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Isles to Brooklyn 2015 Part III **Preseason Game v Devils 9-21-13

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06-23-2013, 03:57 AM
  #951
MJF
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post

Sorry, but you really want the Isles out of LI and it's clouding your judgment. Bias. Argue critically. The one point you raised that was valid was the LA basin population, but....you strawman omitted context as I spilled out so please come back with comps from the square mileage of said region:

LA, OC and LB square footage and population and median per capita income
vs.
Nassau, Suffolk, Queens, Brooklyn, Bronx, Manhattan and SI as well as a portion of Westchester County to give EQUAL square mileage, the combined population of said region and the average per capita income of the allotted region.

Thanks.
I think there are a number of people who just want the Isles out of Long Island and into the big city. Like this is going to be the cure-all for a bad image. I think its a case of Rangers envy.

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06-23-2013, 07:45 AM
  #952
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I think there are a number of people who just want the Isles out of Long Island and into the big city. Like this is going to be the cure-all for a bad image. I think its a case of Rangers envy.
Personally I want the isles to play in a first class arena suited for HOCKEY in the New York area. Unfortunately Charles Wang knows nothing about first class.

I dont have rangers envy...i have competent owner envy.

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06-23-2013, 07:53 AM
  #953
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Personally I want the isles to play in a first class arena suited for HOCKEY in the New York area. Unfortunately Charles Wang knows nothing about first class.

I dont have rangers envy...i have competent owner envy.
Well said.

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06-23-2013, 10:41 AM
  #954
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-Your average income numbers have 1 major flaw (besides not using the median): you're leaving out cost of living. Making $60K a year on Long Island is VERY different than $60K say in Tampa.

-Your numbers for LA and San Diego: You're only counting people within the city limits-NOT the metro areas as a whole-which is a much more accurate number. Who has a higher population: Miami or Orlando? If you use the way you factored your numbers-the answer would be Miami.

-You cited 7.7million people for Long Island's draw to NVMC (HUGE stretch btw), BUT LA's metro population is 12.8million.....4.5million larger than your already inflated number.

-The Green Bay Packers are a not-for profit franchise (and publicly owned), and thus the state of their team's finances cannot really be compared to any other professional sports team in North America.



-Long Island simply isn't good enough for a hockey market (especially considering it's a saturated market to begin with). Of course losing is a major reason why there's no sponsorship, gate receipts, and so forth.....BUT that's reality. They're just a long list of excuses that fans think of, to direct attention away from the reality that the suburban model does NOT work in the NHL. Any market can draw with a winning team sure, but as an owner I'd more concerned about what kind of draw is there during a down or mediocre year? And the Isles have pathetic attendance during those years.

the islanders aren't that different as far as attendance goes than the Mets, Yankees, Nets, and Devils. ny metro teams attendance tracks the teams success (unless you are a corporate supported msg team or a 8 home games a year nfl team)

venue: Mets attendance behavior is the same as it was at shea

location: there was a time the yankees were looking to move because the thought was nobody wanted to go to the bronx

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06-23-2013, 10:56 AM
  #955
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
Thus, I cited San Diego and LA, similar metro areas, not Tampa, and I took into account COLA and mentioned it even! I even mentioned TAXES and said Nassau and LI were worse, even!


holy christ. I gave population in square footage and areas similar and compared. I even cited Riverside and Santa Barbara and San Fernando and other metro areas fifty to one hundred miles away. Ever been out here? No? It's FAR. LA and SD are SPRAWL regions, not the same as NY and LI. But if you wanna argue, post this and we'll debate. I've lived extensively in both.


How is it a stretch? Using census figures for areas I spelled out in English for all to read using square mileage surrounding the arena in a comparable setting to the San Diego area and LA basin area. Want me to spell that out or are you just unhappy the numbers ring true? Yikes.

OK, you want LB and Orange County in? I get to add Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau, Suffolk and Manhattan and parts of Westchester in as well as the Bronx and Staten Island. Then we get equal square mileage for comparison. Then ADD THE PER CAPITA INCOME, PLEASE!

Straw....we can make him walk. He can sit up. SIT UP STRAWMAN! Now argue! We have our strawman arguement quoted above. Now take the totals.

LB, OC and LA and add SFV. Population totals? Now equal square footage and drive times....tell me the populations of the five boroughs, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester?

Now what is the per capita average income?

Gimme some numbers.


I didn't give the comparison, but thanks.




argument is useless......explain the Mets and their attendance. Explain why advertisers would pick the Isles who lose and are a joke over the Rangers? Do advertisers base it on geography or viewership? OK....so sucking has nothing to do with it, it's all about the label a region has, even though the population, income and demographics of tiny piddly LI rival the regions I laid out above?

Your debate points are vacuous at best.

Population density, money available for spending, not important. If that's not important.....whatever. I wasted money in college and marketing when I could just read message board posts from pro NYC fans?

Sorry, but you really want the Isles out of LI and it's clouding your judgment. Bias. Argue critically. The one point you raised that was valid was the LA basin population, but....you strawman omitted context as I spilled out so please come back with comps from the square mileage of said region:

LA, OC and LB square footage and population and median per capita income
vs.
Nassau, Suffolk, Queens, Brooklyn, Bronx, Manhattan and SI as well as a portion of Westchester County to give EQUAL square mileage, the combined population of said region and the average per capita income of the allotted region.

Thanks.

Sorry, I hope this post doesn't seem hostile, just a frustrating popular sentiment that Nassau and the surrounding metropolitan area is being compared to "the 'burbs" is silly if you compare the raw stats or market and populace with money. The government may act like it's "Mayberry" but the people and culture....it's more urban than some big cities with NHL teams, correct?

excellent point, have you been to columbus? I was just there on a business trip and it's about as urban and densely populated as Huntington.

but to be fair to the counter argument, The Blue Jackets are their only major league professional sports team. Those areas that the NHL has gone to that are small town-ish are locations where they often have a pro sports monopoly (columbus/nashville/Raleigh/various canadian cities)

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06-23-2013, 11:05 AM
  #956
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Originally Posted by stranger34 View Post
the islanders aren't that different as far as attendance goes than the Mets, Yankees, Nets, and Devils. ny metro teams attendance tracks the teams success (unless you are a corporate supported msg team or a 8 home games a year nfl team)

venue: Mets attendance behavior is the same as it was at shea

location: there was a time the yankees were looking to move because the thought was nobody wanted to go to the bronx
The only teams in this area that don't suffer at the box office when the team is playing poorly for an extended period are the Rangers and the NY Giants. The Yankees most definitely did have poor attendance in the late 80s-mid 1990s, as hard as it is to believe when you look at them during the last 10 years.

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06-23-2013, 11:11 AM
  #957
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Originally Posted by stranger34 View Post
excellent point, have you been to columbus? I was just there on a business trip and it's about as urban and densely populated as Huntington.

but to be fair to the counter argument, The Blue Jackets are their only major league professional sports team. Those areas that the NHL has gone to that are small town-ish are locations where they often have a pro sports monopoly (columbus/nashville/Raleigh/various canadian cities)
Would a fair comparison to the Islanders LI demographics be the Anaheim Ducks? The Ducks are in Orange County, 90 miles from downtown Los Angeles, still in the LA media market. The sports and entertainment dollar there is split between the Clippers, Lakers and Kings during the hockey season. If you count the San Diego Padres and Chargers, 3 MLB teams and 1 NFL team are within a 2 hour drive of the Ducks area.

Lots of competition for disposable income in SoCal.


Last edited by MJF: 06-23-2013 at 11:17 AM.
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06-23-2013, 11:26 AM
  #958
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Originally Posted by MJF View Post
The only teams in this area that don't suffer at the box office when the team is playing poorly for an extended period are the Rangers and the NY Giants. The Yankees most definitely did have poor attendance in the late 80s-mid 1990s, as hard as it is to believe when you look at them during the last 10 years.
I think you could include the Knicks, I don't think they ever really suffer

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06-23-2013, 11:27 AM
  #959
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Originally Posted by MJF View Post
Would a fair comparison to the Islanders LI demographics be the Anaheim Ducks? The Ducks are in Orange County, 90 miles from downtown Los Angeles, still in the LA media market. The sports and entertainment dollar there is split between the Clippers, Lakers and Kings during the hockey season. If you count the San Diego Padres and Chargers, 3 MLB teams and 1 NFL team are within a 2 hour drive of the Ducks area.

Lots of competition for disposable income in SoCal.
Actually, I think that might be the fairest comparison of all.

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06-23-2013, 01:21 PM
  #960
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I think you could include the Knicks, I don't think they ever really suffer
Someone clearly doesn't watch basketball. Not meaning to offend, but the Knicks suffered some bad times too.

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06-23-2013, 01:53 PM
  #961
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The reason why the era of playing in the suburbs is over is not because of population or money necessarily. Its the hip factor. its in thing to do to play in the city. More corporate sponsors too. Suburbs are boring and lame.

The young audience who MLB, NBA and NHL are trying to cater to, are moving to cities. And out of the suburban life. Thats why Brooklyn was a success for the Nets.

And because cities are centrally located they can generally cater to more people than playing in the suburbs.

NFL doesnt care, one game a week.

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06-23-2013, 02:29 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by Riseonfire View Post
Someone clearly doesn't watch basketball. Not meaning to offend, but the Knicks suffered some bad times too.
I'm not a huge NBA fan, but I thought even in their dark days they maintained pretty good attendance/season ticket levels

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06-23-2013, 02:33 PM
  #963
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Originally Posted by krnboy1009 View Post
The reason why the era of playing in the suburbs is over is not because of population or money necessarily. Its the hip factor. its in thing to do to play in the city. More corporate sponsors too. Suburbs are boring and lame.

The young audience who MLB, NBA and NHL are trying to cater to, are moving to cities. And out of the suburban life. Thats why Brooklyn was a success for the Nets.

And because cities are centrally located they can generally cater to more people than playing in the suburbs.

NFL doesnt care, one game a week.
fwiw I was able to get two tickets on stub hub for Bulls-Nets game 7 (A saturday night) at about $90 all in each. The Nets standing in the world improved in Brooklyn, but I would wait a good 5 years before calling it a success. Demand for for an Isles game 7 at the coliseum would dwarf the demand the Nets had in Brooklyn.

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06-23-2013, 09:53 PM
  #964
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I really hope some seats in the front row in the basketball configuration are removable (as well as a large room to store them) since more than 3000 may need to be removed for hockey configuration. As far as the scoreboard, they may need to attach a slider/railing on the top so it can move from one point to another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barclays_Center

Basketball: 17,732
Ice Hockey: 14,500
Concert: 19,000

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06-24-2013, 01:22 PM
  #965
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https://twitter.com/islanderspb/stat...14428090208256

IslandersPB: Yormark: Barclays Officially Takes Over Isles Business Operations http://t.co/7A56dy756f

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06-24-2013, 01:30 PM
  #966
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^Players dont care what the arena looks like, as long as the lockerroom is modern. Thats why new arenas make the team more attractive.
It's amazing how many people dont get that.

Player amenities:

Where the arena is / Where they can live.
Training facility.
Weight Room / Medical Room.
Quality of the ice sheet.
Lockerroom.

that's it.


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06-24-2013, 01:47 PM
  #967
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Good players care about winning.

Human nature....success in any endeavor is the goal. You have a player who care more about amenities than winning and I'll tell you flat out I don't want him here.

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06-24-2013, 02:19 PM
  #968
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Originally Posted by Homeland Security View Post
https://twitter.com/islanderspb/stat...14428090208256

IslandersPB: Yormark: Barclays Officially Takes Over Isles Business Operations http://t.co/7A56dy756f
I wonder how this arrangement will work. If Wang still owns the team, wouldn't he have the final say on the player salaries?

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06-24-2013, 02:24 PM
  #969
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Why can't we just have a normal team, with a normal owner playing out of a normal rink.

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06-24-2013, 02:45 PM
  #970
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Why can't we just have a normal team, with a normal owner playing out of a normal rink.
You must first have a normal owner before you can have anything else. We don't.

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06-24-2013, 06:29 PM
  #971
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I wonder how this arrangement will work. If Wang still owns the team, wouldn't he have the final say on the player salaries?
Business operations, not hockey ops. Snow does the hockey ops and goes to wang for budget, etc.

Marketing, sales, suites, promotions, partnerships, websites, etc... That's what Barclays guys are taking over

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06-24-2013, 07:55 PM
  #972
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I'd love to see a serious data analysis of so called "suburban sports team" and the model that is used to see if we can draw a conclusion as to why the Islanders are somehow an exception. First I'd like to understand what exactly is the definition of "suburban". Are the Devils suburban? Newark isn't a big city. Do you define it by access to public transportation (which lots of professional teams don't have). I don't understand why people throw up their hands and say "Oh well, the "suburban model" just doesn't work for Long Island and there's nothing we can do about it. It's this weird negative attitude that Long Islanders have developed that we can no longer be successful at anything. I don't get it.

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06-24-2013, 08:15 PM
  #973
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Newark is the biggest city in population in NJ.

Plus access to Public Transportation brings fans from Southern Jersey / Pennsylvania as well as New York City and Upstate NY.

IT IS ALL ABOUT ACCESS!

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06-24-2013, 09:06 PM
  #974
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Newark is the biggest city in population in NJ.

Plus access to Public Transportation brings fans from Southern Jersey / Pennsylvania as well as New York City and Upstate NY.

IT IS ALL ABOUT ACCESS!
What is the biggest city in New Hampshire?

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06-24-2013, 10:29 PM
  #975
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Newark is the biggest city in population in NJ.

Plus access to Public Transportation brings fans from Southern Jersey / Pennsylvania as well as New York City and Upstate NY.

IT IS ALL ABOUT ACCESS!
I've been to the Rock, but don't remember if all NJTransit lines run to Newark station. But what about other places. I think the LA example has been brought up. I don't believe there is strong public transport there. How easy is it to hop in a car and drive to the Coli from virtually anywhere on the Island. I don't buy that for a team to succeed you need strong public transportation.

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