HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Vancouver Canucks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Armchair GM Thread - XLV

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-23-2013, 12:32 AM
  #901
Hardyvan123
[email protected]
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
You partially answered your own question...

Add that he hasn't been the same since the first concussion, had a concussion scare at the end of last year, has regressed two years in a row, had a huge minus last year, and is paid like a superstar and you have the complete answer.

I'd do the ridiculous trade idea including the 5th overall but generally I don't value Skinner that highly.
Then if injuries are the concern people should stop trying to move Kesler for more than he is worth as well.

His plus/minus doesn't concern me a great deal as he is only 21 and defense can be taught. Jordan Stall was minus 18 on that team that lost it's #1 goalie and has a pretty weak D corps as well.

If we were able to get a talent like Skinner straight up for Edler we should do it IMO. Even with the injury concerns.

Hardyvan123 is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 12:44 AM
  #902
Hardyvan123
[email protected]
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
There has been a discussion about DET current prospects vs. VAN's own. I'd advise doing a search for it.

Also, as has been stated and proven by an independent accounting of prospect tracking (anyone else have the link handy to the site of drafting evaluation per team?), the Canucks are at or above the median level in producing NHLers. This site also accounts for quality of NHLers produced (before that becomes a tangent).

The Canucks are following the model. Gillis has relayed as much. The difference is that they have kept too few picks, and DET target more players based on skill. The Canucks do the same, but have taken chances on a few guys that have a lower end upside, but more size. The general methodology is the same though. Also, we cannot compare DET of two eras ago to DET now. Following what DET is doing now is much more pertinent.
Not really sure as to how and for what period you are measuring the Canucks and Red Wing prospects here.

The Canucks 04 draft was better but if we use 3,4, or 5 years blocks the Red Wings still have more success even around the 04 draft (in 3,4 or 5 year blocks).

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00008756.html

Hardyvan123 is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 12:45 AM
  #903
Vankiller Whale
Fire Benning
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,938
vCash: 1800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Then if injuries are the concern people should stop trying to move Kesler for more than he is worth as well.

His plus/minus doesn't concern me a great deal as he is only 21 and defense can be taught. Jordan Stall was minus 18 on that team that lost it's #1 goalie and has a pretty weak D corps as well.

If we were able to get a talent like Skinner straight up for Edler we should do it IMO. Even with the injury concerns.
Wouldn't do it for Edler. I think Edler is the better player and has the higher upside.

Would much rather do Bieksa++(or in that three-way I proposed earlier)

Vankiller Whale is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 01:28 AM
  #904
604
Registered User
 
604's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,410
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Then if injuries are the concern people should stop trying to move Kesler for more than he is worth as well.

His plus/minus doesn't concern me a great deal as he is only 21 and defense can be taught. Jordan Stall was minus 18 on that team that lost it's #1 goalie and has a pretty weak D corps as well.

If we were able to get a talent like Skinner straight up for Edler we should do it IMO. Even with the injury concerns.
Well, if you can brush off all the issues, then nothing is wrong with him.

He is certainly talented and fast...that being said, I'd be unwilling to take a risk on a guy making $5.725M long-term who was outscored by Hansen last year.

The difference between Skinner and Kesler is that when Kesler is healthy he generally plays pretty a lot better than Skinner did since his injuries...also, his value has definitely taken a hit. His value would be similar to Toews' if he continued to play healthy the way he did in his back to back 70 point seasons.

604 is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 01:31 AM
  #905
Hardyvan123
[email protected]
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Wouldn't do it for Edler. I think Edler is the better player and has the higher upside.

Would much rather do Bieksa++(or in that three-way I proposed earlier)
Well the Canes would prefer stall over Kevin, but ironically speaking of injury concerns...

No idea on why the NYR would take Kevin, a project in Jensen and the 24th pick and lose Stall who is arguably their best young Dman.

I guess if Viggy can convince them that Kevin could thrive in the big apple and that Jensen was the real deal in his opinion, but does Viggy really believe that?

No idea here.

Hardyvan123 is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 01:56 AM
  #906
arttk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Country: Denmark
Posts: 7,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Carolina doesn't make this move so what's the point here.

They can tell us to try and draft a Skinner at 24. Oh ya and they can drafgt an even better player than Skinner at 5 this year.

Edler is a fine NHL Dman but hardly the 15-20 that was mentioned above. He has the potential to be, but at 27 talk about potential means a different thing than potential at 21.
Carolina will run away laughing.

The last time anyone of Edler's caliber was traded was J.Johnson for Jeff Carter.
Edler is better than J.Johnson and Skinner is definitely not better than Jeff Carter and on an even more expensive contract.

You never see top paring D traded and there is a reason for that.

Oh and on top of that, Skinner already has two consecutive concussions, and looking at all the players with concussion problem, it is highly likely that it will take him half a season or a whole season to recover his form, if ever. Not to mention that if he gets another concussion in the next year, that will probably be it for him.

Jeff Skinner without concussion problems would be a great asset, but to trade for a uncertain Jeff Skinner with our top dman is downright stupid.

arttk is online now  
Old
06-23-2013, 02:02 AM
  #907
arttk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Country: Denmark
Posts: 7,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Then if injuries are the concern people should stop trying to move Kesler for more than he is worth as well.

His plus/minus doesn't concern me a great deal as he is only 21 and defense can be taught. Jordan Stall was minus 18 on that team that lost it's #1 goalie and has a pretty weak D corps as well.

If we were able to get a talent like Skinner straight up for Edler we should do it IMO. Even with the injury concerns.
There is a difference between body injuries and concussions. Bones and muscle injuries can heal, people still have no clue what happens with concussion. If it is only 1 concussion and there has been considerable time since it has happened, then maybe it is not as much of a concern. The kid got 2 in 2 years, who the hell knows what happens if he gets one more. He might be one more before he turns into Lindros.

arttk is online now  
Old
06-23-2013, 02:51 AM
  #908
Virtanen2Horvat
BoHorvat53
 
Virtanen2Horvat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,197
vCash: 589
I would keep Edler he is still learning but is good. If anyone is to be traded it is one of the goalies Luongo and if something bizzare happens then Schneider. Anyways I would trade one of those guys for a top 5 draft pick next year or you can make a package and get young players instead. But anyways why I say this is because we really only have 2 years left and this team is going towards a rebuild after that. A high draft pick will help this team in the process. Our best prospects are:

Jensen: Play in the AHL (13/14) play with the Canucks (14/15)

Guance: Play in the AHL for 2 years then call him up

Tanev: Is NHL ready he just has to prove a little this season if resigned

Corrado: Has to prove a bit more but is on a path to success.

Schroeder: Is questionable I don't know if he will fit here with his size and positions are very competitive now.

Kassian: This guy needs to get developed now.

We are gonna need to get higher in the draft and get those picks and we should be off pretty fast and we will have hopefully a pretty good Kesler and the Sedins still and also we will be getting younger like we want. Hopefully Booth can prove to be a good goal scorer for the 2nd line.

Virtanen2Horvat is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 06:10 AM
  #909
Bleach Clean
Moderator
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 19,318
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Not really sure as to how and for what period you are measuring the Canucks and Red Wing prospects here.

The Canucks 04 draft was better but if we use 3,4, or 5 years blocks the Red Wings still have more success even around the 04 draft (in 3,4 or 5 year blocks).

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00008756.html


The only block I'm concerned with is the time under Gillis. Within that time frame, I like what DET has done more, but the strength of the pools are separated by the dearth of picks VAN had overall, more so than the type of players picked at their spots. If Gillis had kept his picks, I think we would be talking about the pools in a very similar light, as they are now (2008-2013).

If you do a search through the prospect thread, a DET vs. VAN comparison was made. Give it a read.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 08:59 AM
  #910
Tiranis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 23,080
vCash: 500
Since Gillis arrived, the Red Wings have 72GP from their draft picks from 2008 and on. Canucks have 112. We can talk about HF rankings or whatever else rankings but there's no saying those will be accurate. They certainly weren't in 04 when Canucks were also ranked bottom 10 and somehow produced better players than half the teams in the Top 10.

(And looking only at draft picks would ignore Tanev who would make that number even higher.)

Tiranis is online now  
Old
06-23-2013, 10:26 AM
  #911
King of the ES*
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,728
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arttk View Post
Carolina will run away laughing.

The last time anyone of Edler's caliber was traded was J.Johnson for Jeff Carter.
Edler is better than J.Johnson and Skinner is definitely not better than Jeff Carter and on an even more expensive contract.

You never see top paring D traded and there is a reason for that.

Oh and on top of that, Skinner already has two consecutive concussions, and looking at all the players with concussion problem, it is highly likely that it will take him half a season or a whole season to recover his form, if ever. Not to mention that if he gets another concussion in the next year, that will probably be it for him.

Jeff Skinner without concussion problems would be a great asset, but to trade for a uncertain Jeff Skinner with our top dman is downright stupid.
Haha, wow.

First of all, when Johnson was traded for Carter, the widespread belief was that CBJ won the deal. Carter was doing nothing in Columbus, and people were talking about how overpaid he is, how bad his contract is, etc. (sound familiar to Skinner, at all?). Calling Skinner "definitely not better" than Carter needs to have context applied to it. Carter is 7 years older. And Skinner's first 3 years in the NHL have been much more productive.

And talking about uncertainty, I guess you'll just continue to ignore Edler's back? That back that he, himself, said, "will probably never be 100%"?

King of the ES* is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 10:28 AM
  #912
Bleach Clean
Moderator
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 19,318
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Haha, wow.

First of all, when Johnson was traded for Carter, the widespread belief was that CBJ won the deal. Carter was doing nothing in Columbus, and people were talking about how overpaid he is, how bad his contract is, etc. (sound familiar to Skinner, at all?). Calling Skinner "definitely not better" than Carter needs to have context applied to it. Carter is 7 years older. And Skinner's first 3 years in the NHL have been much more productive.

And talking about uncertainty, I guess you'll just continue to ignore Edler's back? That back that he, himself, said, "will probably never be 100%"?

What?... ?

JJ was bleeding goals against in LA. He was the black sheep of that defensive group. Carter, even when considered to be doing poorly in CBJ, was still producing goals at a good rate. I didn't once consider JJ to be better.

Oh, and on the point of injury, guess who was constantly injured in PHI, before finally being dealt to CBJ? Yup, Carter.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 10:33 AM
  #913
King of the ES*
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,728
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
What?... ?
It's true. Carter had been playing like garbage in Columbus, and he was moving into "untradeable contract" territory. Believe he got hot right around the deadline, which inflated his numbers somewhat, but it was largely a huge flop and if I recall correctly a lot of Canuck fans where aghast at the notion of trading Schneider for him, which was a rumor.

King of the ES* is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 10:46 AM
  #914
Bleach Clean
Moderator
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 19,318
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
It's true. Carter had been playing like garbage in Columbus, and he was moving into "untradeable contract" territory. Believe he got hot right around the deadline, which inflated his numbers somewhat, but it was largely a huge flop and if I recall correctly a lot of Canuck fans where aghast at the notion of trading Schneider for him, which was a rumor.

Carter may have "flopped" in CBJ, but he had a track record in PHI too. GMs have longer term memory for these types of things, and I'm sure no one read to much into him not working out there. JJ, on the other hand, never was seen on Carter's level. It's why the 1st went with him.

I believe your recollection of this account is not accurate.

Not trading Schneider for him does not mean his value was garbage. It could mean that Schneider's value was also perceived to be very high...

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 11:00 AM
  #915
dave babych returns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,977
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
It's true. Carter had been playing like garbage in Columbus, and he was moving into "untradeable contract" territory.
If you thought this at the time it pretty much just proves that your opinions aren't to be taken seriously.

Edit: it's little wonder that you place far too much value in fabricated narratives given you probably need to explain 'totally inexplicable' things like the fact that Jeff Carter is a vastly better player than Jack Johnson to yourself.


Last edited by dave babych returns: 06-23-2013 at 11:11 AM.
dave babych returns is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 11:00 AM
  #916
Tiranis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 23,080
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
It's true. Carter had been playing like garbage in Columbus, and he was moving into "untradeable contract" territory. Believe he got hot right around the deadline, which inflated his numbers somewhat, but it was largely a huge flop and if I recall correctly a lot of Canuck fans where aghast at the notion of trading Schneider for him, which was a rumor.
Every single knowledgeable person thought CBJ got ripped off. Jack Johnson is one of the worst Top 4 defenders in the whole league. He bleeds goals against whenever he's on the ice. Every single season in LA he finished in the bottom of +/- rankings despite his partners finishing much higher than him. His possession numbers are also atrocious.

Getting rid of Jack Johnson was addition by subtraction. On top of that they got a good player back.

Tiranis is online now  
Old
06-23-2013, 11:57 AM
  #917
King of the ES*
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,728
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Every single knowledgeable person thought CBJ got ripped off. Jack Johnson is one of the worst Top 4 defenders in the whole league. He bleeds goals against whenever he's on the ice. Every single season in LA he finished in the bottom of +/- rankings despite his partners finishing much higher than him. His possession numbers are also atrocious.

Getting rid of Jack Johnson was addition by subtraction. On top of that they got a good player back.
As I recall, Carter wanted out of Columbus, and there were not a lot of hungry buyers due mostly to his contract (sound familiar?), but also because he was just not very good as a BJ. Obviously, bad parameters to be selling, and CBJ getting JJ was a boon. And for all the moaning about how weak defensively he is, this is a guy who has 33 points in 55 games as a BJ. He's a very impactful player.

King of the ES* is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 12:06 PM
  #918
Hardyvan123
[email protected]
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arttk View Post
Carolina will run away laughing.

The last time anyone of Edler's caliber was traded was J.Johnson for Jeff Carter.
Edler is better than J.Johnson and Skinner is definitely not better than Jeff Carter and on an even more expensive contract.

You never see top paring D traded and there is a reason for that.

Oh and on top of that, Skinner already has two consecutive concussions, and looking at all the players with concussion problem, it is highly likely that it will take him half a season or a whole season to recover his form, if ever. Not to mention that if he gets another concussion in the next year, that will probably be it for him.

Jeff Skinner without concussion problems would be a great asset, but to trade for a uncertain Jeff Skinner with our top dman is downright stupid.
Skinner is also 21 and has alot of room to grow while Carter is basically what you get.

Elder isn't hands down better than JJ, they are different players that bring different things to the table but I would rate them pretty close actually.

As for Skinner sure I get the concussions, but really we wouldn't even be talking about him if he didn't have them because he would have better stats and be pretty much unavailable as well.

Post lockout hockey concussions are unfortunately all too common ans thinking about it the Canucks have been really lucky avoiding them, for the most part.

Hardyvan123 is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 12:17 PM
  #919
Hardyvan123
[email protected]
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The only block I'm concerned with is the time under Gillis. Within that time frame, I like what DET has done more, but the strength of the pools are separated by the dearth of picks VAN had overall, more so than the type of players picked at their spots. If Gillis had kept his picks, I think we would be talking about the pools in a very similar light, as they are now (2008-2013).

If you do a search through the prospect thread, a DET vs. VAN comparison was made. Give it a read.
Would that be the current "Prospect Thread XVII" thread, I'll give it a read, although it's pretty hard to compensate for picks Gillis traded away.

Hardyvan123 is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 12:48 PM
  #920
SweedishKeepers
Registered User
 
SweedishKeepers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 613
vCash: 500
Leafs PR ‏@LeafsPR 1m

The #Leafs have acquired Jonathan Bernier from the Kings for Matt Frattin, Ben Scrivens and a 2nd round pick in 2014 or 2015 (Leafs option).

Take Toronto out of the Luongo mix.

SweedishKeepers is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 12:51 PM
  #921
Tiranis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 23,080
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrisonsbeard View Post
Leafs PR ‏@LeafsPR 1m

The #Leafs have acquired Jonathan Bernier from the Kings for Matt Frattin, Ben Scrivens and a 2nd round pick in 2014 or 2015 (Leafs option).

Take Toronto out of the Luongo mix.
Not bad, not great. We'll see how this works out for them, I guess.

Tiranis is online now  
Old
06-23-2013, 12:58 PM
  #922
Vankiller Whale
Fire Benning
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,938
vCash: 1800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrisonsbeard View Post
Leafs PR ‏@LeafsPR 1m

The #Leafs have acquired Jonathan Bernier from the Kings for Matt Frattin, Ben Scrivens and a 2nd round pick in 2014 or 2015 (Leafs option).

Take Toronto out of the Luongo mix.
I never had Toronto in the Luongo mix since Reimer started playing well. I'm surprised they were in the Bernier mix at all. Still, it's a good price for them. Very little risk there.

Vankiller Whale is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 01:01 PM
  #923
Hardyvan123
[email protected]
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrisonsbeard View Post
Leafs PR ‏@LeafsPR 1m

The #Leafs have acquired Jonathan Bernier from the Kings for Matt Frattin, Ben Scrivens and a 2nd round pick in 2014 or 2015 (Leafs option).

Take Toronto out of the Luongo mix.
Wow that kind of tells us how much, or little Lou will get us.

Hardyvan123 is offline  
Old
06-23-2013, 01:03 PM
  #924
m9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,849
vCash: 50
Good trade for Toronto, they didn't give up much.

This was the best case scenario for the Canucks IMO. Keeps Florida, Minnesota, Philadelphia, and NYI in the goalie market.

m9 is online now  
Old
06-23-2013, 01:03 PM
  #925
BerSTUzzi
Registered User
 
BerSTUzzi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,249
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Wow that kind of tells us how much, or little Lou will get us.
but it does tell you how much more you'd get for Schneider.

BerSTUzzi is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:13 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2016 All Rights Reserved.