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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Mario Lemieux vs Bobby Orr?

View Poll Results: Who was the better player?
Mario Lemieux 52 27.51%
Bobby Orr 137 72.49%
Voters: 189. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-21-2013, 11:30 AM
  #276
Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Defense implies checking or stopping the opposition from scoring as being the primary focus.
Only in your narrow view of the word.
In the real world, defense is about positioning, pressure, controlling lanes and controlling the puck itself.

Quote:
It's a stretch of the definition that either Wayne or Mario were "defensive players" in any use of the term.
Again, not in your narrow view. Just because neither of them were very avid backcheckers, that doesn't mean they were poor defensively.
Backchecking is only a part of playing defense. Unfortunately, it's the most noticeable part and the part that far too many people (like yourself) associate with defense and put too much weight to.

But hey, by all means tell me what it is that Datsyuk does that makes him stand out defensively every season?
Is it because he backchecks? Sure but almost everyone backchecks today.
Is it because he's good positionally? For sure but again, a lot of players are good positionally.
Does he control lanes? Yep, Once again though, many players do this.
Or is it because he's one of the best forecheckers in the game and one of the top puck possession players in the league? Bingo!!!



Quote:
It's the equivalent of calling Marty Broduer and "offensive player" because of his puck handling abilities.
No it isn't.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 06-21-2013 at 11:38 AM.
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Old
06-21-2013, 01:15 PM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Offence and defence are connected in the same fashion as exhaling and inhaling. They go together. There is no primary focus...
I was just about to post same until I tripped across this post, and absolutely correct. Based on random opportunism. Duality sure but complete integration. Always thinking 1, 2, 3 or 4 plays ahead. Critical thought. Cause & effect.

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06-21-2013, 02:19 PM
  #278
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Offence and defence are connected in the same fashion as exhaling and inhaling. They go together. There is no primary focus. Taking faceoffs is the same skill regardless of the zone or situation so obviously the focus issue does not exist for faceoffs. Players focus equally for all faceoffs.

Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux are recognized for their talents in the offensive zone. This overlooks their defensive skills in the offensive zone. Both had the ability to hold the puck longer waiting for the exact moment to execute. Why did they hold the puck so long? Answer is very basic, they recognized the defensive liabilities of moving the puck earlier. Again you cannot separate offence and defence according to focus in such situations.

Neutral zone / defensive zone. On the puck both were very hard to beat one on one. Away from the puck both had the ability to go where the puck was going to be. This ability is evidenced in the high SH goal totals for each. Two issues remain about both in the defensive zone. The team defenses used - both were suited to non-traditional defenses - one forward(preferably) a center responsible for the two points. Protecting the downside. No point in taking the risks involved in blocking shots or having them trapped out of the play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Only in your narrow view of the word.
In the real world, defense is about positioning, pressure, controlling lanes and controlling the puck itself.



Again, not in your narrow view. Just because neither of them were very avid backcheckers, that doesn't mean they were poor defensively.
Backchecking is only a part of playing defense. Unfortunately, it's the most noticeable part and the part that far too many people (like yourself) associate with defense and put too much weight to.

But hey, by all means tell me what it is that Datsyuk does that makes him stand out defensively every season?
Is it because he backchecks? Sure but almost everyone backchecks today.
Is it because he's good positionally? For sure but again, a lot of players are good positionally.
Does he control lanes? Yep, Once again though, many players do this.
Or is it because he's one of the best forecheckers in the game and one of the top puck possession players in the league? Bingo!!!

No it isn't.
Thank you. This is something that's been troubling me for a while and it's good to see someone finally address it

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Old
06-21-2013, 05:42 PM
  #279
pappyline
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Originally Posted by Irato99 View Post
It's a well known fact that top offensive players before Gretzky rarely played PK, Lafleur has 3 career SH goals, Bossy has 8, Gretzky has 73...
And defensive play is not just crushing a player on the boards, to score that much you have to find ways to use defense to convert into offense.
It was fairly common. Bobby Hull was regularly killing penalties in the 60's when he was setting scoring records. Pretty sure that Howe and Espo killed penalties as well. One team that didn't use their stars to PK was Montreal. Beliveau etc. didn't have to use up energy on the PK. habs had specialists for that.

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06-21-2013, 05:52 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
One team that didn't use their stars to PK was Montreal. Beliveau etc. didn't have to use up energy on the PK. habs had specialists for that.
Ya, Toronto as well, Mahovlich out there with Kelly & Nevin, Keon etc, though they of course built differently than Chicago but still... Boston & the Rangers rather anemic offensively late 50's early to mid-60's anyway, but generally throwing out there top talent on the PK.

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06-22-2013, 01:32 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Only in your narrow view of the word.
In the real world, defense is about positioning, pressure, controlling lanes and controlling the puck itself.
All of these things, except perhaps the last one can be primarily viewed as defensive attributes when isloated on their own.

Controlling the puck, in and of itself, isn't defensive in nature it's first and foremost an offensive part of the game. Kent Nilsson could control the puck, it doesn't make him a defensive player. Dido Coffey or Housley.



Quote:
Again, not in your narrow view. Just because neither of them were very avid backcheckers, that doesn't mean they were poor defensively.
Backchecking is only a part of playing defense. Unfortunately, it's the most noticeable part and the part that far too many people (like yourself) associate with defense and put too much weight to.
I like to look at the totality of any player when making my evaluations about him. See Dats below.

Quote:
But hey, by all means tell me what it is that Datsyuk does that makes him stand out defensively every season?
Is it because he backchecks? Sure but almost everyone backchecks today.
Is it because he's good positionally? For sure but again, a lot of players are good positionally.
Does he control lanes? Yep, Once again though, many players do this.
Or is it because he's one of the best forecheckers in the game and one of the top puck possession players in the league? Bingo!!!
It's the fact that he does all of these things and his puck possession is still more of an offensive attribute than a defensive one.

Maybe you are buying the Gilbert Perreault argument of "the best defense is a great offense" here too much?

Man this is really revisionist, go back to the prime of either guys career and ask the question, "who are the top defensive forwards in the league" and there would be 50 plus guys talked about before either Wayne or Mario would come up, especially Mario.

Mario was alot of things but he wasn't a good defensive forward. Period.

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06-22-2013, 01:43 AM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Offence and defence are connected in the same fashion as exhaling and inhaling. They go together. There is no primary focus. Taking faceoffs is the same skill regardless of the zone or situation so obviously the focus issue does not exist for faceoffs. Players focus equally for all faceoffs.
actually the goal in the offensive zone is to win the FO cleanly to generate possession and a scoring chance while in the defensive zone "winning" isn't as important as the stopping the other team from winning cleanly is just as good, so a battle for the puck, or a tie, in the face off dot is good as well.

Quote:
Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux are recognized for their talents in the offensive zone. This overlooks their defensive skills in the offensive zone. Both had the ability to hold the puck longer waiting for the exact moment to execute. Why did they hold the puck so long? Answer is very basic, they recognized the defensive liabilities of moving the puck earlier. Again you cannot separate offence and defence according to focus in such situations.
This is creative but hardly true, both players held onto the puck to wait for better scoring opportunities first and foremost.

Quote:
Neutral zone / defensive zone. On the puck both were very hard to beat one on one. Away from the puck both had the ability to go where the puck was going to be. This ability is evidenced in the high SH goal totals for each. Two issues remain about both in the defensive zone. The team defenses used - both were suited to non-traditional defenses - one forward(preferably) a center responsible for the two points. Protecting the downside. No point in taking the risks involved in blocking shots or having them trapped out of the play.
If playing offense and defense were truly 'connected in the same fashion as exhaling and inhaling" we would see this correlation throughout time and we simply don't.

Plain and simple the overall defensive play of forwards was much less in the 80's than say post mid 90's.

All one has to do is simply watch virtually nay game from the 2 different time periods.

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06-22-2013, 09:33 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Thank you. This is something that's been troubling me for a while and it's good to see someone finally address it
Agreed, two great posts.

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Old
06-22-2013, 09:35 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
All of these things, except perhaps the last one can be primarily viewed as defensive attributes when isloated on their own.

Controlling the puck, in and of itself, isn't defensive in nature it's first and foremost an offensive part of the game. Kent Nilsson could control the puck, it doesn't make him a defensive player. Dido Coffey or Housley.





I like to look at the totality of any player when making my evaluations about him. See Dats below.



It's the fact that he does all of these things and his puck possession is still more of an offensive attribute than a defensive one.

Maybe you are buying the Gilbert Perreault argument of "the best defense is a great offense" here too much?

Man this is really revisionist, go back to the prime of either guys career and ask the question, "who are the top defensive forwards in the league" and there would be 50 plus guys talked about before either Wayne or Mario would come up, especially Mario.

Mario was alot of things but he wasn't a good defensive forward. Period.

I think you're lost again. Hockey is a sport where players play both defense and offense at the same time. Puck possession is a key element of defense. Being pinned in your own zone and blocking shots is the sign of not only a poor player, but a player I would prefer not to have. Possession and controlling the play dominates isolated events in your end. Hockey is not a series of isolated events.

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06-22-2013, 09:50 AM
  #285
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I think you're lost again. Hockey is a sport where players play both defense and offense at the same time. Puck possession is a key element of defense. Being pinned in your own zone and blocking shots is the sign of not only a poor player, but a player I would prefer not to have. Possession and controlling the play dominates isolated events in your end. Hockey is not a series of isolated events.
I get it.

Gretzky & Mario were not only not bad defensively, they were actually great defensively because offense is defense and defense as we once new it really doesn't exist.

Brilliant.

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06-22-2013, 12:56 PM
  #286
Rhiessan71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
All of these things, except perhaps the last one can be primarily viewed as defensive attributes when isloated on their own.

Controlling the puck, in and of itself, isn't defensive in nature it's first and foremost an offensive part of the game. Kent Nilsson could control the puck, it doesn't make him a defensive player. Dido Coffey or Housley.
If you control the puck, you control the game PERIOD!


Quote:
I like to look at the totality of any player when making my evaluations about him. See Dats below.
Obviously you don't. Or at least you don't do it equally for every player. You rank Lidstrom over Bourque because of Lidstrom's defense yet at the end of the day Lidstrom has but a slight advantage in his defensive numbers and that's despite Bourque playing the majority of his career during a much higher scoring time (that's right, works both ways boyo).
Even I admit that Lidstrom was a better positionally than Bourque and took less chances but how then is bourque still right there with him I wonder?
Oooohhhhh that's right, that's because Bourque was a superior puck possession player and controlled the ENTIRE game at a level Lidstrom never came close to.

You love to jump on people who cite the eye test. What exactly do you think you are doing with Lidstrom?
You see him making all these great defensive plays and you think hey, this guy is the best ever. Bourque wasn't making as many great defensive plays because HE DIDN'T HAVE TO. He controlled the puck a lot more.

Honestly dude, I could line up 50 coaches from Junior and up and every single one of them would laugh at your statement that puck possession isn't a defensive tool.


Quote:
It's the fact that he does all of these things and his puck possession is still more of an offensive attribute than a defensive one.

Maybe you are buying the Gilbert Perreault argument of "the best defense is a great offense" here too much?

Man this is really revisionist, go back to the prime of either guys career and ask the question, "who are the top defensive forwards in the league" and there would be 50 plus guys talked about before either Wayne or Mario would come up, especially Mario.

Mario was alot of things but he wasn't a good defensive forward. Period.
Whoa, wait a minute, don't go all extremist here, where did I say Gretzky and Lemieux were good defensively?
I didn't.
They were both poor backcheckers, hence their lane control wasn't always very good but both could play positional defense when needed and did so in the playoffs and in Int tourney's many times over.
They were both extremely good possession players and extremely good forecheckers.

I'm just saying that they were not as poor as you're making out.
Was there ever a time when you said wow, Gretzky looks lost in his own zone? NO, you did not!
Was there ever a time you said wow, Housley looks lost in his own own? Damned right you did!

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06-22-2013, 01:38 PM
  #287
Dennis Bonvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
If you control the puck, you control the game PERIOD!




Obviously you don't. Or at least you don't do it equally for every player. You rank Lidstrom over Bourque because of Lidstrom's defense yet at the end of the day Lidstrom has but a slight advantage in his defensive numbers and that's despite Bourque playing the majority of his career during a much higher scoring time (that's right, works both ways boyo).
Even I admit that Lidstrom was a better positionally than Bourque and took less chances but how then is bourque still right there with him I wonder?
Oooohhhhh that's right, that's because Bourque was a superior puck possession player and controlled the ENTIRE game at a level Lidstrom never came close to.

You love to jump on people who cite the eye test. What exactly do you think you are doing with Lidstrom?
You see him making all these great defensive plays and you think hey, this guy is the best ever. Bourque wasn't making as many great defensive plays because HE DIDN'T HAVE TO. He controlled the puck a lot more.

Honestly dude, I could line up 50 coaches from Junior and up and every single one of them would laugh at your statement that puck possession isn't a defensive tool.




Whoa, wait a minute, don't go all extremist here, where did I say Gretzky and Lemieux were good defensively?
I didn't.
They were both poor backcheckers, hence their lane control wasn't always very good but both could play positional defense when needed and did so in the playoffs and in Int tourney's many times over.
They were both extremely good possession players and extremely good forecheckers.

I'm just saying that they were not as poor as you're making out.
Was there ever a time when you said wow, Gretzky looks lost in his own zone? NO, you did not!
Was there ever a time you said wow, Housley looks lost in his own own? Damned right you did!
Was there ever a time when you said wow, Gretzky is in his own zone? Occasionally

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06-22-2013, 02:15 PM
  #288
Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Was there ever a time when you said wow, Gretzky is in his own zone? Occasionally
In the regular season...not so much
In the playoffs and Int Tourny's, all the time.

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