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06-21-2013, 02:37 PM
  #826
Eddie Shack
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Originally Posted by mattihp View Post
Because we all know that Kimmo Timonen who shot down tiny, physically weak fringe forward Alex Ovechkin some years ago in the playoffs (where things rarely get physical) is a huge physical monster. Isn't he like 6-5 or something?



If anything will keep this student of the game from being effective defensively it is his centre of gravity. He should work on getting it to be much lower so that he can actually get in some good hits other than hip checks.

You really need to keep your patriotism out of his evaluation. Small players always have a tougher time making the NHL. It's especially true for defensemen. Every once in a while somebody does. Most don't. I'm willing to give Sami a chance. Unfortunately people like you insist we accept it as a given or else be viewed as a hater. I'm really tired of this attitude. This is the poison that this topic has become.

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06-21-2013, 03:33 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by mattihp View Post
Because we all know that Kimmo Timonen who shot down tiny, physically weak fringe forward Alex Ovechkin some years ago in the playoffs (where things rarely get physical) is a huge physical monster. Isn't he like 6-5 or something?



If anything will keep this student of the game from being effective defensively it is his centre of gravity. He should work on getting it to be much lower so that he can actually get in some good hits other than hip checks.
Wait, what?

Is this the same series where Ovechkin scored 4 goals and 9 points in 7 games?

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06-21-2013, 05:17 PM
  #828
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I agree with you, that his defensive game isn't as bad as some are making it out to be. At the same time, I don't think his offensive game was as impressive as some are suggesting. Realistically, I think he fell somewhere in the middle. Offensively, he wasn't as good as some are suggesting, and defensively he wasn't as bad. There's a lot of exaggeration on both sides. The 8 game sample size doesn't help, either, because every good thing he did, or every bad thing he did, seems magnified.

As for the Pronger example, I'm not too keen on that comparison. I know you weren't comparing them directly, but Pronger more than made up for those mistakes over the course of a season. At this point, it's just too early to say where Vatanen's risk vs. reward ratio falls, especially considering the sheltered nature of his ice time. Like DVM said, he hasn't proven anything yet. How does he do with more minutes? How does he do with tougher minutes, against tougher teams? He had a fairly easy 8 games, all things considered. It really isn't going to get easier, and that's where Sami has to prove himself. I think Sami will be just fine, but a little context is important.
In his second stint, he showed he has the ability to be a real weapon on the PP and I thought his breakouts were excellent as well. He showed flashes of his offensive brilliance 5 on 5, but he was a bit too timid to really show off.

As you said, 8 games isn't enough to really draw from, but I'm also basing my opinion of him on his play down in the AHL, where he was phenomenal offensively and got a lot better defensively as the year went along.

I'm sure you already know this, but I wasn't in any way shape or form comparing Vatanen to Pronger, I was merely pointing out that getting beat 1 on 1 doesn't mean someone is awful defensively and I used Pronger as my example because Pronger was one of the best defenders in the league, but did have a tendency to get beat 1 on 1.

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06-21-2013, 05:48 PM
  #829
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I guess I didn't see the flashes of brilliance offensively at even strength. He didn't seem to use the speed that he was touted to have, and he didn't seem particularly dangerous. Part of it, I agree, was him being timid but I also think it is part of playing in the NHL.

His high octane and high risk style is really not an ideal game for the NHL, and it was always my assumption that he would need to be more conservative and pick his spots better. That doesn't mean the Ducks are going to want to turn him into a defense-first player, and he should always be an offensive guy, but it seems pretty clear he needed to make adjustments to fit the NHL game. He can't just be a 4th forward out there, and he can't just take risks with impunity, because he'll get burned. I absolutely expect to see more of that offense from him as he move on, but it really feels like his offense is being overrated. It feels like he's being talked about as some elite offensive player(instead of being having elite offensive talent, which isn't the same thing at all), with some assumption that it will overshadow any potential defensive issues, but he didn't exactly look the part on the ice at even strength. The PP aspect was very encouraging, and I agree with you that he looks like he belongs there.

Oh, I know. Pronger had a tendency to get caught flat-footed at times one-on-one. On the other hand, when it came to the positional game and just overall defense, he was a stud. My point was more that Pronger, even getting beat 1 on 1 at times, was still one of the best defensemen in the league. In my opinion, a player isn't great because they don't make mistakes(every player does), but because they are so good that their mistakes just can't overshadow everything else they bring. In Sami's case, I think we all expect his offense to overshadow those types of mistakes, but in an 8 game sample size and based on what Sami was doing on the ice, he certainly isn't at that point yet. They don't make or break him, by any means, but I do think they impact his perceived contributions a bit. For now. Give him another off-season, and a chance to play a full season, and I think that will change. I think we'll get a better read on him, and see more where his average falls.

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06-21-2013, 07:00 PM
  #830
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I don't really have much concern with his size. As long as he figures out his positioning he's going to be fine defensively. He's still getting stronger and smarter. Look at Lubo...he was very solid in his own zone despite being only 5'10. His height won't be that big of an issue as long as he puts on muscle. He isn't that much smaller than Shatty/Voynov. Maybe a couple inches.

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07-05-2013, 07:59 PM
  #831
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
I don't really have much concern with his size. As long as he figures out his positioning he's going to be fine defensively. He's still getting stronger and smarter. Look at Lubo...he was very solid in his own zone despite being only 5'10. His height won't be that big of an issue as long as he puts on muscle. He isn't that much smaller than Shatty/Voynov. Maybe a couple inches.
Almost certain Vats will get a lot more time next season per Murray!

On the depth on defense.

"I’m going to force the issue on Sami Vatanen. I wanted him to play more last year. I want to give him a good, hard look. [Hampus] Lindholm, he’s only going to be 19 years old, but he was really coming gangbusters".

With a very hard argument by other NHL's teams and other leagues. We have the best prospect pool in the world. Something we should be thankful of. I can't wait for training camp! Decisions Decisions BB!!! Bring on the Vats Machine baby!

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07-05-2013, 09:20 PM
  #832
KEEROLE Vatanen
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so even the GM of the team was mad he didn't play more last year.......

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07-05-2013, 09:21 PM
  #833
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It's the GM of the team's fault. He's the one who signed Souray and Allen and acquired Lovejoy. They are more established and were producing more results.

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07-05-2013, 09:22 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by KEEROLE Vatanen View Post
so even the GM of the team was mad he didn't play more last year.......
I suppose if you squint really hard, then sure. You could come to that conclusion. On the other hand, considering Murray is the one who brought in Souray, Allen, and Lovejoy, I think it more likely that he probably understood the circumstances.

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07-05-2013, 09:23 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I suppose if you squint really hard, then sure. You could come to that conclusion. On the other hand, considering Murray is the one who brought in Souray, Allen, and Lovejoy, I think it more likely that he probably understood the circumstances.
He wanted him to play more, and is going to set the roster up so the coach HAS to play him
What do you make of that?

Just furthers my belief he should have been playing in the playoffs

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07-05-2013, 09:24 PM
  #836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEEROLE Vatanen View Post
He wanted him to play more, and is going to set the roster up so the coach HAS to play him
What do you make of that?

Just furthers my belief he should have been playing in the playoffs
I suppose that, what I make of it, is that you're trying really hard to put words into Murray's mouth.

To be clear, here is what Murray actually said:

Quote:
On the depth on defense,
I’m going to force the issue on Sami Vatanen. I wanted him to play more last year. I want to give him a good, hard look. [Hampus] Lindholm, he’s only going to be 19 years old, but he was really coming gangbusters.
GM wants to give talented defenseman a good, hard look.

Shocking.


Last edited by Sojourn: 07-05-2013 at 09:55 PM.
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07-05-2013, 09:53 PM
  #837
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Ohhh LOL!!!!

DaDucks wins again

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07-05-2013, 10:01 PM
  #838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I suppose that, what I make of it, is that you're trying really hard to put words into Murray's mouth.

To be clear, here is what Murray actually said:



GM wants to give talented defenseman a good, hard look.

Shocking.
I'm putting words in his mouth?
KRV positions last season: Vatanen should be playing more
GM's position: Vatanen should be playing more

It's easy to surmise, he wasn't happy that the coach didn't want to play him more

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07-05-2013, 10:07 PM
  #839
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Bob Murray wanted him to get a shot but the shortened season prevented BB from giving him a long hard look because of the increased importance of games? .. thats all i got out of that

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07-05-2013, 10:09 PM
  #840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEEROLE Vatanen View Post
I'm putting words in his mouth?
KRV positions last season: Vatanen should be playing more
GM's position: Vatanen should be playing more

It's easy to surmise, he wasn't happy that the coach didn't want to play him more
Here's a few facts for you: Ben Lovejoy was acquired after Vatanen had already played 2 games in the NHL. Sami played his 3rd game and final game(until his second call up) on the very day that Lovejoy was acquired from Pittsburgh.

If Murray was so unhappy that Vatanen wasn't getting playing time (in Anaheim) then why was that decision made? Furthermore, why didn't Murray make an attempt to move a defenseman to create space for Vatanen? Your conclusion is lacking in actual facts. What I surmise is that Murray would have liked to see Vatanen play more, but the situation just wasn't there, probably because of the shortened season. Sami will get a nice look at training camp, and probably have a chance to show he belongs on the team, which is what many of us expected.

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07-05-2013, 10:28 PM
  #841
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Originally Posted by Sickk Billz View Post
Bob Murray wanted him to get a shot but the shortened season prevented BB from giving him a long hard look because of the increased importance of games? .. thats all i got out of that
Exactly.

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07-05-2013, 10:44 PM
  #842
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That was rhetorical musings by Murray. If he really wanted to get Vatanen more time he would have called him up to the NHL team. Then asked BB to play him.

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07-06-2013, 12:05 AM
  #843
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Originally Posted by snarktacular View Post
That was rhetorical musings by Murray. If he really wanted to get Vatanen more time he would have called him up to the NHL team. Then asked BB to play him.
Murph isn't about to tell Boudreau how to do his job. It doesn't work like that. A GM acquires the players and the coach manages them. Or at least a GM who respects his coach does that.

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07-06-2013, 12:37 AM
  #844
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Murph isn't about to tell Boudreau how to do his job. It doesn't work like that. A GM acquires the players and the coach manages them. Or at least a GM who respects his coach does that.
You're projecting. We have no idea how they operate. Personally I think that's a bad way to operate. I would expect they come to those kinds of decisions together. Because those decisions have both long term and short term considerations, and the two positions have more or less emphasis on one or the other.

But at the end of the day, Murray is Boudreau's boss. He has the power to fire him. If he really wanted to, he could absolutely order him to play a certain player. But more likely he could just make it a suggestion. "We'd like to see Vatanen more, try to work him in when you can."

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07-06-2013, 01:50 AM
  #845
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Originally Posted by TheJoeMan View Post
Murph isn't about to tell Boudreau how to do his job. It doesn't work like that. A GM acquires the players and the coach manages them. Or at least a GM who respects his coach does that.
Coaches and GMs very much make these decisions together. When Murray acquires someone he will liaise with BB about whether the said player will fit and where they think he fits.

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07-06-2013, 02:06 AM
  #846
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Sami Kapanen is going to be a great player someday.

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07-06-2013, 02:12 AM
  #847
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Sami Kapanen is going to be a great player someday.
He better become one very soon. He is ageing quite quickly and has already been retired once...

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07-06-2013, 05:06 AM
  #848
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He better become one very soon. He is ageing quite quickly and has already been retired once...
Feisty little warrior with good wheels. He has all the tools to become a good player.

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07-06-2013, 05:43 AM
  #849
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Originally Posted by HenrikSedin33 View Post
Sami Kapanen is going to be a great player someday.
I think I just missed something and look like sedin in your avatar.


Vatanen is not proven in the NHL yet so lets keep him in beer league and see if he can prove himself in the NHL there. I hope he gets to start with NHL team and gets solid shot at there, he had good succes in AHL last season, would be deserved try.

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07-21-2013, 08:51 AM
  #850
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This will be an intresting season for Vatanen. I thought that Vatanen would need to establish himself as an NHL defenseman to be considered as a lock for team Finland in Sochi, but as FiLe put it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Vatanen and Granlund are slated to make it no matter whether they play with the big club or in the minors. In fact, they don't even need the additional NHL experience to be highly effective. Sochi will be on big ice, and in that regard both are serious studs already with nothing left to prove.
So Vatanen is already penciled in top 4 with Salo, Timonen and Pitkänen despite the possibility he plays another season in AHL. I watched a couple of highlights of Vatanen in big ice and it really shows how speed, skill and big ice makes it easy for an OFD:



So we might have Vatanen play top 4 role with 1st PP in the Olympics but not make the Ducks team this season. Other possible players for team Finland of the Ducks team are Selanne and Koivu with Koivu being 4th or 3rd line center and Selanne being a PP specialist and making the team by his old merits (most points in Olympic hockey). Lydman could be bottom pairing defenseman for team Finland.

Some achievements of Vatanen since he was drafted and my prediction how it continues:

2010-11 SM-liiga all star
2011-12 SM-liiga all star
2012-13 AHL all star
predictions how this streak continues
2013-14 AHL all star, Olympics all star
2014-15 NHL Calder Trophy
2015-16 NHL all star
...

EDIT: despite the sarcastic prediction that fits under this thread name, could it be possible to change it to something more neutral? Like just "Sami Vatanen". By the way, do you think it is possible for Vatanen not to lose Calder eligibility this season? Or will he get those 25 games already?


Last edited by Hagged: 07-21-2013 at 10:47 AM.
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