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2013 NHL Draft Discussion Thread - Part II

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Old
06-20-2013, 01:43 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by HoseEmDown View Post
I don't get everyone saying Barkov fits an organizational need. We have 2 elite centers already and a few solid prospects in the pipe. If we buy out Vinny next year then yes we would need a replacement but that's not guaranteed. Namestnikov if he continues to develope can be a solid 2C, Johnson a solid 3, Paquette looks like he can be a good pest and potential shut down player. We don't have any top 6 LW's in the system, Palat can potentially be a 2nd line winger but great 3rd. Drouin and Nish would be our best LW right away not just best prospects. We obviously need another top D but I don't see Jones being there at 3, so either LW would work for me.
Who's our second elite center? Surely, you do not truly think Vinny is still "elite".

There's a difference between solid center prospects and elite center prospects. Solid center prospects can fill in on the 3rd/4th lines or be transitioned to the wing on the 2nd line if they're skilled enough. Wingers do not have the same versatility to be as good at the C position.

Also, average pests with good defensive ability do not make for dependable 2nd line centers on SC contending teams. Once again, they are perfect for the third line (Lapierre, Bolland are examples, while Kelly/Sutter/Stoll are not really pests but are the similar types of 3rd line C).

Killorn is a top 6 LW, Panik can play both RW/LW and I'm sure Connolly and Kucherov could slot in at either side too. We have plenty of wingers, but no elite centers in our prospect pool.

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06-20-2013, 02:43 PM
  #77
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I say we draft Drouin and have Connolly or Johnson be our second center.

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06-20-2013, 02:47 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by EvanOberg View Post
I say we draft Drouin and have Connolly or Johnson be our second center.
Connolly's a winger and as of now there's no guarantee Johnson would turn into a capable #2 centre. In a few years maybe but he could max out as a great #3.

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06-20-2013, 02:54 PM
  #79
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I say we draft Drouin and have Connolly or Johnson be our second center.
Having Connolly play Center would be quite tragic. Nothing about his game in the AHL says solid two way game. Not like he's being used in those situations either. The AHL coaches know he's a liability defensively as compared to other forwards in Syracuse.

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06-20-2013, 03:05 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
Who's our second elite center? Surely, you do not truly think Vinny is still "elite".

There's a difference between solid center prospects and elite center prospects. Solid center prospects can fill in on the 3rd/4th lines or be transitioned to the wing on the 2nd line if they're skilled enough. Wingers do not have the same versatility to be as good at the C position.

Also, average pests with good defensive ability do not make for dependable 2nd line centers on SC contending teams. Once again, they are perfect for the third line (Lapierre, Bolland are examples, while Kelly/Sutter/Stoll are not really pests but are the similar types of 3rd line C).

Killorn is a top 6 LW, Panik can play both RW/LW and I'm sure Connolly and Kucherov could slot in at either side too. We have plenty of wingers, but no elite centers in our prospect pool.
Maybe Vinny is not elite to you but I see him as an elite player, second best 2C in the league. If he can stay healthy a full year he can be a PPG player.
So you don't think Namestnikov can be a 2C? I'm not saying he would bea top notch 2C but a reliable one. I also never said Paquette would be a 2C just saying he can potentially shut down a 2C or get under their skin.
I forgot about Killorn but still think he's a 2nd liner and not top line potential. Marty has switched wings with success but its not guaranteed the others can.
What I'm saying is Drouin and Nish are top line players and Barkov is a 2nd line player.

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06-20-2013, 03:21 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by zeykshade View Post
Having Connolly play Center would be quite tragic. Nothing about his game in the AHL says solid two way game. Not like he's being used in those situations either. The AHL coaches know he's a liability defensively as compared to other forwards in Syracuse.
Namestnikov??

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06-20-2013, 03:35 PM
  #82
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Don't mind getting any of Drouin, Barkov, or Jones. Nichuskin scares me. His statement of running back to the K if he doesn't get a roster spot puts me off.

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06-20-2013, 03:41 PM
  #83
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Namestnikov??
Yes, he was one of the forwards trusted in tight situations later in the season. He can do it all. The Crunch didn't have to use him on the PK, but next year will see him blossom I think. Just a matter of gaining muscle mass and keeping healthy. Bright future for that guy.

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06-20-2013, 03:49 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by MattM92 View Post
Man would I love to have a C like Bergeron. Is Barkov anything like him?
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
Lindholm or Monahan look like closer bets to become a shut down center like Bergeron than Barkov. I think Barkov has more offensive potential than Bergeron and obviously is not as adept defensively (yet anyway). However, he does flash good two-way potential and would be an ideal big bodied, 2nd line center.

From what I've seen, he really reminds me of Anze Kopitar. Above average skating, great balance, puck control, vision and the ability to become a top two-way talent.
To me, Barkov is at least to 3 forward defensively from this draft. Arguably the best two-way C in Finnish elite league this year.

Only thing he lacks is mean streak, little more explosive skating wouldn't hurt but considering everything, that isn't weakness imo but area of improvement.

Great positioning, basically all the time. Excellent stick work, battles around the boards hard and comes out as winner the most of the time, will block shots, excellent on pk. I recall one play last year where certain defender named Erik Karlsson had the puck on his stick on power play, in total control. Somehow, the forward managed to poke check it out of the zone. That was Barkov. I know it was just one play and such but he doesn't make much mistakes. Arguably the smartes player in FEL and possibly the smartest, or at least in top 5 for this draft (can't say I've seen too much of some other candidates). Also, if he was few weeks younger, he would be in 2014 draft, doesn't turn 18 until September.

If there is someone who projects as perennial Selke candidate from this draft, it's Barkov. Not saying he will be, but he has the tools for it. The most intriguing thing about Barkov imo isn't his size, or skill but how smart he is.

Kopitar is pretty good comparison, Joe Thornton of now is another.

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06-20-2013, 04:08 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by InjuredChoker View Post
To me, Barkov is at least to 3 forward defensively from this draft. Arguably the best two-way C in Finnish elite league this year.

Only thing he lacks is mean streak, little more explosive skating wouldn't hurt but considering everything, that isn't weakness imo but area of improvement.

Great positioning, basically all the time. Excellent stick work, battles around the boards hard and comes out as winner the most of the time, will block shots, excellent on pk. I recall one play last year where certain defender named Erik Karlsson had the puck on his stick on power play, in total control. Somehow, the forward managed to poke check it out of the zone. That was Barkov. I know it was just one play and such but he doesn't make much mistakes. Arguably the smartes player in FEL and possibly the smartest, or at least in top 5 for this draft (can't say I've seen too much of some other candidates). Also, if he was few weeks younger, he would be in 2014 draft, doesn't turn 18 until September.

If there is someone who projects as perennial Selke candidate from this draft, it's Barkov. Not saying he will be, but he has the tools for it. The most intriguing thing about Barkov imo isn't his size, or skill but how smart he is.

Kopitar is pretty good comparison, Joe Thornton of now is another.
I should clarify. When I said Barkov doesn't project to be like Bergeron, I meant he has the potential to be more than just a 2C, shutdown type like Bergeron. Lindholm and Monahan have lower offensive ceilings, which is why I believe they have a better chance to become like Bergeron. I just made the Kopitar comparison before that of Joe Thornton of now because I've always felt Joe is a little more physical than Barkov, while Kopitar relies more on instinct and intelligence like Barkov does.

I would say Lindholm is right in contention with Barkov for most intelligent in this draft. He's also incredibly mature for his age and excels in all three zones and has already shown shutdown potential, while also producing very well offensively in the Elitserien. However, in the top 5, most intelligent would have to go to either Drouin or Barkov imo.

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06-20-2013, 04:20 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by HoseEmDown View Post
Maybe Vinny is not elite to you but I see him as an elite player, second best 2C in the league. If he can stay healthy a full year he can be a PPG player.
So you don't think Namestnikov can be a 2C? I'm not saying he would bea top notch 2C but a reliable one. I also never said Paquette would be a 2C just saying he can potentially shut down a 2C or get under their skin.
I forgot about Killorn but still think he's a 2nd liner and not top line potential. Marty has switched wings with success but its not guaranteed the others can.
What I'm saying is Drouin and Nish are top line players and Barkov is a 2nd line player.
I can't argue who is elite or not in terms of your view, but I can say with confidence that Vinny is not seen as an elite C across the league by fans of other teams, and for the most part, even our own.

There's centers in the category of a M.Richards, Krejci, J.Staal, M.Koivu, Stepan, Kesler etc. whom are all good to very good centers but better off in second line roles and can't quite produce at an elite level. Then, there are those that could be elite but are either regressing or still have to prove themselves to be consistent like Duchene, E.Staal, Toews, J.Thornton, Bergeron etc. For me, Vinny falls somewhere between the aforementioned two categories, especially when you consider the elite centers to me are Datsyuk, Crosby, Zetterberg, Giroux, Stamkos, Tavares, Getzlaf, Malkin, Kopitar etc.

In no way would I argue against drafting Drouin (if you couldn't tell from my avatar and custom user title), but I do think a winger is a position of luxury, rather than need. In addition, there are more teams looking for centers via trade than wingers and that is something that will always remain fairly consistent. You'll get more value in drafting a center in general and it so happens to be a position we are fairly light in within our prospect pool.

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06-20-2013, 04:44 PM
  #87
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Don't mind getting any of Drouin, Barkov, or Jones. Nichuskin scares me. His statement of running back to the K if he doesn't get a roster spot puts me off.
I get that. But according to a poster on page 3 of this thread, Barkov has said pretty much the same thing about going back to Finland if he doesn't get an NHL spot. Don't know the source, but if he did in fact say that, I'm not going to give him any more of a pass than Nichuskin gets.

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06-20-2013, 05:26 PM
  #88
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What's more astonishing is Drouin's Q production compared to Mac's in less games played.

Drouin - 82 career games, 48 goals and 134 points
MacKinnon - 102 career games, 63 goals and 153 points

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06-20-2013, 08:55 PM
  #89
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What exactly is wrong with VL as the #2 C??
And how do you pass on the consensus top 3 of the draft?

I don't watch these kids play, but from the information I know, why take the additional risks of drafting Nichushkin, or draft another center in Barkov?

Ideally, Jones drafts to #3, you say thank you, pair him next to Hedman, and go collect a Stanley Cup.

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06-20-2013, 09:16 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by stryfe604 View Post
Don't mind getting any of Drouin, Barkov, or Jones. Nichuskin scares me. His statement of running back to the K if he doesn't get a roster spot puts me off.
As albatross says a couple of posts ago, Barkov said the same thing. And to be fair to Nichushkin (Barkov may be in the same boat but I'm not sure) he has an agreement with his KHL team that he has to return if he doesn't make the NHL. Probably an agreement made when voiding his contract.

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06-20-2013, 10:26 PM
  #91
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What exactly is wrong with VL as the #2 C??
Did someone say that there was something wrong with VL as the #2C or is it just your imagination?

I think it's the latter.

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06-20-2013, 10:26 PM
  #92
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I get that. But according to a poster on page 3 of this thread, Barkov has said pretty much the same thing about going back to Finland if he doesn't get an NHL spot. Don't know the source, but if he did in fact say that, I'm not going to give him any more of a pass than Nichuskin gets.
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As albatross says a couple of posts ago, Barkov said the same thing. And to be fair to Nichushkin (Barkov may be in the same boat but I'm not sure) he has an agreement with his KHL team that he has to return if he doesn't make the NHL. Probably an agreement made when voiding his contract.
Who is the source on Barkov? If Barkov has said the same thing, I would stick to Drouin. I don't think Barkov or Nichuskin can break the line up next season. TJ will take the third line C and Nichuskin in my opinion won't break our line up.

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06-20-2013, 10:30 PM
  #93
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Who is the source on Barkov? If Barkov has said the same thing, I would stick to Drouin. I don't think Barkov or Nichuskin can break the line up next season. TJ will take the third line C and Nichuskin in my opinion won't break our line up.
Found it!

http://www.iltalehti.fi/nhl/2013061917176310_nh.shtml

Quote:
Barkov is valid for the following two year contract with Tappara, but the NHL can not be called a man as early as next season. He has a contract the NHL section, which allows for a buck ice transition.



- Depends on a lot of me in the company of varanneesta pelaanko for next season in the NHL. If you would like to follow me to the NHL for next season, so I'm ready to go. But if you place the NHL is not possible to give an undertaking as I play Tappara the next season.

A lot of young players is searching kannuksiaan North American farmisarjoista before NHL career finally opens. Barkov asserts that he was not playing farmisarjassa option for HIFK-Pact.

- I play Tappara, the place NHL does not come, he says.
It looks somewhat similar to the Nichuskin situation. He's under contract to his club for next season, but there's an NHL out.

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06-20-2013, 10:49 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by albatross View Post
Found it!

http://www.iltalehti.fi/nhl/2013061917176310_nh.shtml



It looks somewhat similar to the Nichuskin situation. He's under contract to his club for next season, but there's an NHL out.
In that case, shift all attention back to the original top 3.

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06-20-2013, 11:10 PM
  #95
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Found it!

http://www.iltalehti.fi/nhl/2013061917176310_nh.shtml



It looks somewhat similar to the Nichuskin situation. He's under contract to his club for next season, but there's an NHL out.
Can't say this really bothers me that much for either player. Just sounds like their club teams are trying to protect their investments, which is fair.

The things that bother me about Nichushkin are his perceived on-ice selfishness, the rumors of a miserable combine and the organizational fit. Those aren't things that are working against Barky Bark.

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06-21-2013, 12:04 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by 2 Weekes Notice View Post
Can't say this really bothers me that much for either player. Just sounds like their club teams are trying to protect their investments, which is fair.

The things that bother me about Nichushkin are his perceived on-ice selfishness, the rumors of a miserable combine and the organizational fit. Those aren't things that are working against Barky Bark.

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06-21-2013, 12:57 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by 2 Weekes Notice View Post
Can't say this really bothers me that much for either player. Just sounds like their club teams are trying to protect their investments, which is fair.

The things that bother me about Nichushkin are his perceived on-ice selfishness, the rumors of a miserable combine and the organizational fit. Those aren't things that are working against Barky Bark.
Another thing about Barkov and Nichushkin is they don't really need to step into the NHL at age 18. With the amount of good forwards we have in Syracuse, it's ok if either of those players happen to stay in Europe for a year or 2. We know Yzerman is patient with prospects and we pick players that we think will project well in a few years over immediate help. Even if it's Drouin, we might hold off and have him play another year in Halifax to get stronger, work on his game, and see how he does with a bigger leadership role.

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06-21-2013, 05:37 AM
  #98
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In that case, shift all attention back to the original top 3.
Why? With Johnson, Panik, Palat, (Connolly) pushing for a top-6 / top-9 job with the Lightning do we really need our 2013 draftee to step into the lineup right away? Connolly played with the Lightning a year after he was drafted and only because we couldn't send him to the AHL yet. Namestnikov is still at least a year away too. And you'll have to wait for Koekkoek and Vasilevski even longer. So why the rush?

Quote:
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Can't say this really bothers me that much for either player. Just sounds like their club teams are trying to protect their investments, which is fair.
Exactly.

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Originally Posted by 2 Weekes Notice View Post
The things that bother me about Nichushkin are his perceived on-ice selfishness, the rumors of a miserable combine and the organizational fit. Those aren't things that are working against Barky Bark.
This is what I don't get. For years now and even during last season many around here were asking for more toughness, physicality, grit, size. Apparently that's also the way Cooper wants his team to be and play. How is a 6'4, 200+ lbs and agile player with smooth hands not an organizational fit (or not a fit for any organization for that matter)? Especially with a Malone trade/buyout looming and the team's need for size and physical presence - and especially with the upcoming realignment? Things are not going to be easier having to play all those much grittier teams from the NE.

Again, I'm not saying "draft Nichushkin or bust", I just don't get how some of my fellow Lightning fans would rather trade our #3 pick before they'd even consider drafting a player with size, speed and soft hands. If, for those reasons, he's the BPA in the eyes of Yzerman and the scouting staff so be it. Maybe some of you are too attached to "our depth in Syracuse". It's possible Yzerman has already decided to ship one or two of our wingers out to adress our thin blueline. The only concern I share with you are his personal motivation and attitude. But since we don't speak Russian and everything we hear and read is hearsay and mostly taken out of context I'll trust Yzerman & Co. to make the right decision.

My personal priority list:
Jones
Drouin
MacKinnon
Nichushkin
Barkov


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06-21-2013, 09:32 AM
  #99
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This is what I don't get. For years now and even during last season many around here were asking for more toughness, physicality, grit, size. Apparently that's also the way Cooper wants his team to be and play. How is a 6'4, 200+ lbs and agile player with smooth hands not an organizational fit (or not a fit for any organization for that matter)? Especially with a Malone trade/buyout looming and the team's need for size and physical presence - and especially with the upcoming realignment? Things are not going to be easier having to play all those much grittier teams from the NE.

Again, I'm not saying "draft Nichushkin or bust", I just don't get how some of my fellow Lightning fans would rather trade our #3 pick before they'd even consider drafting a player with size, speed and soft hands. If, for those reasons, he's the BPA in the eyes of Yzerman and the scouting staff so be it. Maybe some of you are too attached to "our depth in Syracuse". It's possible Yzerman has already decided to ship one or two of our wingers out to adress our thin blueline. The only concern I share with you are his personal motivation and attitude. But since we don't speak Russian and everything we hear and read is hearsay and mostly taken out of context I'll trust Yzerman & Co. to make the right decision.

My personal priority list:
Jones
Drouin
MacKinnon
Nichushkin
Barkov
Why is it so hard to understand? Just because a player has size, does not make him a good fit. Nichushkin is not really physical and doesn't play with a warrior like mentality. He gets away with a lot and is able to dominate at times because of his size, but that's what scares me the most - players who primarily use their size to stand out at lower levels often have a more difficult time in the NHL when players are just as strong and fast.

In addition, in the viewings I've had, he's a very selfish player who doesn't make those around him better or use his teammates enough, if at all at times. We're not devoid of scoring wingers either, so really the only need he fills is one of size.

Barkov, on the other hand, makes players around him better, has size and plays at an integral position of need for any team. SC teams are built on center depth and Barkov makes us harder to play against, while also being able to elevate the play of others around him.

Same goes for Drouin in terms of making those around him better. He doesn't have the size of the aforementioned two, but if we're going with a winger, at least he's a fit alongside Stamkos as a playmaking LW.

Our priority should be:

1) Defense (Jones if he's still on the board, in which case he should be BPA)
2) BPA forward (Mac, Drouin, Barkov, Nichushkin in that order)
3) Center
4) Winger

Thus, Nichushkin ranks at the bottom of my list of priorities, especially in the top 5.

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06-21-2013, 10:17 AM
  #100
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Did someone say that there was something wrong with VL as the #2C or is it just your imagination?

I think it's the latter.
Dude, you listed an 18 year old rookie over V4, and im simply asking why. No need to get salty and split hairs over what I thought you were implying.

So what is your justification?

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