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David Desharnais: Are we being too harsh?

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Old
06-22-2013, 11:09 AM
  #51
MXD
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
some people resort to so much hyperbole to get their point across about desharnais, that they dig themselves into a corner they could never hope to get out of.

so they keep digging.

fact is: he is still progressing as a player.
he's essentially found money so if we resort to trading him later, anything is a bonus
bad fit. although with gionta gone next year, it might not be so much of a problem anymore
he still has issues that he needs to work out as a player
yes, if anything, we should listening to offers
we need to be a bit more patient
or we move him to wing

@ op: yes, we are being a bit too harsh

seriously, i need to stop reading this ******** like we have too many centers... you can never have too many centers! move one to wing. boston i rolling with like 5 centers in their top 9 ffs
Tssss.... Making sense isn't allowed here!!!

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06-22-2013, 01:00 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Harpo View Post
With David's last season, most of us have been disappointed and are calling for his head . Too small, not what we need etc.

Are we giving up too early? Just a quick look at where diminutive forwards were at his age:

Stats at 26:

Brian Gionta
166 games: 37 goals, 28 assists, 65 pts (0.39 ppg)

Martin St-Louis
200 games: 38 goals, 57 assists, 95 pts (0.48 ppg)

Mikhail Grabovski
164 games, 33 goals, 59 assists, 92 pts (0.56 ppg)

David Desharnais
178 games, 34 goals, 77 assists, 111 pts (0.62 ppg)

I wouldn't dream of Desharnais becoming as good as St-Louis, but his path has been pretty much the same so far. Can we give him a year or two before throwing out the towel? We saw what he could do with big wingers like Cole and Pacioretty, maybe putting him on the wing with a bigger center in the future (Galchenyuk, Eller) could do wonders?

Gionta and St-Louis had their breakout year at 27. Not saying Desharnais will have his, but I would give him a couple of years before writing him off.
St. Louis has been a top 10 player since 2004 , eilite vision , hands , and smarts

Hab fans dont even consider DD ever being in that class , thats an insult to one of the best small players of all time

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06-22-2013, 01:02 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Remove Gionta and Bouillon from the picture...

You think that Desharnais is odd man out if we can add two 6'2" players on offense?

Chucky needs to be groomed for another two or three years before being a center.
He is far from being a top-30 center in FO.

In two years, if DD does not give us a pace of 60 points per season, we could trade him.
I do not expect him to get St-Louis numbers but he could certainly get 50-60 points.
2-3 years for Chucky cmon , he will take over at some point next year he is that good

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06-22-2013, 01:10 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
2-3 years for Chucky cmon , he will take over at some point next year he is that good
Not sure about that. He still has lots of work to do, but I think it's fair to say that when he gets there, he's going to be ridiculous. 2 years is my prediction. He has to learn how to win a faceoff first and he needs to fill out. So young, so really it's just that we're lucky he's this talented this early. Once he learns to use his talents at will, he will be deadly. At this point, he's just trying to make the safe plays (which is a good thing) and be responsible. He doesn't yet look at the net when he shoots and for a sniper like him, when he slows the game down (again, 2 years I think), we are going to be in awe. Long time coming for this franchise.

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06-22-2013, 01:10 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
The **** you talking about? I'm saying that argument that we have too many centers is idiotic.

Youre saying that desharnais cannot play a role in a contending team.

Two very different arguments...
I want too many centers that can play a role for me , not one dimensional useless playoff ones

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06-22-2013, 01:14 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Not sure about that. He still has lots of work to do, but I think it's fair to say that when he gets there, he's going to be ridiculous. 2 years is my prediction. He has to learn how to win a faceoff first and he needs to fill out. So young, so really it's just that we're lucky he's this talented this early. Once he learns to use his talents at will, he will be deadly. At this point, he's just trying to make the safe plays (which is a good thing) and be responsible. He doesn't yet look at the net when he shoots and for a sniper like him, when he slows the game down (again, 2 years I think), we are going to be in awe. Long time coming for this franchise.
he will be about 215 pounds at some point , strong, great skater , elite vision , etc..
the training wheels are off , there is no one on this team that can do what he does upfront and no DD or Pleks will stand in his way

this dude will be a superstar and the Oilers and Columbus will regret not taking him

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06-22-2013, 01:34 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I like DD, I think if we didn't already have a bunch of guys under 6 feet in the top 6 he wouldn't even be discussed. It's more a knock on the team make-up then it ever is on DD himself imo.
its the whole picture , we could have 6 Horton`s it doesnt matter
he is not the ideal fit center and he cant play wing with his limitations , couldnt care if he was 5`7" or 6`7"

there are big guys who dont play big or fit a role on teams

Look how the Hawks and Bruins are built , solid top 6 , solid top 4 d , good depth and role players on the bottom 6 , there are no DD`S on those teams , Chiarelli let go of a 6`5" 220 pound Colborne prospect , why cause he had no role with his team , too soft for top 6 , and no jam for bottom 6 , and that is DD almost a foot shorter

I may knock DD on these boards but if he played a role with his skill set I would praise him not bash him

if he hand the hands and speed of St Louis , the grit and hands of Fleury , the 2 way game of Ronning, the skill of Mats Naslund , is he was a preck like Linseman , etc there are many examples of small guys who made solid contributions and were effective and reliable.

DD is what he is , a small one dimensional sheltered , weak defending player who has some skill but will never be a key cog of any good team

made for the regular season , let him get his finesse points and collect his money

but its like MAB on defence , or Kyle Wellwood, etc... you will never win with them

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06-22-2013, 01:54 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
its the whole picture , we could have 6 Horton`s it doesnt matter
he is not the ideal fit center and he cant play wing with his limitations , couldnt care if he was 5`7" or 6`7"

there are big guys who dont play big or fit a role on teams

Look how the Hawks and Bruins are built , solid top 6 , solid top 4 d , good depth and role players on the bottom 6 , there are no DD`S on those teams , Chiarelli let go of a 6`5" 220 pound Colborne prospect , why cause he had no role with his team , too soft for top 6 , and no jam for bottom 6 , and that is DD almost a foot shorter

I may knock DD on these boards but if he played a role with his skill set I would praise him not bash him

if he hand the hands and speed of St Louis , the grit and hands of Fleury , the 2 way game of Ronning, the skill of Mats Naslund , is he was a preck like Linseman , etc there are many examples of small guys who made solid contributions and were effective and reliable.

DD is what he is , a small one dimensional sheltered , weak defending player who has some skill but will never be a key cog of any good team

made for the regular season , let him get his finesse points and collect his money

but its like MAB on defence , or Kyle Wellwood, etc... you will never win with them
I totally agreed with this post. DD really sucked in the playoff. We are not going to win playoff games with DD in the top 6.

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06-22-2013, 01:59 PM
  #59
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He is a non-factor in the playoffs.

He is too small.

Habs need to get bigger.

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06-22-2013, 02:01 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
its the whole picture , we could have 6 Horton`s it doesnt matter
he is not the ideal fit center and he cant play wing with his limitations , couldnt care if he was 5`7" or 6`7"

there are big guys who dont play big or fit a role on teams

Look how the Hawks and Bruins are built , solid top 6 , solid top 4 d , good depth and role players on the bottom 6 , there are no DD`S on those teams , Chiarelli let go of a 6`5" 220 pound Colborne prospect , why cause he had no role with his team , too soft for top 6 , and no jam for bottom 6 , and that is DD almost a foot shorter

I may knock DD on these boards but if he played a role with his skill set I would praise him not bash him

if he hand the hands and speed of St Louis , the grit and hands of Fleury , the 2 way game of Ronning, the skill of Mats Naslund , is he was a preck like Linseman , etc there are many examples of small guys who made solid contributions and were effective and reliable.

DD is what he is , a small one dimensional sheltered , weak defending player who has some skill but will never be a key cog of any good team

made for the regular season , let him get his finesse points and collect his money

but its like MAB on defence , or Kyle Wellwood, etc... you will never win with them
I agree, he'll hang on in the league a while, but unless he changes his game drastically will never get a sniff of a cup. He is the weakest link on whatever team he plays on, and a SC team can't afford to carry the DD's of the league.

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06-22-2013, 02:11 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
St. Louis has been a top 10 player since 2004 , eilite vision , hands , and smarts

Hab fans dont even consider DD ever being in that class , thats an insult to one of the best small players of all time
Nowhere did he say Desharnais is in the same class as St. Louis. Don't make stuff up.

Its a shame when level headed are answered with strawman arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onemorecup
DD is what he is , a small one dimensional sheltered , weak defending player who has some skill but will never be a key cog of any good team
He also has excellent hockey sense and vision and is a very hard worker that has time and again proven he can defeat adversity against stacked odds. How strange that you didn't mention that in your assessment of Desharnais.


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06-22-2013, 02:30 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Nowhere did he say Desharnais is in the same class as St. Louis. Don't make stuff up.

Its a shame when level headed are answered with strawman arguments.



He also has excellent hockey sense and vision and is a very hard worker that has time and again proven he can defeat adversity against stacked odds. How strange that you didn't mention that in your assessment of Desharnais.
Habs will never win the SC with DD in the lineup. Take off your goggles. He is just a plug until they find something better.

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06-22-2013, 02:48 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
Habs will never win the SC with DD in the lineup. Take off your goggles. He is just a plug until they find something better.
Were'd you find that crystal ball of yours? Opinions become facts and the clouded future becomes clear, I love HFboards.

Serious answer : Winning the Stanley Cup depends on so much more than who one of your top9 attackers is. Pens won with quite average Tyler Kennedy on his sophomore season and a decrepit Petr Sykora&Miro Satan on their rosters. Brett Lebda has a cup right and was playing a nearly dynastic team's top6 defense (arguably more important than a top9 attacker). Thats out of memory, just goes to show even SC winning teams aren't filled with PPG players. Desharnais isn't supposed to be our top center anway, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having him as a support attacker (ala Hudler with Detroit in 09-09, for instance) since you can't have 12 superstars up front. We'd never win the Stanley Cup with Prust as a first line RW yet he's a very useful player, for instance. And all of that is true if Desharnais doesn't get better, and him getting better is definitely a possibility regardless of what the ''what have you done lately'' crew thinks.


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06-22-2013, 02:56 PM
  #64
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I don't mind Desharnais but he needs another big winger on his line...
I don't like that he get tossed out of the faceoff circle EVERY time!
he's too easily knocked off the puck.


I'm looking for a bounce back year from him!

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06-22-2013, 03:05 PM
  #65
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Yes, we are being too harsh. But trim all the excess hyperbole and reduce the sauce to its core he has to go and that's the bottom line.

As someone mentioned it would be awesome if he has a bit of success early in the year and is traded for good value, but in the real world that will never happen we will keep him at least until the TDL to see where the team goes. Markov is in the same boat.

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06-22-2013, 03:14 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Were'd you find that crystal ball of yours? Opinions become facts and the clouded future becomes clear, I love HFboards.

Serious answer : Winning the Stanley Cup depends on so much more than who one of your top9 attackers is. Pens won with quite average Tyler Kennedy on his sophomore season and a decrepit Petr Sykora&Miro Satan on their rosters. Brett Lebda has a cup right and was playing a nearly dynastic team's top6 defense (arguably more important than a top9 attacker). Thats out of memory, just goes to show even SC winning teams aren't filled with PPG players. Desharnais isn't supposed to be our top center anway, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having him as a support attacker (ala Hudler with Detroit in 09-09, for instance) since you can't have 12 superstars up front. We'd never win the Stanley Cup with Prust as a first line RW yet he's a very useful player, for instance. And all of that is true if Desharnais doesn't get better, and him getting better is definitely a possibility regardless of what the ''what have you done lately'' crew thinks.
DD isn't a superstar and he sure as hell isn't a roleplayer.

So where does he fit?

And yes I will be right about DD. It's so painfully obvious that you don't need a crystal ball.

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06-22-2013, 03:14 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by MonkeyBusiness View Post
I don't even care about Desharnais anymore, it's obvious he's just a safety net until Gachenyuk is ready. He's as good as gone once Galchenyuk takes his spot.
The problem is that people on forums like this might think certain things are perfectly obvious and such, but the people who count, MANAGEMENT, gave this guy a four-year contract at middle-big bucks. This indicates to me that they were NOT thinking that he would be gone soon.

Having said all of that, I think of Lars Eller as a luxury third line centreman, but his real role where he might just absolutely shine is as the LW on the number one defensive-counterattack line, with Plekanec at centre. They would always have two centremen for faceoffs in their own zone, and Eller will get more minutes that way.

Assuming we don't get a UFA top-6 forward, here is what I see as a good balance:

Off-1 Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
Def-1 Eller-Plekanec-Gionta
Off-2 Bourque-Desharnais-Prust
Def-2 Moen-Halpern/UFA vet-White

As a third line playing 12 minutes, the Desharnais line could outscore other teams' third line, with Prust doing the C work in the defensive zone, but allowing Desharnais to be the puck distributor on offence.

I would not be afraid to have Chuckie out there for 17 minutes or so, as it is Pleks' line that will get the toughest assignments.

In-season, the top 6 scoring guys get to play the PP, at the moment I am thinking the whole Off-1 line plus Pleks and Bourque and maybe DD if he gets his touch back.

For PK, Gionta/Moen/Eller/Pleks/Prust/Halpern.

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06-22-2013, 03:27 PM
  #68
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The problem is that people on forums like this might think certain things are perfectly obvious and such, but the people who count, MANAGEMENT, gave this guy a four-year contract at middle-big bucks. This indicates to me that they were NOT thinking that he would be gone soon.

Having said all of that, I think of Lars Eller as a luxury third line centreman, but his real role where he might just absolutely shine is as the LW on the number one defensive-counterattack line, with Plekanec at centre. They would always have two centremen for faceoffs in their own zone, and Eller will get more minutes that way.

Assuming we don't get a UFA top-6 forward, here is what I see as a good balance:

Off-1 Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
Def-1 Eller-Plekanec-Gionta
Off-2 Bourque-Desharnais-Prust
Def-2 Moen-Halpern/UFA vet-White

As a third line playing 12 minutes, the Desharnais line could outscore other teams' third line, with Prust doing the C work in the defensive zone, but allowing Desharnais to be the puck distributor on offence.

I would not be afraid to have Chuckie out there for 17 minutes or so, as it is Pleks' line that will get the toughest assignments.

In-season, the top 6 scoring guys get to play the PP, at the moment I am thinking the whole Off-1 line plus Pleks and Bourque and maybe DD if he gets his touch back.

For PK, Gionta/Moen/Eller/Pleks/Prust/Halpern.
That means nothing and I have made my point in my previous comment, I will not argue with someone who wants to put Eller at LW. It's just not worth my time, it wouldn't be smart at all and won't happen. If you really don't understand and I must explain it to you the 4 year deal is a very smart move by management, it's a solid cap hit and when Galchenyuk is ready to take that role Desharnais can then be traded. It's funny how some of you think that because he was signed he can't be traded in a couple of years.

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06-22-2013, 03:28 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Nowhere did he say Desharnais is in the same class as St. Louis. Don't make stuff up.

Its a shame when level headed are answered with strawman arguments.



He also has excellent hockey sense and vision and is a very hard worker that has time and again proven he can defeat adversity against stacked odds. How strange that you didn't mention that in your assessment of Desharnais.
Define excellent hockey sense and vision???

Galchenyuk got an excellent hockey sense and vision....DD is nowhere near him, not even close. Subban got an excellent hockey sense and vision......DD is nowhere near him either.

If a player got a good hockey sense, that player will know how to play defense....and DD totally sucks at D.
As for the vision goes, well those players should really shine during Powerplay...DD didn't shine at all during PP.
Actually, he only manage to score 2 goals in his last 77 games (one of which was on a 5 on 3).

Vision and Hockey sense are the ONLY thing that keep DD in this league, but it doesn't mean they are excellent

His so-called hockey sense and vision are NOTHING if he can't play with the puck and control it...and that's exactly what is happening with him.

He is a very hard worker, he got great offensive skills,,,,,,but that's not good enough to compensate for all those things he lack of.

Micheal Ryder.....good offensive skills but pretty much sucks at everything else.
David Desharnais....good offensive skills but pretty much sucks at everything else.

I know....Ryder isn't a hard worker, so with hard work, he might get better
Desharnais always worked really hard.....still sucks with that hard work so let's hope it stays that way at least.

But for me Ryder = DD
And still.....i think Ryder got better offensive skills


Last edited by Milhouse40: 06-22-2013 at 03:34 PM.
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06-22-2013, 03:47 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
The problem is that people on forums like this might think certain things are perfectly obvious and such, but the people who count, MANAGEMENT, gave this guy a four-year contract at middle-big bucks. This indicates to me that they were NOT thinking that he would be gone soon.

Having said all of that, I think of Lars Eller as a luxury third line centreman, but his real role where he might just absolutely shine is as the LW on the number one defensive-counterattack line, with Plekanec at centre. They would always have two centremen for faceoffs in their own zone, and Eller will get more minutes that way.

Assuming we don't get a UFA top-6 forward, here is what I see as a good balance:

Off-1 Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
Def-1 Eller-Plekanec-Gionta
Off-2 Bourque-Desharnais-Prust
Def-2 Moen-Halpern/UFA vet-White

As a third line playing 12 minutes, the Desharnais line could outscore other teams' third line, with Prust doing the C work in the defensive zone, but allowing Desharnais to be the puck distributor on offence.

I would not be afraid to have Chuckie out there for 17 minutes or so, as it is Pleks' line that will get the toughest assignments.

In-season, the top 6 scoring guys get to play the PP, at the moment I am thinking the whole Off-1 line plus Pleks and Bourque and maybe DD if he gets his touch back.

For PK, Gionta/Moen/Eller/Pleks/Prust/Halpern.
Then you got 2 center on your top 9 that can't really play defense.
Galchenyuk will be able, but not right now.....not for a couple of years.

So if you want Galchenyuk as fast as possible in the midlle, your other top 9 center should be to take defensive responsabilities.

Putting Eller on the wings is an options....but not a good one.
Eller is the only center able to give time and space to his winger.

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06-22-2013, 04:59 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
St. Louis has been a top 10 player since 2004 , eilite vision , hands , and smarts

Hab fans dont even consider DD ever being in that class , thats an insult to one of the best small players of all time
DD has vision, hands and smarts.
St. Louis is faster South-North but I really like East-West of DD.
Also St. Louis is a better shooter.

One could say that St. Louis started to appear in the top-30 in 2002-2003 when he got 70 points in 82 games.
At that time, St. Louis was in his fourth season in NHL and 27.

Time will tell but we have seen very good from DD in the previous two seasons.

I would actually compare both:
  • 178GP - 34G - 77A - 111P
  • 200GP - 38G - 57A - 95P

So the debate will go on for at least a year or two.

Real problem is that we have three small forwards whereas TBL had only one among their forwards.
They also had four regular (three top-6) with 6'4" and beyond.
When you put DD with MaxPac and Cole, it was our best line until Cole collapsed (probably lack of proper training) this season.

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06-22-2013, 05:00 PM
  #72
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DD is plain garbage.

Too harsh?? No way...

DD is a joke of a hockey player. Too small, too soft, too slow.
He will be off this team, one way or another, by summer next year.

Bergevin ***** the bed when he gave DD that four year contract.

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06-22-2013, 06:17 PM
  #73
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my opinion on the guy and lets face it after watching these playoffs its clear to say you cant win playoff games with a small centers... Desharnais is a very good player during the season and he gets his points up on the pp but in playoff hockey which when the game is more physical and the reff's put there whistles in there pocket we cant win with centers that soft and small.

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06-22-2013, 06:36 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
If a player got a good hockey sense, that player will know how to play defense....and DD totally sucks at D.
Again, a typical hyperbolic HFboards argument. Desharnais' weakness on defense is due in good part to his physique. He is otherwise responsible and rarely caught out of position, which is what hockey sense is about. Desharnais knows how to play defense, he's just not very effective at it. Its in important distinction considering the argument you are trying to make. The players you named as having ''excellent hockey sense and vision'', Galchenyuk and Subban, truly are excellent but they benefit from great physical gifts and they are more skilled. Desharnais would be a high tier player as well if he were taller and stronger.

And I don't really see the comparison with Ryder, they are very different types of players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebinne4pres
Desharnais always worked really hard.....still sucks with that hard work so let's hope it stays that way at least.
Top20 NHL center in point in his first full season with 60pt and top40 in his second. I don't consider first or second line NHL centers ''sucky''. Its a perfect case of ridiculous management of expectations by fans, at 3.5m he doesn't have to score a point per game to be ''decent''. Expecting 50pt a year is perfectly reasonable, and a 50pt producing NHLer is not ''sucky'' no matter how you put it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL
Too harsh?? No way...

DD is a joke of a hockey player.
Thanks for proving this thread is legitimate. ''Joke of a hockey player'', give me a break.


Last edited by FlyingKostitsyn: 06-22-2013 at 06:50 PM.
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06-22-2013, 06:38 PM
  #75
Watsatheo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
The problem is that people on forums like this might think certain things are perfectly obvious and such, but the people who count, MANAGEMENT, gave this guy a four-year contract at middle-big bucks. This indicates to me that they were NOT thinking that he would be gone soon.

Having said all of that, I think of Lars Eller as a luxury third line centreman, but his real role where he might just absolutely shine is as the LW on the number one defensive-counterattack line, with Plekanec at centre. They would always have two centremen for faceoffs in their own zone, and Eller will get more minutes that way.

Assuming we don't get a UFA top-6 forward, here is what I see as a good balance:

Off-1 Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
Def-1 Eller-Plekanec-Gionta
Off-2 Bourque-Desharnais-Prust
Def-2 Moen-Halpern/UFA vet-White

As a third line playing 12 minutes, the Desharnais line could outscore other teams' third line, with Prust doing the C work in the defensive zone, but allowing Desharnais to be the puck distributor on offence.

I would not be afraid to have Chuckie out there for 17 minutes or so, as it is Pleks' line that will get the toughest assignments.

In-season, the top 6 scoring guys get to play the PP, at the moment I am thinking the whole Off-1 line plus Pleks and Bourque and maybe DD if he gets his touch back.

For PK, Gionta/Moen/Eller/Pleks/Prust/Halpern.
What if Eller can keep developing into a bigger version/mold of Plekanec? Is it worth potentially stunting development in a potential big top 6 center to replace Plekanec in a few years? Eller has steadily improved in every facet of the game and showed a lot of his detractors that they don't know much about him year after year (went from nothing more than a bottom 6 player/no offensive upside/not creative/not worthy of big minutes to one of the league's top ES producing centers last season). Even his faceoffs has been steadily improving year after year to the point he was almost at 50% last season (~43 to ~47 to ~50). I don't think it'd be wise to move him to wing, at worst he's going to be a top end 3rd line center. Not sure it's unreasonable to suggest he can still improve.


Last edited by Watsatheo: 06-22-2013 at 06:43 PM.
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