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Old
06-22-2013, 01:42 PM
  #26
Zip15
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Originally Posted by wearegodawful View Post
Although it isn't really what I'd like Regier to do, I don't see trading Stafford for Hemsky as a lateral move whatsoever. When healthy, Hemsky is a dangerous offensive threat and a power play wizard. For me, it pretty much boils down to the fact that Stafford sucks and Hemsky does not. I wouldn't have a problem taking on the extra 1.5 mil or so in salary for somebody who can actually score on a consistent basis.

The more I think about it, the more Hemsky becomes a good top 6 stop gap until Armia has proven that he can carry that weight.

Really don't see why many are so quick to write him off. In a full season Hemsky can put up 60-70 points. Who in our current lineup (besides Vanek) is a lock to produce that many points?
It's 2013 now, not 2010. Hemsky has 56 pts in his last 107 NHL games over the last two seasons--lower total pts and ppg than Stafford, so tell me again which one sucks? In others words he's about a 40ish pts/season winger (if he could ever play 82 games, which we know he can't) with a one-way game and his physical game makes Stafford look like Milan Lucic. Hemsky also turns 30 this summer, so he's on the wrong side of his career arc.

Your post is full of factual inaccuracies and is typical grass-is-always-greener mularkey.


Last edited by Zip15: 06-22-2013 at 01:53 PM. Reason: Math
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06-22-2013, 02:02 PM
  #27
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Edmonton has been trying to move Hemsky for the last 3 or 4 years and found no takers. He's useless to a rebuilding team. The fact that we could have got Burmistov out of WPG for Stafford has me thinking that Drew still has value around the league. My assumption is Regier will try and trade him for someone flying under the radar.

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06-22-2013, 02:06 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
It's 2013 now, not 2010. Hemsky has 56 pts in his last 107 NHL games over the last two seasons--lower total pts and ppg than Stafford, so tell me again which one sucks? In others words he's about a 40ish pts/season winger (if he could ever play 82 games, which we know he can't) with a one-way game and his physical game makes Stafford look like Milan Lucic. Hemsky also turns 30 this summer, so he's on the wrong side of his career arc.

Your post is full of factual inaccuracies and is typical grass-is-always-greener mularkey.
I'll tell you again who sucks. Stafford sucks. And I'd rather have Hemsky.

To me, having a one-dimensional offensive winger is better than having a two way forward who actually isn't that great in any aspect of hockey. Something about the unpredictability and skill of Hemsky is more enticing than watching Stafford try to drive the net and fail every time.

Seriously, Stafford does nothing well. I'd take a 3rd rounder for him at this point. So Hemsky actually sounds pretty good. But like I said, it's not my first choice.

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06-22-2013, 02:09 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by wearegodawful View Post
I'll tell you again who sucks. Stafford sucks. And I'd rather have Hemsky.

To me, having a one-dimensional offensive winger is better than having a two way forward who actually isn't that great in any aspect of hockey. Something about the unpredictability and skill of Hemsky is more enticing than watching Stafford try to drive the net and fail every time.
I bet you loved Tim Connolly at the end of his Sabres career, too. You keep talking about Hemsky's offensive skill--and you concede it's his only skill--but Stafford has better numbers since the start of 2011-12.

You're entitled to your own opinion but yours is a pretty weak one.

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06-22-2013, 02:19 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I bet you loved Tim Connolly at the end of his Sabres career, too. You keep talking about Hemsky's offensive skill--and you concede it's his only skill--but Stafford has better numbers since the start of 2011-12.

You're entitled to your own opinion but yours is a pretty weak one.
No. I hated Connolly toward the end of his career here because he became a completely useless player.

The production of Hemsky and Stafford over the last 2 seasons is so minimally tipped in Stafford's favor that it hardly matters or proves any point. I don't see Stafford as anything more than a fringe 2nd/3rd liner. I just think at this point Hemsky brings more to the table. Otherwise wouldn't we want to keep Stafford?

Lastly, 30 is not old.

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06-22-2013, 02:25 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I bet you loved Tim Connolly at the end of his Sabres career, too. You keep talking about Hemsky's offensive skill--and you concede it's his only skill--but Stafford has better numbers since the start of 2011-12.

You're entitled to your own opinion but yours is a pretty weak one.
Tim Connolly was an elite PKer at the end of his time here. Even at the end, Connolly brought more than Stafford did last year.

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06-22-2013, 02:27 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by wearegodawful View Post
No. I hated Connolly toward the end of his career here because he became a completely useless player.

The production of Hemsky and Stafford over the last 2 seasons is so minimally tipped in Stafford's favor that it hardly matters or proves any point. I don't see Stafford as anything more than a fringe 2nd/3rd liner. I just think at this point Hemsky brings more to the table. Otherwise wouldn't we want to keep Stafford?

Lastly, 30 is not old.
So Stafford has the better production, so Hemsky must have some other advantage over Stafford in your mind. Age? No. Defensive play? Nope. Physicality? Nope. He's a soft, one-dimensional winger who brings nothing to the table if he isn't producing, which is increasingly the case over the last couple seasons. The guy is going to be outta the league within three years.

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06-22-2013, 02:27 PM
  #33
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Do we really need to argue about Stafford vs Hemsky? The bottom line is that there has to be a deal out there that makes more sense, which is more important than which of the two is better.

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06-22-2013, 02:29 PM
  #34
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Tim Connolly was an elite PKer at the end of his time here. Even at the end, Connolly brought more than Stafford did last year.
Connolly was very good at the top of the 3-on-5 PK. Saying he was an elite PKer is a liberal use of the word.

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06-22-2013, 02:30 PM
  #35
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Maybe I have a general distaste/agenda when it comes to Stafford. All I'm really saying is I wouldn't be upset if we got Hemsky for him. I don't think Stafford nets a 1st at the draft. Maybe a 2nd, and I see Hemsky as an equivalent return.

I'd rather have Paajarvi though. 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.

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06-22-2013, 03:02 PM
  #36
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I love saying "paajarvi"..... Makes me feel like the pirate guy from Dodgeball.

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06-22-2013, 03:20 PM
  #37
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I love saying "paajarvi"..... Makes me feel like the pirate guy from Dodgeball.
Steve Ott?

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06-22-2013, 03:26 PM
  #38
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Steve Ott?
How did I not see that before!? I need to see Ott saying, "PaaJARvi, Peter".

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06-22-2013, 03:48 PM
  #39
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Stafford is a quality complimentary piece who, in fact, does not suck at hockey.

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06-22-2013, 04:08 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by wearegodawful View Post
Maybe I have a general distaste/agenda when it comes to Stafford. All I'm really saying is I wouldn't be upset if we got Hemsky for him. I don't think Stafford nets a 1st at the draft. Maybe a 2nd, and I see Hemsky as an equivalent return.

I'd rather have Paajarvi though. 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.
Stafford is worth more then a 2nd. Easily. Teams would be jumping for joy if any of their 2nd round picks become even remotely as good as Stafford.

Put it this way, Regier turned down Burmistrov for Stafford. You think Darcy would then just trade Stafford for a 2nd? Drew is a quality hockey player and is the perfect RW2. Puts in 20 goals/50 points a year, is big and strong and can PK. He's only turning 28 in October and is still young. He had one bad year this past one, so what. Nearly every single player on the team sans Vanek and Cody had a bad year for their standards. It doesn't mean that 12-13 negates several seasons of Drews production. The 2 years prior to the lockout shortened one, Drew Stafford scored 51 goals in 142 games. And was a +18 over those 2 seasons with 8 GwG.

I can't stand when people say Stafford sucks or Stafford is worthless. It's just BS and not true. People are just mad that after his 31 goal, 62 game season he reverted back to his 20 goal self. Yeah it's disappointing but last time I checked, 20 goals a season is what only 101 players did in 11-12 and 106 in 10-11. There are only on average a little more then 3 20 goal scorers per team but riiiight, Stafford sucks and is worthless

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06-22-2013, 04:50 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Stafford is worth more then a 2nd. Easily. Teams would be jumping for joy if any of their 2nd round picks become even remotely as good as Stafford.

Put it this way, Regier turned down Burmistrov for Stafford. You think Darcy would then just trade Stafford for a 2nd? Drew is a quality hockey player and is the perfect RW2. Puts in 20 goals/50 points a year, is big and strong and can PK. He's only turning 28 in October and is still young. He had one bad year this past one, so what. Nearly every single player on the team sans Vanek and Cody had a bad year for their standards. It doesn't mean that 12-13 negates several seasons of Drews production. The 2 years prior to the lockout shortened one, Drew Stafford scored 51 goals in 142 games. And was a +18 over those 2 seasons with 8 GwG.

I can't stand when people say Stafford sucks or Stafford is worthless. It's just BS and not true. People are just mad that after his 31 goal, 62 game season he reverted back to his 20 goal self. Yeah it's disappointing but last time I checked, 20 goals a season is what only 101 players did in 11-12 and 106 in 10-11. There are only on average a little more then 3 20 goal scorers per team but riiiight, Stafford sucks and is worthless
I agree with everything you said here, and if this team trades Vanek, they will need Stafford in the lineup.

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06-22-2013, 04:57 PM
  #42
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Since we're arguing about Hemsky vs Stafford, it must be said that Drew's shown much more than Paajarvi at this point. Paajarvi came into the league with the same kind of problems everyone should expect Nichushkin to bring. His shot was crap and his offense was predicated on power moves to the net that just aren't there 9 times out of 10 at the NHL level. He's brought his defensive game along a pretty solid degree from what I've seen. He put up nearly identical numbers to Drew last season in considerably less minutes. So at the end of the day, he might end up as good as or a bit better than Drew, but the risk has very little reward in that swap, imo.

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06-22-2013, 06:40 PM
  #43
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@layne staley or anyone who can corroborate,

Is it known fact regier declined burmistov for stafford?

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06-22-2013, 06:49 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by brian_griffin View Post
@layne staley or anyone who can corroborate,

Is it known fact regier declined burmistov for stafford?
From what I recall there was pretty overwhelming circumstantial evidence that there was a deal with those primaries as the basis. As to who turned what down, who knows. I do know things were said insinuating Darcy wanted Winnipeg to add, but I don't recall my impression of how reliable that information seemed.

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06-22-2013, 07:31 PM
  #45
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@layne staley or anyone who can corroborate,

Is it known fact regier declined burmistov for stafford?
TSN reported the deal fell through from the Jets side when Regier insisted on a 2nd round pick coming back with Burmi.

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06-22-2013, 07:41 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
TSN reported the deal fell through from the Jets side when Regier insisted on a 2nd round pick coming back with Burmi.
Which frankly isn't unreasonable. Paajarvi and Burmistrov are both players IIRC the same age and seasons played, both with similarly underwhelming ice time earned and production. Both were similar picks in neighboring drafts. At least a 3rd coming back with either is fair value imo. Whether the other team is willing to trade an inconsistent, high-drafted young player for an inconsistent but proven, high-salaried player is another question. We know that the answer is yes in Winnipeg's case, but I guess not emphatically enough so.

I noticed Burmi is going to be an RFA coming off his ELC. It'll be interesting to see how those negotiations go as Burmi very much seems to want a fresh start and the organization doesn't seem to believe in him much. You've got to believe he's still on the market.

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06-22-2013, 07:45 PM
  #47
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Thx for details.

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06-22-2013, 07:47 PM
  #48
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To that end, effort was not an issue last year, talent was.
The effort level was directly related to adversity - they worked hard for stretches in games where they either led or were tied but very often when they fell behind or heavily forechecked in their own end, the effort level freefalled. That lack of mental toughness to work hard for 60 minutes, regardless of the score, led to inconsistent efforts within and between games IMO. Better teams tend to ramp up their work effort when they fall behind or face some adversity (i.e. fluky goal, bad penalty, in-game injury). The Sabres roster got flustered too often and when they did, their energy level and willingness to fight through the adversity dropped.

Of course, a lack of talent only compounded that.

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Players knocking down the opposition and then getting scored on is more entertaining than players standing around watching the other team score on them.
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I happen to find physical hockey more entertaining than passive hockey while watching the team I'm rooting for lose. Sue me. Bread and circuses.
Don't worry, Chain - I'll get you the deluxe anniversary edition of "Slapshot" DVD to comfort you this season.

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For me, it pretty much boils down to the fact that Stafford sucks and Hemsky does not. I wouldn't have a problem taking on the extra 1.5 mil or so in salary for somebody who can actually score on a consistent basis.
Talk to Oiler fans who have watched Hemsky game in and game out - they'll give you the same "he sucks" evaluation as most Sabre fans give for Stafford.

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Hopefully Regier isn't trying to half-ass the rebuild.
The mixed signals in Regier's and Black's words and actions, along with Pegula's lack of clarity on anything hockey-related, makes that concern valid IMO. My gut feeling is that the "suffering" stance was a smokescreen and disclaimer to get the pressure off himself and next year's team - and I very much doubt that behind closed doors any of Pegula, Black or Regier are really accepting the prospect of a weaker roster and another missed playoff.

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I can't see any teams adding Miller at the deadline.
History has shown that circumstances can easily change during the season, especially from injuries. Teams that have a contending roster and are banking on their own goalies now may find themselves at the deadline with sub-par goaltending and think that a switch may be the spark to get them back on track.

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The fact that we could have got Burmistov out of WPG for Stafford has me thinking that Drew still has value around the league. My assumption is Regier will try and trade him for someone flying under the radar.
When Regier mentioned Thursday that they're also talking to teams below them in the draft order, I immediately pictured the Sabres showing interest in the Jets' 13th pick as part of some package that might involve Burmistrov-Stafford.

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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
Since we're arguing about Hemsky vs Stafford, it must be said that Drew's shown much more than Paajarvi at this point. Paajarvi came into the league with the same kind of problems everyone should expect Nichushkin to bring. His shot was crap and his offense was predicated on power moves to the net that just aren't there 9 times out of 10 at the NHL level. He's brought his defensive game along a pretty solid degree from what I've seen. He put up nearly identical numbers to Drew last season in considerably less minutes. So at the end of the day, he might end up as good as or a bit better than Drew, but the risk has very little reward in that swap, imo.
You do realize that Stafford is 5 years older than Paajarvi and has played nearly 300 more games in the NHL than Paajarvi? It's silly to compare stats between them with that kind of huge spread - and even moreso when Stafford has been used primarily on the top 2 lines for most of his Sabre career whereas Paajarvi has been used mostly on the Oilers' bottom 2 lines. Stafford had his share of time in Ruff's doghouse on the 4th line just like Paajarvi had some hot stretches on the 1st line - but those were brief exceptions to their usual slotting in the respective lineups.

Has Paajarvi failed to live up to his pre-draft expectations? Yes - but at age 22 and only 2-1/2 seasons under his belt, the jury on what kind of player he'll become is still out. Stafford has more or less plateaued as to the kind of player he will ever be.


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06-22-2013, 07:57 PM
  #49
Rob Paxon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
You do realize that Stafford is 5 years older than Paajarvi and has played nearly 300 more games in the NHL than Paajarvi? It's silly to compare stats between them with that kind of huge spread - and even moreso when Stafford has been used primarily on the top 2 lines for most of his Sabre career whereas Paajarvi has been used mostly on the Oilers' bottom 2 lines.

Has Paajarvi failed to live up to his pre-draft expectations? Yes - but at age 22 and only 2-1/2 seasons under his belt, the jury on what kind of player he'll become is still out. Stafford has more or less plateaued as to the kind of player he will ever be.
Obviously I realize Stafford is older. It's not silly to compare because I stated who the better player now is. I very clearly said this, and I said Paajarvi can become the better player but it's more likely he becomes a similar player. That's not overly enticing. I've watched a ton of Oiler games the past 2 seasons, especially this year. I'm not against having Paajarvi on the team but he is an underwhelming option for such a (in some ways) physically talented player. I never stated nor implied Stafford will become a better player and I would like to see him moved. Paajarvi would not be my first option for what I imagine might be out there in return. I'd just as soon see Stafford used in part to move up back into the first if there's some team that wants an NHL-contributing winger as take Paajarvi. If they were to move him for Paajarvi then fine but you're not necessarily any better off than you would be keeping a veteran for the top 6.

Edit: Also, the only time I compared their stats was presented in favor of Paajarvi whilst negative for both, mentioning the fact they put up similar numbers this past season despite Paajarvi getting less ice time.


Last edited by Rob Paxon: 06-22-2013 at 08:21 PM.
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06-22-2013, 08:06 PM
  #50
Layne Staley
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TSN reported the deal fell through from the Jets side when Regier insisted on a 2nd round pick coming back with Burmi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSN
The Jets were reportedly talking to the Sabres about a deal that would send Alexander Burmistrov to Buffalo for right-winger Drew Stafford.

"It's one of those things where at different points in time you're talking lots of different players with lots of different teams and different scenarios," said Jets GM Kevin Cheveldayoff. "This is the group that earned the opportunity to be battling at this point in time for a playoff position."
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=419753

I could have sworn in one of the articles Chevy was more direct mentioning Burmistrov and the pick situation by word of mouth. Still, TSN is a prime source so there is no doubt at all that Regier turned down Burmi for Staff.

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