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Kris Letang on the block?

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Old
06-20-2013, 10:21 AM
  #376
Stats01
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
Shero said this morning that he hopes to have a deal with Letang done by next week
First of all what is he supposed to say other then that. And second, I like that he conveniently brings up next week as the draft is coming up in a week. I think this is going to be a Staal situation where if Shero doesn't want to sign him then he's going to trade him at/near the draft for a package. No way they drag this situation into next year IMO.

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06-20-2013, 10:32 AM
  #377
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Originally Posted by thedjpd View Post
?

His post wasn't exactly dripping with sarcasm, at least not that I could detect.

Considering people are talking about Coburn/Couturier + 11th for Jonathan Bernier in other threads, it's pretty difficult to distinguish sarcasm anymore.
People suggested a trade with Philadelphia.

I suggested a trade where they'd have to overpay.

What don't you get about that? Of course they'd have to overpay, they're our rivals and need a D like Letang.

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06-20-2013, 10:42 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
you seem to be the one doing the reading into haha

All I did was pass along a quote from Shero. I don't care what anyone does with it
Touche.

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Old
06-20-2013, 10:43 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
Well you've seen him in action a helluva lot more than me. I'm actually shocked at your scouting report.
Totally different story 5 on 5. But, PP QB, he's more a good second unit guy than elite. Maybe some other Pens fans will differ.

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06-20-2013, 11:14 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by hockeyjack13 View Post
Letang for Yakupov, Paajarvi and a 2nd or 3rd round pick??
Change Paajarvi to a defensemen and absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stats01 View Post
First of all what is he supposed to say other then that. And second, I like that he conveniently brings up next week as the draft is coming up in a week. I think this is going to be a Staal situation where if Shero doesn't want to sign him then he's going to trade him at/near the draft for a package. No way they drag this situation into next year IMO.
Well, Shero wants to sign him and is trying to get a deal done. Obviously if he can't, he'll trade him.

But it's important for him to get a Letang deal done as soon as possible because he is a huge domino that will affect the way he attacks free agency. If he trades Letang at the draft, he might bring back a top six forward and that will change his negotiations with Dupuis/Iginla and he might push harder after Scuderi. If he trades Letang and brings back a top 4 defensemen, then he has to fill the hole in the top six.

Also knowing the capspace Letang will take up for the 2014-15 season is crucial, because he'll know how much he can realistically spend to fill the other holes during this offseason, unless he signs everyone to one year deals (which obviously won't happen). There are many more reasons than just trading him at the draft for why he'd like to get the deal done before it.

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06-20-2013, 11:16 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by hockeyjack13 View Post
Letang for Yakupov, Paajarvi and a 2nd or 3rd round pick??
Are you drunk?

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06-20-2013, 11:21 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post
Change Paajarvi to a defensemen and absolutely.



Well, Shero wants to sign him and is trying to get a deal done. Obviously if he can't, he'll trade him.

But it's important for him to get a Letang deal done as soon as possible because he is a huge domino that will affect the way he attacks free agency. If he trades Letang at the draft, he might bring back a top six forward and that will change his negotiations with Dupuis/Iginla and he might push harder after Scuderi. If he trades Letang and brings back a top 4 defensemen, then he has to fill the hole in the top six.

Also knowing the capspace Letang will take up for the 2014-15 season is crucial, because he'll know how much he can realistically spend to fill the other holes during this offseason, unless he signs everyone to one year deals (which obviously won't happen). There are many more reasons than just trading him at the draft for why he'd like to get the deal done before it.
The most obvious reason is that he'll have more prospective trade partners. Not sure if TB and CAR will be players, but their picks make them much more attractive prospective trade partners.

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06-20-2013, 11:27 AM
  #383
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Don't be fooled by the points that he's got, he's on, he's on the trade block.
He used to get paid a little now he wants a lot.
No matter where he goes he knows he is getting some!

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Old
06-20-2013, 12:21 PM
  #384
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It really makes me sick to my stomach to think the Pens may trade Letang, and somehow keep Fleury. If we move Letang there is absolutely zero chance that our D is as good next season as this season, and our goaltending will be just as bad come playoff time with an even weaker defensive group.

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06-20-2013, 12:39 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Letang fan 58 View Post
It really makes me sick to my stomach to think the Pens may trade Letang, and somehow keep Fleury. If we move Letang there is absolutely zero chance that our D is as good next season as this season, and our goaltending will be just as bad come playoff time with an even weaker defensive group.
So Letang fan 58, what you're saying is, No More Fleury?

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06-20-2013, 07:12 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by domaug View Post
1. Letang is a better player than Staal and is a PMD which are still at a premium around the league

2. he didn't handcuff Shero by saying in front of the whole league "not only will i not re-sign with you, but i will also welcome an extension from one particular team".


1. Staal is a big two way center, are those not in demand anymore ?

2. I would love to see a link of him saying that, since you quoted it.

3. Letang is not worth 7 million plus on a long term deal IMO.

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06-20-2013, 08:24 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Leafs87 View Post
1. Staal is a big two way center, are those not in demand anymore ?

2. I would love to see a link of him saying that, since you quoted it.

3. Letang is not worth 7 million plus on a long term deal IMO.
People saying he's not worth 7 are nuts. This is the new CBA, and Gonchar just signed a 5 mil deal. Streit signed for 5.25 for 4 years. Neither of those guys is in the same universe as Letang as an overall player, yet you think he would be paid in the same range as those players? There's obviously a very high demand for PMD's.

Most teams in the league would give him 7 without thinking. Enough would pay him 8.

So let's cut out this "he's not worth it" crap. He clearly is, the only question is how much will he fetch in a trade.

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06-20-2013, 08:58 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Aiastelmon View Post
People saying he's not worth 7 are nuts. This is the new CBA, and Gonchar just signed a 5 mil deal. Streit signed for 5.25 for 4 years. Neither of those guys is in the same universe as Letang as an overall player, yet you think he would be paid in the same range as those players? There's obviously a very high demand for PMD's.

Most teams in the league would give him 7 without thinking. Enough would pay him 8.

So let's cut out this "he's not worth it" crap. He clearly is, the only question is how much will he fetch in a trade.
I don't necessarily disagree with your premise (that Letang is an 8M player in the new CBA era). With that said, I don't think the gap between Gonchar and Letang is quite as wide as some may think. Here is my comparison of the two:

Letang:
- 5 on 5 point production is phenomenal (his biggest strength)
- Big minute eater (1st or 2nd on the team)
- Defensive zone coverage is good, but certainly not the best on his own team
- PP production is good, but maddeningly shy of where it could be given his talent
- The biggest knock against Letang (from the 12-13 campaign) is that he isn't the Pens' #1 dman: Paul Martin is.

Gonchar:
- 5 on 5 point production is good
- Big minute eater (1st or second on the team)
- Defensive zone coverage is mediocre
- PPQB ability is still elite (better than Letang's IMO)
- The biggest knock against Gonch is that he is aging and not as well-rounded as he was in his prime.

The reality is that both of these guys are relied on to be their team's second best defensemen and both perform very well in that role. Yes, on the whole Letang is a better player, but I really don't think the difference between what they bring a team on an immediate basis is as much as some would think. Of course, Letang obviously has several productive years ahead of him whereas Gonch's career is winding down.

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06-20-2013, 09:08 PM
  #389
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I don't think Letang is worth 7+mil AAV. He's not a player I'd want my team building their defence around at that cost.

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06-20-2013, 09:54 PM
  #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetangInTheSO View Post
- PPQB ability is still elite (better than Letang's IMO)
For all the talk of Gonch being a better QB, he last time we had him as our QB the PP really sucked.

Gonch is more aesthetically pleasing on the PP because he's composed, has a great shot, and passes well. Letang gets better results because he's more athletically gifted and dynamic.

They don't give points for style.

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06-20-2013, 10:43 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by LetangInTheSO View Post
I don't necessarily disagree with your premise (that Letang is an 8M player in the new CBA era). With that said, I don't think the gap between Gonchar and Letang is quite as wide as some may think. Here is my comparison of the two:

Letang:
- 5 on 5 point production is phenomenal (his biggest strength)
- Big minute eater (1st or 2nd on the team)
- Defensive zone coverage is good, but certainly not the best on his own team
- PP production is good, but maddeningly shy of where it could be given his talent
- The biggest knock against Letang (from the 12-13 campaign) is that he isn't the Pens' #1 dman: Paul Martin is.

Gonchar:
- 5 on 5 point production is good
- Big minute eater (1st or second on the team)
- Defensive zone coverage is mediocre
- PPQB ability is still elite (better than Letang's IMO)
- The biggest knock against Gonch is that he is aging and not as well-rounded as he was in his prime.

The reality is that both of these guys are relied on to be their team's second best defensemen and both perform very well in that role. Yes, on the whole Letang is a better player, but I really don't think the difference between what they bring a team on an immediate basis is as much as some would think. Of course, Letang obviously has several productive years ahead of him whereas Gonch's career is winding down.
Your post is great but the idea that Letang is not the Penguins best defenseman is absurd and really needs to stop. There is this notion here that the only responsibility that a defenseman has is defense. Kris Letang is to defenseman what Patrice Bergeron is to forwards. He is a good defender with elite offensive skills. Bergeron is a good scorer with elite defensive skills.

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06-20-2013, 10:43 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by Leafs87 View Post
1. Staal is a big two way center, are those not in demand anymore ?

2. I would love to see a link of him saying that, since you quoted it.

3. Letang is not worth 7 million plus on a long term deal IMO.
1. i never said they weren't still in demand. players like Staal (two-way 2/3C) and Letang (great PMD) are still very much in demand. the thing, though, is that Letang still has more value because his offensive stats as a PMD keep getting better and he was just nominated for the Norris.

2. Staal clearly didn't say that outright but his actions fit that description. he turned down a $6M per year contract with the Pens for 10 years and he then reportedly confirmed that he would re-sign with the Hurricanes if he were traded there.

3. i'm not arguing with you on that front. i think the most the Pens (or anyone) should pay for Letang is $6.5M per year. $7M is still possible and i probably wouldn't feel too too bad if the Pens kept him for that much, but i think Letang's ceiling cap-wise (based on what i've seen from him in an "all-around" judging of his abilities) is about $6.5M per year.

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06-20-2013, 10:58 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Are you drunk?
That's pretty fair value in all honesty...assuming Letang is locked up.

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06-20-2013, 11:14 PM
  #394
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That's pretty fair value in all honesty...assuming Letang is locked up.
Its not even close to fair value.

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06-21-2013, 12:20 AM
  #395
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The tough part in trading for Letang is he plays with the 2 best players in hockey. His offensive numbers SHOULD be elite..Yet looking at his stats.
And, with full respect, that's the problem (to borrow your words) with assessing a player based a recital of stats, alone. If we were building a fantasy league team, then you'd have a point (no pun intended). That's not what Shero is tasked with doing. And last I checked, this is not the fantasy league board.

WATCH Letang with a modicum of appreciation for the transition game and you'll quickly notice that he is not "a product of his team" as misguidedly stated elsewhere in this thread. To the contrary, his team's offense, is greatly reliant on him. Why? Because he often ignites it. He cleans out the zone superbly, either by lugging the puck or via sharp breakout passes. No crisp breakout, much less of Malkin and Crosby going to work with speed across the other team's blue line.

And Paul Martin, Orpik, etc, solid dmen they are, do not provide nearly the ability in that critical aspect of the game. (And I'm not a Pens fan.)

Letang is a catalyst on the blueline, a physical presence and his best years are ahead of him. On the Penguins, very likely.

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06-21-2013, 01:55 AM
  #396
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Pretty hard to say without seeing who/what would come back in a deal for Letang.

Hopefully Rossi is right this time (not likely). Now is the perfect time to move him, coming off a Norris nomination and with a year left on his deal. The return should be large.
He's a damn good player but I would assume a team wouldn't give up a whole lot unless they can hammer out an extension before the trade.

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06-21-2013, 02:18 AM
  #397
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Your post is great but the idea that Letang is not the Penguins best defenseman is absurd and really needs to stop. There is this notion here that the only responsibility that a defenseman has is defense. Kris Letang is to defenseman what Patrice Bergeron is to forwards. He is a good defender with elite offensive skills. Bergeron is a good scorer with elite defensive skills.
I think your Letang/Bergeron analogy is interesting and very much on point. With regards to the "who was the Pens' #1 dman" debate, I would concede that it's not as cut/dry as I made it out to be. Here is how I would grade each of them...

Martin:
Defensive Coverage: A
Physicality: B-
Puck Movement/Transition Game: A
PP Ability: A
Offense Output (Overall): A

Letang:
Defensive Coverage: B
Physicality: A
Puck Movement/Transition Game: A
PP Ability: B-*
Offensive Output (Overall): A++

* This may seem absurd given that Letang outproduced Martin on the PP, but that's primarily due to Letang getting 60% more PP time than Martin. On a per minute basis, Martin outproduced Letang on the PP and - putting the stat sheet aside - Martin's decision making on the PP is much better than Letang's. I'd love to see the statistic for shorthanded chances against that resulted from Letang gaffes on the PP. Martin is a steady if unspectacular PPQB whereas Letang leaves you holding your breath when trying to force plays on the PP.

TL;DR: On a spectrum where the upper most 3 grades are "Good," "Great" and "Exceptional," Letang is good at most things and exceptional at one thing. Martin is great at most things and good at one.


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06-21-2013, 02:30 AM
  #398
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Anyhow, obviously they are very close. If Martin wasn't the Pens' #1dman this season, the gap between the two players was very close. I think this - combined with the Pens' cap situation - is why Pens fans are worried about paying Letang $7-8M. As for my own $0.02, I'm desperately hoping the Pens find a way to keep Letang in the fold, but I will understand if the #s don't work out and they have to move in...though I may cry a little.

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06-21-2013, 04:31 AM
  #399
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
Still think he's not worth that money. It's market based and he will get it but he's just not a guy you pay that money to. You can build around him and hide those minuses and he'll be fine. He's a player your essentially paying that money to be elite off the rush and QB a pp but he's not to be matched up shutting down the other teams best player or anchoring a PK unit.

Also yes the Streit and Gonchar contracts inflated the market I don't deny that.
If it is market based, and market sets the price, and you think he will get the market price, then how can you follow all three of those statements up with, "hes not a guy you pay that money to"?
It is contradictory.
I dont think you watch him all that much either based on your assesment of his positive attributes.
He is not an elite PP QB.
He is however, elite 5 on 5 in all three zones. No, he is not a shutdown type defensemen whom is sent out there to keep the primary oppositions offensive threats in check. But he still nullifies them a good many times by being first on the puck and then getting the puck up the ice. He is elite in the transition. He is an elite skater. He is elite off the rush. He is elite at moving the puck. 2 of those four things he is elite at which I just named are defensive aspects to the game.

The guy is a lightning rod for criticism, and most of it is unfounded. Most of it is based on the old train of thought that an elite offensive defenseman cant actually play defense. A stereotype.
And one that is wrong in Letangs case.
He is extremely good on the PK (Im not sure even what you mean by being the anchor as a be all and end all). His 5 on 5 Corsii rating is among the leagues best. Third in fact (defensemen averaging over 17 minutes). And the guy logs some major minutes.
He has his recurring issues at times, dont get me wrong. Most of it centers around his offensive decisions btw, which in turn end up being a goal against. Not because he misses an assignment in the Dmzone.

The guy deserves 7 million dollars although I am hoping he signs for 6.5 for 8 years. If he is traded I will be pretty pissed off!

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06-21-2013, 05:11 AM
  #400
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And no, Paul Martin is not a better defenseman, did not have a better year and cannot replace the things which the Penguins would lose if Letang were to depart.
The small yet vocal Martin contingent needs to realize that while Martin improved dramaticly, it was still only 31 games removed from a sub par and a god awful season.

Martin plays a much safer game and isnt prone to the occasional glaring bad play which is easily identified when Letang does such. But rather it be subtle, or glaring, he still makes mistakes. He simply doesnt have people go balistic whennhe does it and over analyze him to death.
Martin is very weak along the boards in the defensive zone. He has major issues getting the puck to a forward coming out of the zone. He struggles when he has the puck in the defensive zone if there is any kind of pressure put on him. He throws the puck anywhere if you put pressure on him in the defensive zone.
He still gets beat along the boards far to often.
As for this nonsense that he is better on the power play than Letang, again. I dont see it. It is exactly as I said above, that he doesnt have the occasional gaffe which somehow then is translated into: Martin is better on the power play.
Or they say its because his shots get on net despite Letangs almost tripling Martins shots which get on net.
Letang hits more, blocks more shots and has 2 less takeaways than Martin.

This notion among some that Martin is now this all around stud defenseman is misleading. Perhaps it is because of how awful he was last year which skewers the perception of how good he is this year.
And dont get me wrong. He has been a good #2 guy. But the notion that he has been better than Letang is not based in reality. The guy is simply void of criticism this year even when it was warranted, while Letang is a lightning rod for it even when not at fault.

Pens fans have been known to do this before withelitendefensemen who have an offensive flair. They ran a 26 year old defenseman (ironic) out of town who just finished a season where he averaged over a point per game (another irony) because of some perceived slight of his work on the powerplay.
Sergei Zubov. Who would go on to be a great defensman for many years.

The vocal minority about Letang remind me of those screaming for Zubov to be gone and who were happy that he was traded for Kevin Hatcher.

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