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Jaro or Elliot and for whom/what?

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Old
06-22-2013, 01:20 PM
  #1
dxgoalie
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Jaro or Elliot and for whom/what?

Everyone knows we are moving a goalie either this summer. The question is who and what will we see in return. I doubt Armstrong moves Allen, he and Bishop were our future options in goaltending and Armstrong chose Allen over Bishop when he traded him to Ottawa. So that leaves Jaro, who is injury plagued, has the higher cap hit, and is great when healthy, or Elliot, who has had stints of great play, but has been inconsistent and hasn't shown that he can be a full time starter since leaving Wisconsin.
And the greater question who/what do we get in return for them?

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06-22-2013, 01:46 PM
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Jaro goes. He has the higher cap hit, holds higher trade value, and is not great but mediocre when healthy. Jaro has done next to nothing with his time in St. Louis. He's lost his job numerous times since being here. It's a toss up what he brings. I imagine h either gets packaged away for Ryan Miller, or he gets traded off for a late 1st this year and we just run with Elliott/Allen next year.

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06-22-2013, 02:13 PM
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Jaro goes. He has the higher cap hit, holds higher trade value, and is not great but mediocre when healthy. Jaro has done next to nothing with his time in St. Louis. He's lost his job numerous times since being here. It's a toss up what he brings. I imagine h either gets packaged away for Ryan Miller, or he gets traded off for a late 1st this year and we just run with Elliott/Allen next year.
How does that solve the issue of having a two/three goalies in PEO/CHI (Bingington, Karpowich, Lundstrom) and three in STL?

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06-22-2013, 02:36 PM
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How does that solve the issue of having a two/three goalies in PEO/CHI (Bingington, Karpowich, Lundstrom) and three in STL?
Lundstrom will be in Sweden. If we get Miller, there's a chance we could ship off both Halak and Elliott.

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06-22-2013, 02:38 PM
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How does that solve the issue of having a two/three goalies in PEO/CHI (Bingington, Karpowich, Lundstrom) and three in STL?
Well Halak would part of a trade to get Miller and then Elliott would be moved for picks. Really not that hard of a concept. So we would run with Miller/Allen.

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06-22-2013, 02:39 PM
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I wasn't sure if he was coming over or not. Then what do you guys see coming back for elliot, because I doubt buffalo will take both of them. they just resigned Enroth to a multi year deal

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06-22-2013, 02:42 PM
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I wasn't sure if he was coming over or not. Then what do you guys see coming back for elliot, because I doubt buffalo will take both of them. they just resigned Enroth to a multi year deal
Only a late 2nd or 3rd pick for Elliott to whoever needs a goalie.

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06-22-2013, 03:54 PM
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the teams that seem to need a goalie are...

FLA
TOR
MINN
TB
PHI
NYI
CGY

some of those are maybes... but these are the teams I think the blues have to choose from... so whatever they would give back is what we're lookin at

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06-22-2013, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dxgoalie View Post
Everyone knows we are moving a goalie either this summer. The question is who and what will we see in return. I doubt Armstrong moves Allen, he and Bishop were our future options in goaltending and Armstrong chose Allen over Bishop when he traded him to Ottawa. So that leaves Jaro, who is injury plagued, has the higher cap hit, and is great when healthy, or Elliot, who has had stints of great play, but has been inconsistent and hasn't shown that he can be a full time starter since leaving Wisconsin.
And the greater question who/what do we get in return for them?
I don't think that's a foregone conclusion at all. This tandem won the Jennings two years ago, and the Blues traded Bishop (a far more developed/proven player than Binnington or Karpowich) to do it. I'm not sure how much stock they're going to put into one lockout wrecked season's worth of disappointment.

As far as which goalie I would rather keep between Halak and Elliott if forced to choose between them, for me it's Halak and it's not even particularly close. Elliott had one historic season with us, but it's clearly an outlier. Beyond that, Halak's regular season performances (minimum 30 games played) routinely trump Elliott's, and Halak's playoff resume is clearly superior as well.

I'm far from ready to throw Halak under the bus because: 1) He injured/re-injured his groin (an injury notorious for lingering and being slow to heal) during a shortened season. 2) His numbers in the whopping 16 games he played this season were far below his averages.

I think the Blues are in trouble if they're rolling with Elliott/Allen next year.

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06-22-2013, 05:58 PM
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I don't think that's a foregone conclusion at all. This tandem won the Jennings two years ago, and the Blues traded Bishop (a far more developed/proven player than Binnington or Karpowich) to do it. I'm not sure how much stock they're going to put into one lockout wrecked season's worth of disappointment.

As far as which goalie I would rather keep between Halak and Elliott if forced to choose between them, for me it's Halak and it's not even particularly close. Elliott had one historic season with us, but it's clearly an outlier. Beyond that, Halak's regular season performances (minimum 30 games played) routinely trump Elliott's, and Halak's playoff resume is clearly superior as well.

I'm far from ready to throw Halak under the bus because: 1) He injured/re-injured his groin (an injury notorious for lingering and being slow to heal) during a shortened season. 2) His numbers in the whopping 16 games he played this season were far below his averages.

I think the Blues are in trouble if they're rolling with Elliott/Allen next year.
Finally! Someone here who is not turning into a Canucks fan with our goalies. I completely agree with your assessment.

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06-22-2013, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by EastonBlues22 View Post
I don't think that's a foregone conclusion at all. This tandem won the Jennings two years ago, and the Blues traded Bishop (a far more developed/proven player than Binnington or Karpowich) to do it. I'm not sure how much stock they're going to put into one lockout wrecked season's worth of disappointment.

As far as which goalie I would rather keep between Halak and Elliott if forced to choose between them, for me it's Halak and it's not even particularly close. Elliott had one historic season with us, but it's clearly an outlier. Beyond that, Halak's regular season performances (minimum 30 games played) routinely trump Elliott's, and Halak's playoff resume is clearly superior as well.

I'm far from ready to throw Halak under the bus because: 1) He injured/re-injured his groin (an injury notorious for lingering and being slow to heal) during a shortened season. 2) His numbers in the whopping 16 games he played this season were far below his averages.

I think the Blues are in trouble if they're rolling with Elliott/Allen next year.

I agree as well. I'm much more worried when Elliott is in net...

I think that a lot of people turn to the idea of halak being moved because he has the most trade value and frees up some cap space. I would prefer moving elliott or allen, though I can't imagine a worthy return

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06-22-2013, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by EastonBlues22 View Post
I don't think that's a foregone conclusion at all. This tandem won the Jennings two years ago, and the Blues traded Bishop (a far more developed/proven player than Binnington or Karpowich) to do it. I'm not sure how much stock they're going to put into one lockout wrecked season's worth of disappointment.

As far as which goalie I would rather keep between Halak and Elliott if forced to choose between them, for me it's Halak and it's not even particularly close. Elliott had one historic season with us, but it's clearly an outlier. Beyond that, Halak's regular season performances (minimum 30 games played) routinely trump Elliott's, and Halak's playoff resume is clearly superior as well.

I'm far from ready to throw Halak under the bus because: 1) He injured/re-injured his groin (an injury notorious for lingering and being slow to heal) during a shortened season. 2) His numbers in the whopping 16 games he played this season were far below his averages.

I think the Blues are in trouble if they're rolling with Elliott/Allen next year.
Halak has not done anything for St. Louis. He won the Jennings 2 years ago because of how well the Blues were playing. Did you forget his start to that season? Jaro has lost his job to Elliott twice and Jake Allen once. He also failed to make an impact his first season with the Blues, missing the playoffs after making it he year before. How well do you think the Blues would have done with Halak's terrible start 2 seasons ago and had Bishop as our backup instead of Elliott's incredible run to bring life back into the team. I could care less about how Elliott and Halak have played for their previous teams, Elliott has done more with his time in STL than Halak has by a mile.

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06-22-2013, 08:48 PM
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I personally don't want to see one go unless its bring miller back. I don't view the goaltending as a weakness but if you can upgrade anything by throwing a spare part or low level prospect in make the trade. and that goes for anything on the team.

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06-22-2013, 11:22 PM
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Halak has not done anything for St. Louis.
By what standard? As I'll detail in a bit, his regular season and playoff numbers have been almost spot on his career averages and more than good enough. He's only played 2 playoff games, so it's not like he's had much chance to disappoint in the playoffs. If playoff wins are your standard, Elliott has never won 4 playoff games in a postseason ever in spite of getting two cracks at it with the Blues, so I fail to see how he's done "more for the Blues" than Halak.

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He won the Jennings 2 years ago because of how well the Blues were playing. Did you forget his start to that season? Jaro has lost his job to Elliott twice and Jake Allen once.
"Lost his job" is a harsh way to characterize things, for a number of reasons. For one, they tried making Halak a workhorse and it didn't go well, so they've been making an effort to limit his workload to something a bit lighter. In addition, he had the best season of his career the season he "lost his job" twice to Elliott (who just happened to be having one of the best goaltending seasons of all time behind that same team). What's more, in spite of all these times he's apparently lost his starting job, he keeps (according to your definition) repeatedly winning the job back since he's consitently starting more games than his competition.

Playoffs included, he's had a .916 save percentage and 2.23 GAA over his 121 games played in St. Louis. Those aggregate numbers are currently good for the top 10-15 range among goalies any given year. His career averages are .918 and 2.41, respectively, over 243 games played. The playoff subset of those numbers is a .923 save percentage and 2.42 GAA over 23 games played. In spite of his ups and downs, Halak is a defined entity in this league.

Elliott, on the other hand, has exactly 1 season (consisting of 38 games played) where he's even come close to topping those numbers. It was a truly outstanding run, but it's also so far out of character with what he's done in the other 184 games played in his career (2.76 GAA and .902 save percentage altogether, with a 2.55 GAA and .898 playoff subset over 18 games played) that it's extremely hard to rely on him to be "The Guy" moving forward.

Over the long haul, the numbers Halak puts up are good enough for a team to win it all. You can't say the same about Elliott. Toss on that Halak essentially stole two playoff series for Montreal and has gotten a team to the third round, and it's basically a no-brainer for me.


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06-23-2013, 12:58 AM
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By what standard? As I'll detail in a bit, his regular season and playoff numbers have been almost spot on his career averages and more than good enough. He's only played 2 playoff games, so it's not like he's had much chance to disappoint in the playoffs. If playoff wins are your standard, Elliott has never won 4 playoff games in a postseason ever in spite of getting two cracks at it with the Blues, so I fail to see how he's done "more for the Blues" than Halak.


"Lost his job" is a harsh way to characterize things, for a number of reasons. For one, they tried making Halak a workhorse and it didn't go well, so they've been making an effort to limit his workload to something a bit lighter. In addition, he had the best season of his career the season he "lost his job" twice to Elliott (who just happened to be having one of the best goaltending seasons of all time behind that same team). What's more, in spite of all these times he's apparently lost his starting job, he keeps (according to your definition) repeatedly winning the job back since he's consitently starting more games than his competition.

Playoffs included, he's had a .916 save percentage and 2.23 GAA over his 121 games played in St. Louis. Those aggregate numbers are currently good for the top 10-15 range among goalies any given year. His career averages are .918 and 2.41, respectively, over 243 games played. The playoff subset of those numbers is a .923 save percentage and 2.42 GAA over 23 games played. In spite of his ups and downs, Halak is a defined entity in this league.

Elliott, on the other hand, has exactly 1 season (consisting of 38 games played) where he's even come close to topping those numbers. It was a truly outstanding run, but it's also so far out of character with what he's done in the other 184 games played in his career (2.76 GAA and .902 save percentage altogether, with a 2.55 GAA and .898 playoff subset over 18 games played) that it's extremely hard to rely on him to be "The Guy" moving forward.

Over the long haul, the numbers Halak puts up are good enough for a team to win it all. You can't say the same about Elliott. Toss on that Halak essentially stole two playoff series for Montreal and has gotten a team to the third round, and it's basically a no-brainer for me.
He got more games because he was supposed to be a starter. There were plenty of games 2 years ago I asked why they didn't keep playing Elliott when he was winning.

Also you seem to only point of Elliott's flaws and not actually give credit for what he's done. You talk about his one bad stretch with us and how he can't win a playoff series when it was the team that lost to LA, not Elliott.

The only things you can argue with are things that have happened in the past and not what they've done while in St. Louis.

Actually he didn't lose his job to Elliott twice in the same season. He lost it last year also, or are you forgetting they still decided to go with Elliott even with Halak sitting on the bench, he didn't get any playing time.

If you truly think Halak is a good goalie then I don't know what to tell you. His glove hand is one of the worst I've ever seen, doesn't have great lateral movement, and has awful rebound control. The only thing he has going for him is great initial positioning.

Doug Armstrong stated that Allen will not be back in the AHL next year and we will not carry 3 goalies all year. Are you saying that they just trade Elliott off for whatever and run with Halak/Allen? Even after his stellar play after his conditioning stint and good showing during the LA series? Even after Halak's "altercation" with Hitch because he wasn't getting playing time?

Halak has more trade value than Elliott and Allen and has a higher cap hit. Even if we don't get Miller we could possibly just move Halak for a 1st and have some cap space to sign one of the center UFAs this year. If Halak is a Blue when preseason comes around I will be shocked.

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06-23-2013, 03:08 AM
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I've said it before and I will say it again : Neither Halak or Elliott will bring the Blues their 1st Stanley Cup. Time to move both in my estimation, Halak would be part of a package to obtain Miller. Elliott won't get much back in return, the Blues tried before the trade deadline and found no interest around the leauge. I am on the bandwagon and hope Armstrong lands Miller, who needs a change in scenery out of Buffalo, with Allen a more then capable backup.


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06-23-2013, 04:25 AM
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Ah yes, I see that Halak's 2010 playoff performance is still being used as an argument. By the time we reach the 2014 playoffs, we will be 4 years removed from that where Halak has only played 2 playoff games. Seriously, lay it to rest.

Not sure how anyone can trust or feel comfortable with a guy that cannot even stay healthy, and YES, has lost his starting jobs multiple times. That happened, it's not debatable.

Elliott has done more for us because he's done everything asked of him...he's stayed healthy, and played great when called upon (despite his horrid 7 game start this season). He also has had a good attitude... He's been pretty dang consistent here, more so than Halak. Elliott has been way more than we expected. Halak has not been close to what I expected at least.

I'm far more comfortable with Elliott/Allen than Halak/Allen. If we're rolling with Halak/Allen, prepare to be seeing Allen/McKenna? within two weeks after Halak gets injured again.

I agree with the poster above me though. Neither one is the answer in net for this team. We aren't winning a cup with either one, they just aren't good enough to get the job done during crunch time. Elliott is what he is...a great backup goalie who can start for periods and keep the team competitive; but if he has to continuously handle the load in the playoffs, that's not ideal. Props to him for trying his best though since Halak hasn't been around.


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06-23-2013, 09:43 AM
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I would much rather see #1G/Allen than anything involving either Halak or Elliott.

In a perfect world,we acquire Ryan Miller and trade off both Halak and Elliott.

If I'm forced to pick between the two, I'll take Halak.

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06-23-2013, 11:18 AM
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Not a very credible source, but I play hockey with a guy that works at a BMW dealership that supposedly had a convo with Halak. Apparently Jaro doesn't expect to be here much longer. Said he sounded kind of down about it.

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06-23-2013, 11:34 AM
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Not a very credible source, but I play hockey with a guy that works at a BMW dealership that supposedly had a convo with Halak. Apparently Jaro doesn't expect to be here much longer. Said he sounded kind of down about it.
Interesting, very interesting.

Also, from reading this thread, I think a lot of people are not giving Allen enough credit. This guy was the most consistent out of the 3 last year and played well over time. I think Allen can really be a solid 50 game starter next year and can get us to the playoffs if the defense in front of him proves their worth.

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06-23-2013, 12:15 PM
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If you go purely by on-ice performance, I don't think the Blues are obligated to make a goalie move unless a good opportunity is there (and perhaps the hypothetical Miller deal is that).

But there have been hints of off-ice and locker-room concerns, particularly with Halak. Personally, I think this has been exaggerated, but there were some player reactions after his last injury which made me question what the rest of the team thinks of Jaro.

IF (all caps) there is truth to that, I think the off-season moves ARE likely to include a move where Halak head for greener pastures. I believe he's going to be successful for his next team and I won't be disappointed if he is still on the Blues....but not if there is any player discord around it.

Elliott on the other hand seems, even when he's struggling, to be supported by his teammates. I don't hear those "read between the lines" quotes. The fact that he voluntarily went to the AHL for a couple games to get it together was a pretty nice team-oriented move. But its not good club management to draw up some scenario where Elliott is the starter with Allen as the back-up and nothing remotely proven behind them. Elliott deserves credit for getting it back together last season...but what if it happened again and all you've got is Allen?

Allen as a breath of fresh air last season, but it was only because he came in and played at an AVERAGE GOALIE level. A lot of young goalies' performances decline when the league starts to map their tendencies. Allen's future in the NHL remains to be written. I believe he'll eventually be a solid starter in the league, but its too big of a gamble to assume he won't have a drop off. His AHL resume isn't so impressive (lots of mitigating factors) that he makes the Blues current starter expendable.

It sounds like there was a potential deal around Miller with Halak going the other way, just prior to Halak's re-aggravated groin. Could that still be on the table? I'm not too sure. But if you throw out that possibility, I'm not so sure what scenario people imagine that is going to create a more stable, clear upgrade at goal.

Shipping off Elliott is also kind of unnecessary because his salary is so low, and the Blues don't owe him any more years after this. The ONLY reason to do it would be to create a space for Allen. I know Armstrong's been quoted and interpreted to mean that Allen won't go back to the AHL. I think its more likely he will than he won't. And then after Elliott's contract expires next year Allen is the back-up. Or possibly a mid-season trade to bring Allen up depending on how things are playing out.

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06-23-2013, 12:16 PM
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i agree with the poster above, however I think we should phase him into a starter job. Throwing him into a starter role could stunt his progress, I like how Army has let him develop and I hope to see him continue this. Acquiring a goalie to pull a 1a/b job next season or keeping one of our current goalies would be the best for Allen.

And now seeing what Bernier got back to LA, it appears that goalie asking prices are pretty high. Frattin, Scrivens and a 2nd

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06-23-2013, 12:18 PM
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Interesting, very interesting.

Also, from reading this thread, I think a lot of people are not giving Allen enough credit. This guy was the most consistent out of the 3 last year and played well over time. I think Allen can really be a solid 50 game starter next year and can get us to the playoffs if the defense in front of him proves their worth.
I agree about his play but if he gets shelled next year, it could really hurt his career. There is no reason to push him in the goal when we have two guys ahead of him and either one is more than capable of splitting some games with him next season making it a earn the spot kind of deal. We are in a "win now" position but to me, that doesn't mean 2014, it means 2014 and beyond. I do not believe there is any reason why Allen should start 50 games next year.

My vote is either Elliott or Miller (so long as we dont give much up for him) as the 1a/and Allen as the 1b. Just as we could use a stopgap center, the same could be said for a stopgap goaltender

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06-23-2013, 12:21 PM
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[QUOTE=2 Minute Minor;67853251]If you go purely by on-ice performance, I don't think the Blues are obligated to make a goalie move unless a good opportunity is there (and perhaps the hypothetical Miller deal is that).

The reason why I started this with saying that we all know we will is Army saying that Allen will not return to the AHL and he will not carry three goalies next year. I assumed that Jaro or Elliot would be one/s to move, but I'm sure Army is open to moving any of the three

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06-23-2013, 12:29 PM
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The reason why I started this with saying that we all know we will is Army saying that Allen will not return to the AHL and he will not carry three goalies next year. I assumed that Jaro or Elliot would be one/s to move, but I'm sure Army is open to moving any of the three
That isn't what Armstrong said and Allen won't be getting moved. He basically said that Allen had proven himself capable in the NHL. That's all.

The situation with the Wolves is very awkward from our goaltending point of view, so it is unlikely that Allen will be spending any significant amount of time in the AHL next season. It isn't impossible that he starts the year there though.

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