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Old
06-21-2013, 01:21 PM
  #951
Perfect_Drug
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Originally Posted by SephF View Post
I'm curious what the settings are like for these pics... is the PC graphics settings cranked or is it on default?
Max system specs for Crysis 2.

3 miiight be a big different, but I can't find anything except bull-shots.
(Actual comparisons of in-game WITH the actual UI there and aren't heavily photoshopped).


:/


Truth is (I am working on a next-gen title), the returns are VERY diminishing. Polycount and texture space were hardly a problem during most 360/PS3 games I've worked on. So cranking that up really does yield diminishing returns.

The BIG thing next-gen offers is true 1080p... which is really only detectable in a side by side comparison on televisions that are over 50". So once again a negligible return for 400% rendering.

I mean some of the stuff is: Do you think consumers can tell the difference between REALTIME Global illumination? over how artists fake it? I mean sure to a few people that really nitpick and take a look at images side by side, they might be able to point out a few things here n' there, but truth be told, it's MILLIONS of dollars being spent on tech that nobody really sees.

Not to mention the BIGGEST issue of them all:

There simply are not good enough artists right now to make ample use of the tech. There's an immense talent drain in this industry. I don't mean the 342453242 kids that want to break into the industry. I mean there is a massive drought in seasoned artists that are actually capable. (Outsourcing delivers very questionable results, yet we are relying on them more and more to deliver assets on budget).

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06-21-2013, 01:58 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
Max system specs for Crysis 2.

3 miiight be a big different, but I can't find anything except bull-shots.
(Actual comparisons of in-game WITH the actual UI there and aren't heavily photoshopped).


:/


Truth is (I am working on a next-gen title), the returns are VERY diminishing. Polycount and texture space were hardly a problem during most 360/PS3 games I've worked on. So cranking that up really does yield diminishing returns.

The BIG thing next-gen offers is true 1080p... which is really only detectable in a side by side comparison on televisions that are over 50". So once again a negligible return for 400% rendering.

I mean some of the stuff is: Do you think consumers can tell the difference between REALTIME Global illumination? over how artists fake it? I mean sure to a few people that really nitpick and take a look at images side by side, they might be able to point out a few things here n' there, but truth be told, it's MILLIONS of dollars being spent on tech that nobody really sees.

Not to mention the BIGGEST issue of them all:

There simply are not good enough artists right now to make ample use of the tech. There's an immense talent drain in this industry. I don't mean the 342453242 kids that want to break into the industry. I mean there is a massive drought in seasoned artists that are actually capable. (Outsourcing delivers very questionable results, yet we are relying on them more and more to deliver assets on budget).
While I don't doubt theres a lack of seasoned talents in the gaming industry, I do wonder if thats the result of a highly volatile industry with a high turnover rate. In addition, it seems like quality control in games have gone down since you can now update games in patches online. Infact, its almost like you can release an unfinished game and finish it later through patches.

As your a person in the gaming industry, what do you think about the decrease in quality control (atleast as seen from a consumer)? I figure alot of it has to do with budgets and spending a large amount on making the best eye candy, as alot of new games tend to be pretty, but not very fun to play now.

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06-21-2013, 02:04 PM
  #953
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Perfect Drug, not that I don't believe you, but where exactly do you work? You're saying some things that aren't tracking with the day to day reality of someone who works with games, IMO.

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06-21-2013, 02:21 PM
  #954
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Ahh sorry.

I have to say my opinions are my own completely, and not my studio or publisher.

I work for Eidos Square Enix. And yeah, I'm not posting on here as a rep of theirs, they just sign my cheques.

fysloc: Yeah, a LOT of it simply has to do with outsourcing. I've had to move from Edmonton to Van, to LA, to Montreal. Not an easy thing to do now that I'm pushing middle age and have more people to feed.

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06-21-2013, 02:49 PM
  #955
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Originally Posted by EchoesoftheEighties View Post
Not everyone likes signing up for stuff. Especially stuff you're not going to use ever. I repeat, I AM NOT A PC GAMER. Therefore none of those are beneficial to me.
Don't you have to sign up for XBL and PS+ as well?

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06-21-2013, 02:58 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
So.

The Xbone and PS4 are the exact same thing again?



I love paying $900 for 2 consoles that give a marginal graphical update!!

http://techasino.blogspot.ca/2011/03...son-shots.html



/sarcasm
Im not sure if youre trying to compare the old consoles to the new ones, or consoles to pc, but Im having a really rough time buying it.

Youre suggesting 8 years of graphical processing advancement has little gain?

Sure, if a game is designed for console and the port to pc is ******, there may not be much of a difference (Borderlands 2 perhaps). However, playing skyrim on xbox360, then going to my gaming laptop is a HUGE difference, even if it's on the same screen.

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06-21-2013, 03:32 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Neatman View Post
Im not sure if youre trying to compare the old consoles to the new ones, or consoles to pc, but Im having a really rough time buying it.

Youre suggesting 8 years of graphical processing advancement has little gain?

Sure, if a game is designed for console and the port to pc is ******, there may not be much of a difference (Borderlands 2 perhaps). However, playing skyrim on xbox360, then going to my gaming laptop is a HUGE difference, even if it's on the same screen.
The jump from DirectX 7 (PS2) to DirectX 9 (PS3/360) was exponential. It was an astronomical gain that completely changed paradigms about lighting, and shader models.

The jump from DirectX 9 to DirectX 11 is very incremental.
Skyrim from Xbox360 to PC would be a great example of the gains, but it wasn't exactly at the highest end of what was achievable on the Xbox 360.

Next-Gen is equivalent to a low/mid gaming PC.

The jump from 480p to 720p was MASSIVE
The jump from 720p to 1080p is hardly noticeable unless they're compared side by side on a 50" TV.

Same goes for how a lot of the art is made.
The jump from Faked Global Illumination to Real-time Global illumination probably won't even be noticed, but will have costed millions to implement. Slightly crisper shadows, and maybe a few extra post-processes.



I would LOVE to be proven wrong though.


Last edited by Perfect_Drug: 06-21-2013 at 03:37 PM.
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06-21-2013, 04:51 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
The jump from DirectX 7 (PS2) to DirectX 9 (PS3/360) was exponential. It was an astronomical gain that completely changed paradigms about lighting, and shader models.

The jump from DirectX 9 to DirectX 11 is very incremental.
Skyrim from Xbox360 to PC would be a great example of the gains, but it wasn't exactly at the highest end of what was achievable on the Xbox 360.

Next-Gen is equivalent to a low/mid gaming PC.

The jump from 480p to 720p was MASSIVE
The jump from 720p to 1080p is hardly noticeable unless they're compared side by side on a 50" TV.

Same goes for how a lot of the art is made.
The jump from Faked Global Illumination to Real-time Global illumination probably won't even be noticed, but will have costed millions to implement. Slightly crisper shadows, and maybe a few extra post-processes.



I would LOVE to be proven wrong though.
Im certainly in no position to argue with you as my only experience with graphics in games comes from playing them . I do appreciate all the insight as I find it very interesting.

I was just incredulous of your claim that 720p and 1080p are tough to distinguish as often when I boot up a game for the first time, my computer defaults it to 720p (albiet with other setting lowered as well) and I just go "wtf, this looks terrible". Then after switching to 1080p and pulling up the other settings it looks fantastic. I suppose the differences are much easier for me to notice with my face a foot from my screen than they would be for someone playing on a console from 10 feet away.

Just out of curiosity (this maybe an awkward question, but Im not sure how to word it), what is it about having a better GPU that makes the biggest difference in how a game looks? Im just thinking specifically of how I think games look way better on a high end desktop rig than even on my laptop, let alone a console.

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Old
06-22-2013, 02:30 AM
  #959
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**** Nunu.

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Old
06-22-2013, 11:30 AM
  #960
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New system article

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/ouyas-99-vi...224031661.html

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Old
06-22-2013, 12:25 PM
  #961
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Ouya seems like a complete gimmick/niche console to me. No interest whatsoever on my part.

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Old
06-22-2013, 06:09 PM
  #962
SK13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
The jump from DirectX 7 (PS2) to DirectX 9 (PS3/360) was exponential. It was an astronomical gain that completely changed paradigms about lighting, and shader models.
The jump to fully customizable graphics was significant. Diminishing returns are definitely in effect, but I think you're underselling the impact of IQ and general visual fidelity.



Simply taking Wii games, developed on DX7 equivalent hardware, and rendering them in HD on Dolphin is huge in and of itself.

Quote:
The jump from DirectX 9 to DirectX 11 is very incremental.
Skyrim from Xbox360 to PC would be a great example of the gains, but it wasn't exactly at the highest end of what was achievable on the Xbox 360.
Almost nothing has been developed on DX11 hardware exclusively. Even games like Crysis 3 were developed with DX9 hardware in mind.

Quote:
Next-Gen is equivalent to a low/mid gaming PC.
This comparison never works. Consoles are closed boxes; way less overhead. If you tried to install Crysis 3 on a computer with equivalent specs to the Xbox 360, it would laugh at you and explode at the same time.

Quote:
The jump from 480p to 720p was MASSIVE
The jump from 720p to 1080p is hardly noticeable unless they're compared side by side on a 50" TV.
The untrained eye may not care to see a difference unless they're shown side-by-side, but the difference is massive - especially with when you consider how much aliasing is cleaned up.

Quote:
Same goes for how a lot of the art is made.
The jump from Faked Global Illumination to Real-time Global illumination probably won't even be noticed, but will have costed millions to implement. Slightly crisper shadows, and maybe a few extra post-processes.

I would LOVE to be proven wrong though.
The biggest gap we're seeing right now is in the rendering of open worlds, physics and general fidelity and IQ. It's enough for even the layman gamer to see the gap.

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Old
06-23-2013, 12:21 AM
  #963
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**** Nunu.
I agree I hate that POS

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Old
06-23-2013, 01:31 AM
  #964
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I agree I hate that POS

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Old
06-23-2013, 02:17 AM
  #965
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Oh I find it easy to believe that it could just become active from that phrase and never be malicious about it. It would also be very easy for it to send in a little snippet every time it hears "bomb" or "terrorist" or "911" however unlikely it is.

Just as you shouldn't be going all conspiracy theory on the "always listening" thing, you shouldn't 100% believe that Microsoft will never sell you out now or in the future.

Quite honestly maybe recording everything is in our best interests. If they want to watch me in my skivvies throwing a tantrum while playing twelve year olds in NHLxx, then so be it

Kinda puts all this video game stuff into perspective....doesn't it!

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Old
06-24-2013, 04:35 PM
  #966
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Ouya is such a hipster piece of **** hahaha
It lets you play games, of smartphone quality, on your TV basically.

WOW

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06-24-2013, 06:11 PM
  #967
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Wow, just finished The Last of Us. It was incredible. Highly recommend it.

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06-24-2013, 08:38 PM
  #968
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Wow, just finished The Last of Us. It was incredible. Highly recommend it.
Finished it about a week ago. It ended with my girlfriend screaming, "NO. THAT'S NOT THE ENDING I WANTED."

I laughed so hard.

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06-24-2013, 09:52 PM
  #969
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Finished it about a week ago. It ended with my girlfriend screaming, "NO. THAT'S NOT THE ENDING I WANTED."

I laughed so hard.
Haha awesome. It didn't end how I thought it would, but that's a good thing. I didn't know what was going to happen in the last leg of the game.

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06-24-2013, 10:06 PM
  #970
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Wow, just finished The Last of Us. It was incredible. Highly recommend it.
So...worth me buying a PS3 for? There are other games I'd get too, but I bought XBOX260 for Bioshock and I don't regret it... TLOU just looks so incredible..

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06-24-2013, 10:17 PM
  #971
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So...worth me buying a PS3 for? There are other games I'd get too, but I bought XBOX260 for Bioshock and I don't regret it... TLOU just looks so incredible..
I don't know if I would buy a console just for one game but if there are others you are interested in and you have the money to spare, then yes!! It was awesome! If you like good stories, characters, third-person shooters, then this is the game for you.

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06-25-2013, 01:50 PM
  #972
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SK13

You are absolutely correct about pretty much everything. The culmination of EVERYTHING can give a pretty decent increase, especially in open worlds.

But IMHO most of the gains that are noticeable are in the ability of the artists, and art direction. And I think we're hitting a hard wall pretty soon with talent drain.

Add onto that higher consumer expectations, and graphical demands, in shorter turnaround times, with smaller budgets. Studio's already have trouble retaining top end talent, many of them are just leaving the industry.

During the PS2 days, It took me a week to make a character. ON the 360/PS3 days, it takes me a month. Working on nextgen, well... I'm now asked to do 400% more attention to details on textures, create 12+ different textures and texture masks up from 4.

Games still cost $60, and we're certainly not selling 4x the units from PS2, despite nearly 400% increase in development budgets.


CliffyB really gave a rant that IMHO hit the nail on the head:
http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/

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06-25-2013, 02:10 PM
  #973
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The industry (particularly in the west) seems to need to learn how to keep their wallet in their pants every once in a while...

The mid-tier game doesn't exist in America anymore. Probably time to consider bringing those back. Why spend 65+ million on Kingdoms of Amalur? Recognize that it's generic and give it an appropriate budget.

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Old
06-25-2013, 02:34 PM
  #974
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The industry (particularly in the west) seems to need to learn how to keep their wallet in their pants every once in a while...

The mid-tier game doesn't exist in America anymore. Probably time to consider bringing those back. Why spend 65+ million on Kingdoms of Amalur? Recognize that it's generic and give it an appropriate budget.
It's simply not as easy as you might think.

This is VERY low wage, for low production costs, on a low-budget game:
http://kotaku.com/5986592/it-will-bl...-fighting-game

To add a character in this game:
http://images.g4tv.com/rimg_606x0/Im...creenshots.png

So.. what would KoA do?
Have crappier looking art?
Smaller/Shorter game?
Don't go with Orchestral sound, and bad voice actors?
Worse animations?
Cut some key features?
Cut back on QA so there's a lot more bugs?

Keep in mind, that game scored an 81 on Metacritic, which is a VERY respectable score. Each feature you cut might subtract 5% from that score.

And data shows, there is a DIRECT correlation between these kinds of games, and meta-score.



But yeah.. a LOT Of industry figures believe everything WILL be shifting to tablet/casual.

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06-25-2013, 02:36 PM
  #975
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The marketing budgets for a lot of games is bigger than the budget to make the game, that's the problem.

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