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2013 NHL Draft Talk Part V: Flyers own the 11th overall pick

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06-21-2013, 06:57 AM
  #626
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
I can't see Jones dropping out of the top3, but that is an interesting scenario.
Albeit unlikely with 3 out of the top4 prospects being forwards Nashville would really like.
If Colorade doesn't pick Jones I believe Dave Tallon would be more than happy to take him.
I really believe that Florida will be taking a forward. Tallon has already drafted a nice collection of dmen in Kulikov, Gudbranson, Petrovic and Matheson. Florida needs to not just start winning but also needs to draw at the gate by being entertaining. Defensemen might win championships but forwards draw better at the gate and offer an almost immediate boost. Look at the Capitals who went from empty building to full houses by playing a no defense all offensive brand of hockey. Same thing happend in Chicago, which Tallon helped build, when Kane and Toews got there. Adding Drouin or Barkov to Huberdeau is going to make for exciting hockey. Selling tickets is just as important as winning games for non-traditional markets.

The real wildcard in all this is Tampa. They could go Jones, Nichuchskin, or who ever remains of Barkov or Drouin. Even though they need defense, I think they will go forward as well as they will need a high end talent to pair with Stamkos since St Louis is coming to the end. After drafting Hedman and watching how long his progression has taken, I think they will go with the safer and more immediate bet in a forward.

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06-21-2013, 06:59 AM
  #627
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There are rumors out there that Holmgren wants to move up. Not so sure how far he could get though. I don't think any of the Aves, Panthers, or Lightening are moving out of the top 3. Nashville is a interesting spot though.

If the Aves and Florida both take a forward, that leaves the Seth Jones and one of Barkov, Nichuchskin, and or Drouin there at 3. If Tampa takes Nichuchskin, then I think Nashville will take Barkov/Drouin. If however, Tampa takes Barkov/Drouin, I doubt Nashville will take Nichuchskin after the Radolov incident and will be left with Jones or Monahan or Lindholm on the board with a desperate need for a center. Would they then trade the 4th overall for say 11 and Couturier or B. Schenn? I can see Seth Jones dropping all the way to 5. The question is would the Flyers actually trade up for him.
I'm of the opinion that Couturier or Schenn + whatever we get at 11 > Seth Jones.

Bobby Clarke Fan has really got me sold on Josh Morissey. I want the high IQ, elite skating defender with tons of offensive skill. It screams PK Subban.

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06-21-2013, 07:32 AM
  #628
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I'm of the opinion that Couturier or Schenn + whatever we get at 11 > Seth Jones.

Bobby Clarke Fan has really got me sold on Josh Morissey. I want the high IQ, elite skating defender with tons of offensive skill. It screams PK Subban.
To me those are the most important factors in players developing. You have to have some combination of very good IQ, skating, or puck control skills. However, for a dman the absolute most important thing is their hockey sense. That is why they don't hit their prime until later. Playing D is much more about understanding the game than your athletic ability, as opposed to playing forward, which is why they peak earlier than dmen.

That's why I like the idea of Ristolainen and Morissey. Hockey IQ seem to be one of their stronger qualities, and they both are supposed to be above average skaters that handle the puck well.

Guys that are described as having great speed great hands, but lacking the hockey IQ are usually the ones that don't pan out, unless their talent is just overwhelming.

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06-21-2013, 07:38 AM
  #629
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I know some Florida fans who will be really pissed if they don't get to take MacKinnon at #2. They have had their hearts set on him for months.

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06-21-2013, 07:49 AM
  #630
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I know some Florida fans who will be really pissed if they don't get to take MacKinnon at #2. They have had their hearts set on him for months.
Barkov is a great consolation prize, even though most casual fans have no idea how good he is.

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06-21-2013, 08:38 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
To me those are the most important factors in players developing. You have to have some combination of very good IQ, skating, or puck control skills. However, for a dman the absolute most important thing is their hockey sense. That is why they don't hit their prime until later. Playing D is much more about understanding the game than your athletic ability, as opposed to playing forward, which is why they peak earlier than dmen.

That's why I like the idea of Ristolainen and Morissey. Hockey IQ seem to be one of their stronger qualities, and they both are supposed to be above average skaters that handle the puck well.

Guys that are described as having great speed great hands, but lacking the hockey IQ are usually the ones that don't pan out, unless their talent is just overwhelming.
Well then you'll be happy to know that we've only ever drafted two Europeans in the 1st round; well Europeans actually playing in Europe at the time.

They were Peter Forsberg and Joni Pitkanen. Every other player we've ever selected in the 1st round was already playing in North America somewhere when we picked them.


On a side note: This dude got picked in the 1st round before Clarke in the 1969 Draft. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=10846

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06-21-2013, 08:39 AM
  #632
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I see a lot more of the OHL and Q than I do the WHL. Can anyone tell me why Morrissey is considered a late first by most projections? I see things like high hockey IQ, elite skating, tons of offensive skill, and good puck handling being tossed around. He has 90 PIM last year which, unless they were lazy penalties, makes me think that though he isnt big, that he has a bit of a nasty streak to him. He was also 3rd on the team in +/- which isnt an exact science obviously but if you're a bad defender it's unlikely you'll be near the top of your team. Basically what I'm asking is, whats the catch? By the way people talk about him, he sounds like someone that would be the 2nd or 3rd defenseman taken, not potentially the 7th or 8th.

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06-21-2013, 09:02 AM
  #633
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To me those are the most important factors in players developing. You have to have some combination of very good IQ, skating, or puck control skills. However, for a dman the absolute most important thing is their hockey sense. That is why they don't hit their prime until later. Playing D is much more about understanding the game than your athletic ability, as opposed to playing forward, which is why they peak earlier than dmen.

That's why I like the idea of Ristolainen and Morissey. Hockey IQ seem to be one of their stronger qualities, and they both are supposed to be above average skaters that handle the puck well.

Guys that are described as having great speed great hands, but lacking the hockey IQ are usually the ones that don't pan out, unless their talent is just overwhelming.
These are the two I favor at 11 as well.

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I see a lot more of the OHL and Q than I do the WHL. Can anyone tell me why Morrissey is considered a late first by most projections? I see things like high hockey IQ, elite skating, tons of offensive skill, and good puck handling being tossed around. He has 90 PIM last year which, unless they were lazy penalties, makes me think that though he isnt big, that he has a bit of a nasty streak to him. He was also 3rd on the team in +/- which isnt an exact science obviously but if you're a bad defender it's unlikely you'll be near the top of your team. Basically what I'm asking is, whats the catch? By the way people talk about him, he sounds like someone that would be the 2nd or 3rd defenseman taken, not potentially the 7th or 8th.
His size is the issue.

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06-21-2013, 09:05 AM
  #634
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Originally Posted by StoneHands View Post
I see a lot more of the OHL and Q than I do the WHL. Can anyone tell me why Morrissey is considered a late first by most projections? I see things like high hockey IQ, elite skating, tons of offensive skill, and good puck handling being tossed around. He has 90 PIM last year which, unless they were lazy penalties, makes me think that though he isnt big, that he has a bit of a nasty streak to him. He was also 3rd on the team in +/- which isnt an exact science obviously but if you're a bad defender it's unlikely you'll be near the top of your team. Basically what I'm asking is, whats the catch? By the way people talk about him, he sounds like someone that would be the 2nd or 3rd defenseman taken, not potentially the 7th or 8th.
It's his size.

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06-21-2013, 09:08 AM
  #635
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Most places I look lists him as 6 feet and 185 pounds. By the time he fills out you would think he will be at least six feet tall and around 200 pounds. If he really does skate as well as they say and have a great hockey iq he should be fine. Put him with a schenn or coburn type player and you should have a great pairing

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06-21-2013, 09:30 AM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post

His size is the issue.
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
It's his size.
Does he play small? Does he play like Streit/Markov, or more like a Kronwall? He racks up some PIM so I assume he mixes it up a little bit. We don't need big hitters, but we don't want someone soft either.

How is his defensive awareness and positioning?

Like I said, I know very little about the WHL, I follow the OHL pretty closely so i'm eager to see what he's like.

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06-21-2013, 09:47 AM
  #637
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Originally Posted by StoneHands View Post
Does he play small? Does he play like Streit/Markov, or more like a Kronwall? He racks up some PIM so I assume he mixes it up a little bit. We don't need big hitters, but we don't want someone soft either.

How is his defensive awareness and positioning?

Like I said, I know very little about the WHL, I follow the OHL pretty closely so i'm eager to see what he's like.
Morrissey definitely doesn't play small. He's one of the best open ice hitters and can throw a hip check real well.

In terms of defensive awareness and positioning, his defensive awareness is superb. The problem with positioning is that he can be a little to aggressive at times (both offensively and defensively), but that's something that can be addressed rather easily. As he matures, he'll pick his spots better.

He had a fantastic U18 tournament and I know the Flyers scouts pay a lot of attention to that tournament. Personally, I hope that Morrissey is the guy they draft. Gut feeling says that the defenseman they draft is either Rasmus Ristolainen (who I also think is a very, very, very good defenseman) or Samuel Morin (he has all the tools to be a great defender, but he's probably about 5 to 6 years away from making a real impact).

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06-21-2013, 09:58 AM
  #638
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Originally Posted by StoneHands View Post
Does he play small? Does he play like Streit/Markov, or more like a Kronwall? He racks up some PIM so I assume he mixes it up a little bit. We don't need big hitters, but we don't want someone soft either.

How is his defensive awareness and positioning?

Like I said, I know very little about the WHL, I follow the OHL pretty closely so i'm eager to see what he's like.
Corey Pronman describes him as someone who isn't soft, but is outmuscled for pucks.

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1529

His report on him sounds really good

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06-21-2013, 09:59 AM
  #639
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Most places I look lists him as 6 feet and 185 pounds. By the time he fills out you would think he will be at least six feet tall and around 200 pounds. If he really does skate as well as they say and have a great hockey iq he should be fine. Put him with a schenn or coburn type player and you should have a great pairing
Not saying he's too small to play in the NHL, just giving the reason why he's considered a mid-first by some (which was the question). When you compare him to guys like Jones, Nurse, Ristolainen, Zadorov they're all 6'3"+. That's a big difference in size and weight potential.

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06-21-2013, 10:00 AM
  #640
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Morrissey definitely doesn't play small. He's one of the best open ice hitters and can throw a hip check real well.

In terms of defensive awareness and positioning, his defensive awareness is superb. The problem with positioning is that he can be a little to aggressive at times (both offensively and defensively), but that's something that can be addressed rather easily. As he matures, he'll pick his spots better.

He had a fantastic U18 tournament and I know the Flyers scouts pay a lot of attention to that tournament. Personally, I hope that Morrissey is the guy they draft. Gut feeling says that the defenseman they draft is either Rasmus Ristolainen (who I also think is a very, very, very good defenseman) or Samuel Morin (he has all the tools to be a great defender, but he's probably about 5 to 6 years away from making a real impact).
So would my Kronwall comparison be a decent projection? Around 6'0" 190-195. Solid defensively and a good open ice hitter that sometimes takes him out of position. Around 40-45 points a year.

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06-21-2013, 10:04 AM
  #641
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Not saying he's too small to play in the NHL, just giving the reason why he's considered a mid-first by some (which was the question). When you compare him to guys like Jones, Nurse, Ristolainen, Zadorov they're all 6'3"+. That's a big difference in size and weight potential.
Yea I know that you were not mocking Morrissey for it. I just think that size gets overrated a little too much. If there is someone who is average sized like him, but can skate and has shown good hockey sense there is no reason to let them slide in the draft. Look at Richards he wasn't/isn't great at any particular skill and is average height and weight but his hockey sense has made him one of the top two way forwards in the league with two cup finals appearances and a ring.

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06-21-2013, 10:15 AM
  #642
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Not saying he's too small to play in the NHL, just giving the reason why he's considered a mid-first by some (which was the question). When you compare him to guys like Jones, Nurse, Ristolainen, Zadorov they're all 6'3"+. That's a big difference in size and weight potential.
This is it. If you can get Chara, a guy who is 6'7 and is mobile (Zadorov/Morin) instead of Seidenberg, and all other things are considered equal, you take the big man.

If you think Morrissey is going to be as good as Timonen or Duncan Keith, it gives you pause to think.

I hope our scouts are ready, for the slight possibility that we actually use the 11th pick.....

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06-21-2013, 10:20 AM
  #643
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So would my Kronwall comparison be a decent projection? Around 6'0" 190-195. Solid defensively and a good open ice hitter that sometimes takes him out of position. Around 40-45 points a year.
I think Duncan Keith and Drew Doughty are better comparables for Morrissey. Kronwall is probably a more physical player than Morrissey. Another guy who Morrissey compares well to is Brian Rafalski.

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06-21-2013, 10:26 AM
  #644
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This is it. If you can get Chara, a guy who is 6'7 and is mobile (Zadorov/Morin) instead of Seidenberg, and all other things are considered equal, you take the big man.

If you think Morrissey is going to be as good as Timonen or Duncan Keith, it gives you pause to think.

I hope our scouts are ready, for the slight possibility that we actually use the 11th pick.....
You could always turn that around and say if you can get a Timonen or Rafalski you would take him over a Jeff Schultz (6'6") or Andrew Alberts (6'5") without hesitation.

The odds of Zadorov or Morin becoming a Chara are no better than Morrissey's odds of becoming a Rafalski. Personally, I think the player with the better all around skill set is more likely to be the more useful contributor at the NHL level. Size can be overcome, but lack of skill cannot.

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06-21-2013, 10:30 AM
  #645
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So would my Kronwall comparison be a decent projection? Around 6'0" 190-195. Solid defensively and a good open ice hitter that sometimes takes him out of position. Around 40-45 points a year.
As long as you don't expect the same caliber of kitting that Kronwall is notorious for. Morrissey can and will hit, but expecting him to be mentioned in the same breath as open ice hitters like Kronwall and Stevens is asking a little much.

Offense, defense, size, etc... Kronwall is a reasonable Morrissey comparison.

The other "knock" on Morrissey is that he hasn't actually produced at a level equal to his skill likely because he is a younger player in Juniors terms and hasn't developed physically as one might expect he will next season. Morrissey is also a guy that is on the longer end of distance from the NHL due to physical immaturity. Think 2016-2017 as an early debut timeline. As I always caveat when talking about Morrissey around these parts (as BCF is lurking), I love Morrissey... would be happy if we selected him, but am a little more centrist in my view of him relative to the players mentioned in the same breath (Pulock, Zad). I'm higher on Nurse and Risto, lower on Morin.

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06-21-2013, 10:51 AM
  #646
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My personal rankings for the D

1. Jones
2. Ristolainen
3. Morrissey
4. Nurse
5. Pulock
6. Zadorov
7. Mueller
8. McCoshen
9. Bigras
10. Morin

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06-21-2013, 11:21 AM
  #647
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As long as you don't expect the same caliber of kitting that Kronwall is notorious for. Morrissey can and will hit, but expecting him to be mentioned in the same breath as open ice hitters like Kronwall and Stevens is asking a little much.

Offense, defense, size, etc... Kronwall is a reasonable Morrissey comparison.

The other "knock" on Morrissey is that he hasn't actually produced at a level equal to his skill likely because he is a younger player in Juniors terms and hasn't developed physically as one might expect he will next season. Morrissey is also a guy that is on the longer end of distance from the NHL due to physical immaturity. Think 2016-2017 as an early debut timeline. As I always caveat when talking about Morrissey around these parts (as BCF is lurking), I love Morrissey... would be happy if we selected him, but am a little more centrist in my view of him relative to the players mentioned in the same breath (Pulock, Zad). I'm higher on Nurse and Risto, lower on Morin.
Hey, I'm a big fan of Morrissey, but I'm not going to dismiss the other defensemen available. I live in London and I've seen plenty of Zadorov and I really like the big guy. I think he's a team first guy and he'll accept whatever role he's put in just so that he can be a part of the team. Those kinds of players are critical for a team's success. I also think Zadorov has a lot of untapped offensive potential that will probably get developed this 2013- 2014 season in London. I'd be happy if he were to be a Flyer at the end of the day. I'll also admit that I'm not the biggest Pulock fan, but I recognize that there's serious talent there, especially when you consider that he made the jump to defense as a 15 year old. That's a huge learning curve and he's done considerably well.

There's one player that I'm not a big fan of at all and that's Hunter Shinkaruk. I see a guy who for some strange reason just coasted last year. It was his time to be "the man" and lead the Medicine Hat Tigers and he failed. His plus minus dropped by 30 points from the previous year, he scored 12 less goals and he just didn't seem to get better. To me, that's a huge red flag. You expect players to get better every year, but he really stepped back this year and I wonder if this is a "what you see is what you get" with Shinkaruk.

I will certainly admit that I'm a big Morrissey fan and to me, he really fits a big need in the Flyers prospect pool. I know people say "you always draft best available player" or "never draft for need", but this might be the one occasion that I would like to see the Flyers gamble a bit and maybe reach a little for the guy who is supposed to go later in the first.

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06-21-2013, 11:46 AM
  #648
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I know people say "you always draft best available player" or "never draft for need", but this might be the one occasion that I would like to see the Flyers gamble a bit and maybe reach a little for the guy who is supposed to go later in the first.
They will but it probably won't be for Morrissey. Samuel Morin says hello.

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06-21-2013, 12:05 PM
  #649
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I'my really trying not to get too worked up over who they pick one way or another. Drafting a dman early really is a crapshoot. Right now the Cup is being played by a team who doesn't have any homegrown dmen in their top 6 and another team who's number one was a 54th overall. No matter who we pick some people on here will bash Holmgren so I'll just hope for the best.

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06-21-2013, 12:08 PM
  #650
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I see a lot more of the OHL and Q than I do the WHL. Can anyone tell me why Morrissey is considered a late first by most projections? I see things like high hockey IQ, elite skating, tons of offensive skill, and good puck handling being tossed around. He has 90 PIM last year which, unless they were lazy penalties, makes me think that though he isnt big, that he has a bit of a nasty streak to him. He was also 3rd on the team in +/- which isnt an exact science obviously but if you're a bad defender it's unlikely you'll be near the top of your team. Basically what I'm asking is, whats the catch? By the way people talk about him, he sounds like someone that would be the 2nd or 3rd defenseman taken, not potentially the 7th or 8th.
The dude is small. If he were 2 or 3 inches taller that would help.

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