of manhattan. MSG would need to obtain a decent plot of land in manhattan and will probably want to take its tax breaks with it
The problems with Penn Station and its capacity are all underground. All the proposals I read are about bringing light down to the track level, and creating open spaces... The concourse was paved over by the Pennsylvania Railroad before the Second World War. Creating the open space pretty much removes property from the tax rolls.

The first issue needs to be tunnels. Gov Christie killed the tunnel to Macy*s basement. So that is dead in the water at this time. With the LIRR East Side Access, we may actually see more NJT trains in Penn. Time will tell how that pans out.

The second issue will be additional platforms in Penn. The only place to put them will be north and south of the current station. That means putting them under the buildings bounded by 33rd, 8th av, 34th st, 7th ave, and 31st, 8th av, 30th, and 7th av. A lot to land to eminent domain. Not to mention utilities that will require relocation.

Their vision isn't realistic in toady's Manhattan. You needed that space boxed out by 1950. It will be extremely expensive to reclaim the land needed.

In way of the Garden. Sure, move them. You'll be giving the Dolans tens of billions to do it. Where is the money? And where do they move to? How can you be certain that some other community board won't vote them out? Everyone will claim, "Not here. Put them somewhere else!" And the further you put them from Penn Station, the less attractive the new location becomes.

Cheers!
-Doug

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06-20-2013, 04:11 PM
  #764
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Nothing is forever, especially in New York. If the Garden wants the right granted to stay in its current location, it needs to give up its tax abatement.

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06-20-2013, 04:55 PM
  #765
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Bumping this from earlier in the thread. Hope the virtual venue gets updated for everyone to see soon.
could be worse...
I'll reserve my judgement till its finished.

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06-20-2013, 11:31 PM
  #766
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could be worse...
I'll reserve my judgement till its finished.
That appears to be the view from about row 16...what does it look like from row 20 or 24?

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06-20-2013, 11:32 PM
  #767
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I am row 13.. I am praying I could move up a few rows when I have my appointment in 2 weeks.

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06-21-2013, 12:49 AM
  #768
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http://vv-msg-rangers-2013.s3.amazonaws.com/media/vrview/images/Section_221/VR_Section_221_17_20/VR_Section_221_17_20_Front.jpg

Bumping this from earlier in the thread. Hope the virtual venue gets updated for everyone to see soon.
What row is this??

Adam

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06-21-2013, 07:51 AM
  #769
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So they're still going ahead with that strange walkway above the ice surface then? Seems like that will kill the view for a ton of rows.

As for the subway....is it even possible to make more tunnels under the city? You guys are already right along the water and at sea level, and the sheer weight of buildings and traffic above must be immense. Add in the increase in geological activity from Ontario south to New York state over the last few year, and adding more tunnels feels like a major, major, Hollywood-sized disaster waiting to happen. There has to be a better way to move people around.

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06-21-2013, 07:56 AM
  #770
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While the bridges are going to be a visual disaster from the upper 200 level for Hockey and other events, I can only imagine what Audio Engineers are going through. Concert sound reinforcement in the world's most overrated arena is going to be quite a challenge as the bridges will create audio dead zones. This however, could be a plus if JD and the Straightshot is on the bill.

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06-21-2013, 09:04 AM
  #771
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Update - Ice floor is starting to come out now. Will try to get a photo up shortly.


Last edited by islandxtreme26: 06-21-2013 at 09:12 AM.
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06-21-2013, 09:43 AM
  #772
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Originally Posted by dstoffa View Post
The problems with Penn Station and its capacity are all underground. All the proposals I read are about bringing light down to the track level, and creating open spaces... The concourse was paved over by the Pennsylvania Railroad before the Second World War. Creating the open space pretty much removes property from the tax rolls.

The first issue needs to be tunnels. Gov Christie killed the tunnel to Macy*s basement. So that is dead in the water at this time. With the LIRR East Side Access, we may actually see more NJT trains in Penn. Time will tell how that pans out.

The second issue will be additional platforms in Penn. The only place to put them will be north and south of the current station. That means putting them under the buildings bounded by 33rd, 8th av, 34th st, 7th ave, and 31st, 8th av, 30th, and 7th av. A lot to land to eminent domain. Not to mention utilities that will require relocation.

Their vision isn't realistic in toady's Manhattan. You needed that space boxed out by 1950. It will be extremely expensive to reclaim the land needed.

In way of the Garden. Sure, move them. You'll be giving the Dolans tens of billions to do it. Where is the money? And where do they move to? How can you be certain that some other community board won't vote them out? Everyone will claim, "Not here. Put them somewhere else!" And the further you put them from Penn Station, the less attractive the new location becomes.

Cheers!
-Doug
That doesn't make any sense. The hudson river tunnels are at full capacity according to Amtrak. How would LIRR trains leaving Penn open up spots for NJT? The LIRR spots are just creating space in the east river tunnels. Plus the LIRR has said they don't plan on diminishing the amount of trains that it runs to Penn Station anyway. But who am I kidding. East side access won't open until this 15 year debate is over lol.

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06-21-2013, 09:52 AM
  #773
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That doesn't make any sense. The hudson river tunnels are at full capacity according to Amtrak. How would LIRR trains leaving Penn open up spots for NJT? The LIRR spots are just creating space in the east river tunnels. Plus the LIRR has said they don't plan on diminishing the amount of trains that it runs to Penn Station anyway. But who am I kidding. East side access won't open until this 15 year debate is over lol.
I was under the impression that unless the LIRR gets the 3rd track on the main line plus all their sidings (and the locals are complaining), there isn't much room for additional trains, they are pretty much at their capacity now. I also believe they don't have the rolling stock at this time. I would imagine that diverting some trains to GCT would free up platform space in Penn to stage additional NJT trains... Of course, if the LIRR plans to run additional trains to GCT instead of diverting trains, then my argument fails...

Cheers!
-Doug

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06-21-2013, 10:13 AM
  #774
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Most of the morning NJT trains end up parking in queens at the sunnyside yard

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06-21-2013, 10:29 AM
  #775
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i heard there might be a few more hudson line Metro North trains going into Penn once ESA is done

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