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Old
06-21-2013, 07:10 AM
  #76
dmanfish90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Cutter View Post
Exactly, we have to draw the line at one point on when we're going to get bigger. We just signed Desharnais to a contract extension so that means that he's not going anywhere for a while. Gallagher is a player we can build around so already there that's two players that are amongst the smallest players in the league. Gionta has offered us some honest hockey but I think after this season is time is up. He's breaking down physically and he's not that good offensively anymore. That's without taking in consideration that I don't know many teams who would use a 5'7 player on their 4th line. Someone brought up Recchi's situation with Boston, at guess at that point in Recchi's career him and Gionta were similar players in terms of offensive production but Recchi was still 3 inches taller and was surrounded by bigger players on the Bruins.
I agree with everything you said except the bold. When BG is healthy (I mean truly healthy) he was our highest goal scorer...consistently. In 61 GP in his 1st year, BG put up 28 G. In his second year in a full 82 game season, he put up 29 G (which is closer to his regular production range, year 1 him, Cammy, Gomer played surprisingly better than I expected them to play (moreso Gomer than Cammy))

2011-12 was a down year, scoring 8 G in 31 GP. This year he was back to his usually self, scoring 14 G in 48 GP.

You have to take Gio for what he is: a goal-scorer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
How much PP time did Eller or Gallagher get instead of Desharnais and Gionta?

How much ES time did Gallagher or Pacioretty get with our best centre, Plekanec? How much did Gionta get?

His production is awful and he doesn't bring anything special to make up for it - he's not a big body, he's not a sniper, he's not "smart with the puck, in fact his presence really hinders possible line combinations due to the overabdunace of smurfs as it is.

He sucks at his role, 37th overall in RW scoring on the 2nd best team in the league, with massive PP time and playing with our number 1 centre for 5M is CRAP.
For what he's paid, it's not ideal. He's a 25-25 scorer when he's healthy. Definitely not crap.

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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
He was on the PP instead of Eller or Gallagher because the coach felt like he was the best option. He's scored 79 goals in 222 games with the Habs. That's on average 29 goals a season. If that's what you consider awful production
Great post.

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06-21-2013, 08:38 AM
  #77
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people here live a fantasy that you can insert some rookie with "potential" in and he will be the next claude giroux. Maybe we can get Andrei Kostitsyn back and he will finally breakout?

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06-21-2013, 09:56 AM
  #78
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I'd bet my house that if Gionta was 6'2", this thread would be dead considering his production, leadership and determination... including his salary.

It just goes to show...


Last edited by Habsterix*: 06-21-2013 at 10:02 AM.
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06-21-2013, 09:58 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
people here live a fantasy that you can insert some rookie with "potential" in and he will be the next claude giroux. Maybe we can get Andrei Kostitsyn back and he will finally breakout?
You must have missed the proposals to bring him back in the offseason thread a few weeks back.

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06-21-2013, 10:02 AM
  #80
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^good lord...

Size is kind of overrated anyway, it certainly has advantages but isn't the end-all. If you actually watch Gionta you would see 1) he is VERY strong, and 2) he leverages his short size (low centre of gravity), big strength and quick hands very well to win battles along boards and in dirty areas in front of net, which is where he scores most of his goals, rebounding and deflections.

Marty St. Louis does the same thing (but obviously a lot more skilled than Gionta at playmaking). Small, strong & quick (Gionta, Gallagher, St-Louis) has some serious advantages in certain situations. Small, weak & slow, no so much (Desharnais)

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06-21-2013, 10:03 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
You must have missed the proposals to bring him back in the offseason thread a few weeks back.
Ya that was pretty sad, can't believe some wanted him back. Kovalev up to a certain point I even thought about it just because it was him but Kostitsyn

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06-21-2013, 11:47 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I'd bet my house that if Gionta was 6'2", this thread would be dead considering his production, leadership and determination... including his salary.

It just goes to show...
What's your point? If Desharnais was Galchenyuk's height people would get off his back but it's not the case here. There are players that bring the same intangibles 20-25G, 45-50 pts and leadership that are not 5'7.

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06-21-2013, 11:55 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I'd bet my house that if Gionta was 6'2", this thread would be dead considering his production, leadership and determination... including his salary.

It just goes to show...
But he's not 6'2. He's five foot nothing...

Dude, that whole makeover with him Cammy and Gomez was a total fiasco. There's nothing wrong with Gionta as an individual player but we've teamed him with other small players... makes NO sense.

What does make sense is letting some of these guys go now and starting over with some size. I don't need us to be the biggest in the league but we've got to stop trying to win with a bunch of smurfs... it won't work.

Somebody's got to go. Is it going to be DD? Unlikely as we just signed him. Plex isn't going anywhere and neither is Gallagher. That leaves Gionta who has one year left on his deal. Subban, Max and Price are coming into their prime years now. I don't want to see them wasted. We're spinning our wheels with these small teams and it has to change if we want to win. Nothing against Gionta but it's about balance.

And if he was 6'2 his team never would've let him go in the first place.

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06-21-2013, 12:43 PM
  #84
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I don't mind re-signing him. However, I wish he'd stop shooting from 50 feet. He just needs to stick to what made him productive during this season more consistently; he needs to be positioned near the net for rebounds and deflections. He's a god-awful sniper and not a very good puck mover, but remains a very good garbage goal scorer.

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06-21-2013, 01:37 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Gionta offers consistent offensive production and with Ryder gone his numbers will be needed. Unless Bergevin pulls a rabbit out of a hat and finds a 30 goal scorer I see Brian here for longer than most will want. He might walk away at end of contract but honestly I don't see him gone before that. I am ok with that if the team is in the playoff picture next year.
I agree. Gionta is still very productive.......right now. And that's why Bergevin needs to shop him around and trade him for a player of value that addresses our needs.

After his contract is up, he will be an asset that has lost considerable value because of his age.

However, with all of that said, I agree with you and realistically believe that he will still be on the team next season.

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06-21-2013, 01:39 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I'd bet my house that if Gionta was 6'2", this thread would be dead considering his production, leadership and determination... including his salary.

It just goes to show...
You are correct sir.

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06-21-2013, 01:46 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I open with two questions:

1) Should Bergevin resign Gionta? Ifso, for how much money?
2) Do you expect Bergevin to resign Gionta?
No, he's 34....be 35 when his contract is up. Why re-sign?

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06-21-2013, 01:58 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Cutter View Post
What's your point? If Desharnais was Galchenyuk's height people would get off his back but it's not the case here. There are players that bring the same intangibles 20-25G, 45-50 pts and leadership that are not 5'7.
My point is that he's the team captain, he puts up decent numbers, he's liable defensively yet people are trying very hard to find excuses to get rid of him, going as far as making stuff up like his points per minutes played, as I've quoted yesterday. My point is that he's not as easily replaced as some of you want to believe. You can come up with a list of names from players on other teams but they're not with the Habs and there is certainly no guaranty that they would be.

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06-21-2013, 04:00 PM
  #89
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I think it's his last year, here, and while I wouldn't be opposed to him getting traded, I think that he is somewhat undervalued here, he is small but all he does is score dirty goals, I rewatched all 14 of his goals this year, 11 have come from being in front of the net around the crease, 11 goals in 48 games prorated to about 19-20 goals in a full year from just by him going to the dirty areas.

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06-21-2013, 04:48 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You are correct sir.
Sure he is...

And if Jaromir Jagr was 25 everyone would want him too. But he's not...

The whole "if things were different, things wouldn't be the same" argument doesn't make any sense here.

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06-21-2013, 08:15 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Sure he is...

And if Jaromir Jagr was 25 everyone would want him too. But he's not...

The whole "if things were different, things wouldn't be the same" argument doesn't make any sense here.
In my opinion, it does... in this case. We've read people complain about his lack of production, which we've proven otherwise. We've read some complain that he doesn't go in traffic, which we've disproved. We've read about the fact that he's overpaid, we've come up with comparatives with similar salary/production to support Gionta. Some even questioned his leadership, we've countered with players and former players' quotes stating the opposite. One even talked about his production per ice time when in reality, he has one of the team's best ratio since signing in Montreal.

All that's left is his size, which can't be denied. If Gio had the same qualities, the same production as he's shown, but was 6'2", would we be having this discussion? What I'm saying is that they can get the size elsewhere as this guy brings everything but size to the table.

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06-21-2013, 09:04 PM
  #92
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After reading this board, we can conclude that...Plekachu is a great player, Ginta is a great player, DD just got signed/will not get traded and will bounce back...but still read that we need a better mix and get bigger. What a nightmare.

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06-21-2013, 10:40 PM
  #93
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Seems to me that DD, Gionta, Gallagher and Cube in the same team is causing problems.
None of these players has a lack of character.
Just remembering last year comments about Desharnais...

Gallagher and Cube character can not be questioned.
Also, Bouillon should not play all 82 games.

Gionta is probably gone after next season.
But he was still 7th among forwards in production.
Just behind Desharnais.

I am quite comfortable with keeping DD and Gallagher in offense and Diaz being our smallest D-men.
If DD is given enough size on his line and Diaz is our smallest d-men, then size should not be a concern.
I want to see more of Diaz and DD, not ready to give up.
Diaz improved on both offense and defense while DD had a bad year (sophomore?).

We need to revisit this in a year.
In the pipeline, Thrower and Bennett are the only d-men less than 6'1".

Now, if you guys are betting on us trading Gionta, I do not see it happening unless we are out of PO at trade deadline.
Bergevin is very focused on team spirit and will bring changes with character players.

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06-22-2013, 01:33 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
But he's not 6'2. He's five foot nothing...

Dude, that whole makeover with him Cammy and Gomez was a total fiasco. There's nothing wrong with Gionta as an individual player but we've teamed him with other small players... makes NO sense.

What does make sense is letting some of these guys go now and starting over with some size. I don't need us to be the biggest in the league but we've got to stop trying to win with a bunch of smurfs... it won't work.

Somebody's got to go. Is it going to be DD? Unlikely as we just signed him. Plex isn't going anywhere and neither is Gallagher. That leaves Gionta who has one year left on his deal. Subban, Max and Price are coming into their prime years now. I don't want to see them wasted. We're spinning our wheels with these small teams and it has to change if we want to win. Nothing against Gionta but it's about balance.

And if he was 6'2 his team never would've let him go in the first place.
Here are the
  • top-30 forwards. I see Wheeler and Thornton with more points than DD.
  • Keeping on with next 30, I see Getzlaf, Lucic, J. Staal, Nash, E. Stall, Lecavalier, Carter, Jagr, Ovechkin, Kovalchuck with more points than DD.
  • Among 61-90, I see Kopitar, Franzen, Backes, Brouwer, Perry, Ladd had more points than DD.
  • Then going on, with 90-120 I see Kopecky, Purcell, Malkin, JVR and Stewart.
  • Going on, I see Marleau, Pacioretty, Koivu, Voracek.
  • Continuing, I see Eller, Semin, Neal, Toews, Vanek and Benn.
  • Then Ryan, Eriksson, E. Kane, Bergeron, Prospal, H. Sedin, Simmonds.

Point is: besides Eller and Prospal, do you see any 6'2" player who scored more points that DD and got less than 3.5M?
If DD was 6'2", he would have got 5-6M.

If I would have done this exercise for 2011-12, there was 9 players under 6' who were ahead of Desharnais at 57th.

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06-22-2013, 01:53 AM
  #95
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I'd love to see a stat about the number of shots he placed directly in the god damn logo.

Capitaine Shot dans l'signe.

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06-22-2013, 05:56 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
In my opinion, it does... in this case. We've read people complain about his lack of production, which we've proven otherwise. We've read some complain that he doesn't go in traffic, which we've disproved. We've read about the fact that he's overpaid, we've come up with comparatives with similar salary/production to support Gionta. Some even questioned his leadership, we've countered with players and former players' quotes stating the opposite. One even talked about his production per ice time when in reality, he has one of the team's best ratio since signing in Montreal.

All that's left is his size, which can't be denied. If Gio had the same qualities, the same production as he's shown, but was 6'2", would we be having this discussion? What I'm saying is that they can get the size elsewhere as this guy brings everything but size to the table.
He's not 6'2.

Whenever there's a scrum with him out there we're at an immediate disadvantage. That would be okay if he were the only shrimp on our team but he's not. Look at the Bruins, they don't have a great offense up front but work well as a team. Sometimes the whole is better than the sum of its parts.

If Gionta is that productive then he shouldn't be that hard to move right? He's in the last year of his contract so that should be attractive to some teams. So package him with something else and work on getting secondary scoring that isn't smurf-like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Here are the
  • top-30 forwards. I see Wheeler and Thornton with more points than DD.
  • Keeping on with next 30, I see Getzlaf, Lucic, J. Staal, Nash, E. Stall, Lecavalier, Carter, Jagr, Ovechkin, Kovalchuck with more points than DD.
  • Among 61-90, I see Kopitar, Franzen, Backes, Brouwer, Perry, Ladd had more points than DD.
  • Then going on, with 90-120 I see Kopecky, Purcell, Malkin, JVR and Stewart.
  • Going on, I see Marleau, Pacioretty, Koivu, Voracek.
  • Continuing, I see Eller, Semin, Neal, Toews, Vanek and Benn.
  • Then Ryan, Eriksson, E. Kane, Bergeron, Prospal, H. Sedin, Simmonds.

Point is: besides Eller and Prospal, do you see any 6'2" player who scored more points that DD and got less than 3.5M?
If DD was 6'2", he would have got 5-6M.

If I would have done this exercise for 2011-12, there was 9 players under 6' who were ahead of Desharnais at 57th.
I'm not calling for an embargo on small players. We just have too many. I don't see how this is a debate.

The only question now is, which ones do we let go?

Gionta is the easy choice here.

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06-22-2013, 07:59 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He's not 6'2.

Whenever there's a scrum with him out there we're at an immediate disadvantage. That would be okay if he were the only shrimp on our team but he's not. Look at the Bruins, they don't have a great offense up front but work well as a team. Sometimes the whole is better than the sum of its parts.

If Gionta is that productive then he shouldn't be that hard to move right? He's in the last year of his contract so that should be attractive to some teams. So package him with something else and work on getting secondary scoring that isn't smurf-like.

I'm not calling for an embargo on small players. We just have too many. I don't see how this is a debate.

The only question now is, which ones do we let go?

Gionta is the easy choice here.
Agreed.
Question is when.
His contract finishes next year. We could certainly use him on our top-9.

I am all for using more Galchenyuk - Eller -Gallagher on PP but we could wait till they start to produce before getting rid of Gionta.

Plus he is our captain after all.
He must have some impact on the bench.

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06-22-2013, 08:05 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitaine Gionta View Post
I'd love to see a stat about the number of shots he placed directly in the god damn logo.

Capitaine Shot dans l'signe.
Shot% is 12.5, his best since 2006-7.
Among our top-6 shooters, only Gallagher is better (12.8).

Also Desharnais and Ryder both did better than 15% but they shot less.

So basically, you could have said the same about MaxPac, Plekanec, Eller and Galchenyuk.

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06-23-2013, 10:45 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He's not 6'2.

Whenever there's a scrum with him out there we're at an immediate disadvantage. That would be okay if he were the only shrimp on our team but he's not. Look at the Bruins, they don't have a great offense up front but work well as a team. Sometimes the whole is better than the sum of its parts.

If Gionta is that productive then he shouldn't be that hard to move right? He's in the last year of his contract so that should be attractive to some teams. So package him with something else and work on getting secondary scoring that isn't smurf-like.
Aside maybe from Prust and Tinordi, sometimes Moen (when he feels like it), who exactly in that line-up is at an advantage during a scrum? Why pick on our best goals' scorer in the last few years instead of someone who doesn't put up those numbers?

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06-23-2013, 10:52 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by couris View Post
After reading this board, we can conclude that...Plekachu is a great player, Ginta is a great player, DD just got signed/will not get traded and will bounce back...but still read that we need a better mix and get bigger. What a nightmare.
Nobody is forcing you to stay.

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