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Howe, Orr, Gretzky and a time machine.

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Old
06-15-2013, 04:27 PM
  #1
PSGJ
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Howe, Orr, Gretzky and a time machine.

So, we'll take a time machine and go back in time to fetch 25 year old Howe, Orr and Gretzky. We'll give them a few months to work out during the summer. What would they be able to accomplish in the NHL?

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06-15-2013, 09:32 PM
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ozzie
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Howe would be a physical monster in any era and an athletic freak, from everything I've seen and read.

While Howe is usually #4 for me in rankings, he would transition well in the NHL of now, 10 years ago and 20 years ago.

When you talk of 5 tool players, Howe is the poster boy.

I don't mean to insult Howe, so please take this with a grain of salt.

Howe would be like the Hart winning Messier of 1989/90 but on a more regular basis. Breaking 100 points yearly, 45G 80A type player with 100+ PIM and a solid 2 way game.

In short I think Messier peak, his best seasons and his leadership would be Howe's average type year on a regular basis.

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06-15-2013, 10:51 PM
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All 3 would be incredible.

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06-15-2013, 11:08 PM
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Darth Yoda
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I would guess that Bobby Orr's default total in his prime today would be 100 points, probably more like just above that.

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06-16-2013, 02:20 AM
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tazzy19
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No two line off sides and no clutching and grabbing...and more power plays than he enjoyed in his prime? Gretzky would be hitting a 150-170 points on a regular basis -- and, one again, lapping the rest of the NHL...in some cases, winning the scoring title with his assists alone.

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06-16-2013, 11:45 AM
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Dennis Bonvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
No two line off sides and no clutching and grabbing...and more power plays than he enjoyed in his prime? Gretzky would be hitting a 150-170 points on a regular basis -- and, one again, lapping the rest of the NHL...in some cases, winning the scoring title with his assists alone.
More power plays today? I don't think so.

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06-16-2013, 12:19 PM
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tazzy19
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
More power plays today? I don't think so.
I think you misread my point. My point that Gretzky in his prime was playing for the Oilers, who happened to have the least (or one of the least) amount of power play opportunities in the NHL every single year during Gretzky's 9 years there. If you look at the amount of power plays teams are getting per game this past year, for example, you'll find they actually had more power play opportunities than did most of those 80s' Oilers teams.

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06-16-2013, 05:10 PM
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Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
I think you misread my point. My point that Gretzky in his prime was playing for the Oilers, who happened to have the least (or one of the least) amount of power play opportunities in the NHL every single year during Gretzky's 9 years there. If you look at the amount of power plays teams are getting per game this past year, for example, you'll find they actually had more power play opportunities than did most of those 80s' Oilers teams.
Really?

I would have never thought that.

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06-16-2013, 10:55 PM
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Fred Taylor
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
I think you misread my point. My point that Gretzky in his prime was playing for the Oilers, who happened to have the least (or one of the least) amount of power play opportunities in the NHL every single year during Gretzky's 9 years there. If you look at the amount of power plays teams are getting per game this past year, for example, you'll find they actually had more power play opportunities than did most of those 80s' Oilers teams.
Haven't powerplays been going down since 05-06? Gretzky wasn't too reliant on the powerplay anyway, not as much as Lemieux. He absolutely dominated even strength scoring. All three players would be hands down the best today, plucked right out of their primes and dropped into the current NHL. 150-160 points a year for Gretzky, 120+ for Howe, and 100+ for Orr.

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06-16-2013, 10:59 PM
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Dissonance
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
I think you misread my point. My point that Gretzky in his prime was playing for the Oilers, who happened to have the least (or one of the least) amount of power play opportunities in the NHL every single year during Gretzky's 9 years there. If you look at the amount of power plays teams are getting per game this past year, for example, you'll find they actually had more power play opportunities than did most of those 80s' Oilers teams.
Seems doubtful this would make much difference.

It's true that the Oilers tended to get a below-average number of power play opportunities--and were often at the bottom of the league in this regard. But those '80s teams were still getting far more power plays than just about any team gets today.

Case in point: In 1981-82. the Oilers got 341 power play opportunities (in 80 games). That would have put them first in 2010-11 and second in 2011-2012.

The lowest the Oilers ever got was 293 opportunities, in 1984-85. That would have put them fifth last season and 13th the season before.

-----------

In any case, Gretzky's numbers weren't hugely dependent on power-play opportunities--when the Oilers got a huge boost in opportunities in 1988 (more than 400), Gretzky's numbers didn't surge along with them. He was very different from Lemieux in this regard.

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06-17-2013, 12:26 AM
  #11
tazzy19
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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
Seems doubtful this would make much difference.

It's true that the Oilers tended to get a below-average number of power play opportunities--and were often at the bottom of the league in this regard. But those '80s teams were still getting far more power plays than just about any team gets today.

Case in point: In 1981-82. the Oilers got 341 power play opportunities (in 80 games). That would have put them first in 2010-11 and second in 2011-2012.

The lowest the Oilers ever got was 293 opportunities, in 1984-85. That would have put them fifth last season and 13th the season before.

-----------

In any case, Gretzky's numbers weren't hugely dependent on power-play opportunities--when the Oilers got a huge boost in opportunities in 1988 (more than 400), Gretzky's numbers didn't surge along with them. He was very different from Lemieux in this regard.
I would suspect that Gretzky's even strength totals went down in 1988 from his early to mid 80s numbers. He no longer had Paul Coffey, after all. You'll find that Gretzky had an amazing power play percentage. It's just that he didn't have as many PP opportunities as Lemieux. Blog of Mike did a great break down on it a while back. Maybe someone can dig up that thread....

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06-17-2013, 10:28 AM
  #12
11MilesPerJohan
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I hope that someday someone invents time travel for just such a reason.

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06-22-2013, 03:25 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
In any case, Gretzky's numbers weren't hugely dependent on power-play opportunities--when the Oilers got a huge boost in opportunities in 1988 (more than 400), Gretzky's numbers didn't surge along with them. He was very different from Lemieux in this regard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
I would suspect that Gretzky's even strength totals went down in 1988 from his early to mid 80s numbers. He no longer had Paul Coffey, after all. You'll find that Gretzky had an amazing power play percentage. It's just that he didn't have as many PP opportunities as Lemieux. Blog of Mike did a great break down on it a while back. Maybe someone can dig up that thread....
The requested table and a link to the thread are quoted below.

To dissonance's point that that Gretzky didn't score more on the PP with more PPO in 1988, Gretzky only played 64 games in 1988, yet approached his career high in PP points, and surpassed his total from 1987.

If that weren't the case, then he and the Oilers would have to have gotten worse on the PP.

Season Tm Games PP G PP A PP Pts Team PPO Avg PPO Team PP% NHL avg PP Rank
1979-80 EDM 79 13 23 36 282 280 21.63 21.86 10
1980-81 EDM 80 15 37 52 347 340 22.19 22.53 12
1981-82 EDM 80 18 39 57 341 320 25.22 22.85 5
1982-83 EDM 80 18 36 54 294 310 29.25 22.92 1
1983-84 EDM 74 20 25 45 318 336 25.47 21.91 2
1984-85 EDM 80 8 35 43 293 321 25.26 22.2 2
1985-86 EDM 80 11 42 53 295 370 26.44 22.08 1
1986-87 EDM 79 13 33 46 318 344 22.01 20.98 7
1987-88 EDM 64 9 40 49 437 402 21.89 20.29 7
1988-89 LAK 78 11 42 53 395 403 20.76 20.99 11
1989-90 LAK 73 10 30 40 343 367 22.16 20.77 8
1990-91 LAK 78 8 51 59 391 366 20.46 19.44 6
1991-92 LAK 74 12 42 54 411 402 19.22 19.24 10
1992-93 LAK 45 0 24 24 507 443 20.12 19.57 11
1993-94 LAK 81 14 47 61 444 407 20.72 18.64 7
1994-95 LAK 48 3 19 22 200 209 17.5 17.73 13
1996-97 NYR 82 6 25 31 287 336 21.95 16.27 1
1997-98 NYR 82 6 24 30 351 380 17.66 15.08 5
1998-99 NYR 70 3 27 30 348 359 20.4 15.81 2

From another thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
I wholeheartedly disagree.

Unless you think the Gretzky Oilers have to finish #1 every year, they did as well as expected. With Gretzky the Oilers were at or near the top of the League in PP% even with so few opportunities.

The Pens always had an advantage in PPO, and that is the sole reason for their high PPG total in every year except 95-96 when they were indeed destroying teams. The Pens received an average number of PPO or an obsecenly high number. The Oilers received an average number of PPO, or as they did at their peak an obscenely low number of PPO (130 fewer than the Pens in 1986.)

For sustained success, the Pens never put together a 4-year stretch like the Oilers did between 82-83 and 85-86 where they were as good as the Habs dynasty. (The Habs did have a fairly imbalanced league to play in, as other top teams were hitting 30% too.) The only time they come close is 95-96 and 96-97, finishing at #1 and #2, but that's still not as good as two #1s and two #2s.

Lemieux was a great PP player, but his large PP totals are more the result of an unusually high amount of PPO than it is a high PP% (not that it was BAD or anything). Lemieux teams couldn't consistently outperform Gretzky teams in PP%, even in the 90s when Lemieux had the far stronger supporting cast.

Oilers Table
Year Oilers PP% Rank Pens PP% Rank NHL avg Oilers PPO Pens PPO Avg PPO Oiler Rk Pens Rk Gretzky GP Mario GP
79-80 21.63 10 19.85 14 21.86 282 262 280 10 18 79 0
80-81 22.19 12 23.00 11 22.53 347 400 340 8 2 80 0
81-82 25.22 5 24.50 8 22.85 341 404 320 6 2 80 0
82-83 29.25 1 22.63 9 22.92 294 358 310 15 2 80 0
83-84 25.47 2 20.59 16 21.91 318 340 336 15 10 74 0
84-85 25.26 2 17.08 21 22.20 293 363 321 19 2 80 73
85-86 26.44 1 21.88 12 22.08 295 425 370 21 1 80 79
86-87 22.01 7 19.58 14 20.98 318 378 344 19 3 79 63
87-88 21.89 7 22.00 6 20.29 437 500 402 16 1 64 77
88-89 19.81 16 24.24 3 20.99 419 491 403 7 1 0 76
89-90 20.64 12 21.34 10 20.77 407 403 367 3 4 0 59

Kings Table
Year Kings PP% Rank Pens PP% Rank NHL avg Kings PPO Pens PPO Avg PPO Kings Rk Pens Rk Gretzky GP Mario GP
87-88 21.73 8 22.00 6 20.29 474 500 402 5 1 0 77
88-89 20.76 11 24.24 3 20.99 395 491 403 11 1 78 76
89-90 22.16 8 21.34 10 20.77 343 403 367 17 4 73 59
90-91 20.46 6 22.94 3 19.44 391 388 366 5 7 78 26
91-92 19.22 10 21.75 4 19.24 411 423 402 11 6 74 64
92-93 20.12 11 23.86 2 19.57 507 440 443 2 14 45 60
93-94 20.72 7 18.81 14 18.64 444 404 407 2 16 81 22
94-95 17.50 13 19.00 10 17.73 200 221 209 19 7 48 0
95-96 17.96 14 25.95 1 17.93 401 420 413 18 11 62 70
96-97 13.61 25 21.83 2 16.27 338 339 336 12 11 0 76

Rangers Table
Year NYR PP% Rank Pens PP% Rank NHL avg NYR PPO Pens PPO Avg PPO NYR Rk Pens Rk Gretzky GP Mario GP
96-97 21.95 1 21.83 2 16.27 287 339 336 26 11 82 76
97-98 17.66 5 16.46 11 15.08 351 407 380 24 4 82 0
98-99 20.40 2 17.91 7 15.81 348 363 359 17 14 70 0
99-00 16.92 10 15.61 20 16.15 325 346 331 18 7 0 0
00-01 17.91 11 20.27 5 16.64 363 375 376 21 15 0 43
01-02 14.72 21 14.03 25 15.77 326 335 338 22 19 0 24
02-03 x x 18.33 7 16.43 x 360 363 x 16 0 67
03-04 x x 18.06 7 16.46 x 360 348 x 10 0 10
05-06 x x 18.99 6 17.68 x 495 480 x 11 0 26
06-07 x x 20.30 5 17.58 x 463 398 x 1 0 0

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Old
06-22-2013, 03:34 PM
  #14
Bure All Day
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Originally Posted by 11MilesPerJohan View Post
I hope that someday someone invents time travel for just such a reason.
this is wrong for so many reasons..

more realistic would be to make a clone, even then you can't expect a 100% perfect copy of the player etc.

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Old
06-22-2013, 03:38 PM
  #15
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Thought question:

Does 25 y old Gretzky go to Edmonton, 25 y old Howe go to Detroit and 25 y old Orr go to Boston? Or do they get drafted into this NHL Entry draft to Colorado, Florida, Tampa Bay...

In the first case...

Hall-Gretzky-Yakupov; Franzen-Datsyuk-Howe; Chara-Orr

Without Kurri, does Gretzky still get his points? Does Orr work well off Chara? Does Howe and Datsyuk make sweet symphonic music?


My answer's yes to all three. But I think it would be fun to think about.

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06-22-2013, 05:53 PM
  #16
SaintPatrick33
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Really?

I would have never thought that.
It's true. Even though in Gretzky's era there were more PPs per game than there are today, Gretzky's Oilers were routinely at or near the bottom of the league in PP opportunities. Kind of an odd but true sort of thing.

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