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Rangers Officially Introduce Alain Vigneault As Coach

View Poll Results: What do you think of the hire?
Good hire 142 66.67%
Bad hire 7 3.29%
Neutral; will wait and see... 64 30.05%
Voters: 213. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-22-2013, 07:42 PM
  #101
Affinity
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You guys need to calm down. No one said they'd rather win the PT just that its more impressive to be the best team in the nhl throughout the entire regular season. Stop putting words in my mouth.

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06-22-2013, 07:46 PM
  #102
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2012 Kings would like to make a stand.

This si coaching thread though.

In regards to players being moved for the mold of AV, I think he attempts to work with what he has before he feels that he has to start moving pieces.

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06-22-2013, 08:05 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Affinity View Post
You guys need to calm down. No one said they'd rather win the PT just that its more impressive to be the best team in the nhl throughout the entire regular season. Stop putting words in my mouth.
But Torts got #1 in east. cup too. hes did both.

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06-22-2013, 08:57 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Affinity View Post
You guys need to calm down. No one said they'd rather win the PT just that its more impressive to be the best team in the nhl throughout the entire regular season. Stop putting words in my mouth.
This. It's more impressive to be the best over a long term 82 game season than it is to win several playoff rounds where luck plays a much larger factor given small sample size.

Obviously the goal is to win the Stanley Cup, not the presidents, and that's more important but it's not the more impressive feat.

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06-22-2013, 08:58 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
But Torts got #1 in east. cup too. hes did both.
2004. Before the lockout. Before the game changed dramatically on how it was played. Those accolades got him the job here, however, he never brought a new coaching style that fit the new NHL. That's what lost him the job.

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06-23-2013, 12:52 AM
  #106
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Wondering if people really expect the shot blocking to stop completely. From what I've read around the boards some people think there will be barely any shot blocking. I'm sorry but even with Torts gone I bet we will still be top 10 in the league in blocked shots. Guys like Cally, Girardi, Staal, McD, Stepan...they're going to keep blocking shots. Our defensive structure won't be built around it anymore, but blocking shots is important to defense. These guys are wired to do whatever it takes and just because Torts isn't on the bench anymore won't change that. Torts or no Torts these guys know that shot blocking is important.

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06-23-2013, 06:09 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
2004. Before the lockout. Before the game changed dramatically on how it was played. Those accolades got him the job here, however, he never brought a new coaching style that fit the new NHL. That's what lost him the job.
In 2011-12, the Rangers finished with the best record in the conference and 2nd best record in the NHL.

So, the question becomes, what must one accomplish as a coach post-2004 to demonstrate that you have a coaching style that fits a post-lockout NHL?

If we are to judge by who wins the Cup, very few coaches seem to be a good fit to the "new" NHL, whatever the "new" NHL means.


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06-23-2013, 07:06 AM
  #108
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In 2011-12, the Rangers finished with the best record in the conference and 2nd best record in the NHL.

So, the question becomes, what must one accomplish as a coach post-2004 to demonstrate that you have a coaching style that fits a post-lockout NHL?

If we are to judge by who wins the Cup, very few coaches seem to be a good fit to the "new" NHL, whatever the "new" NHL means.
What anyone does in one single season without context of what actually lies behind the success is certainly not enough to be deemed as evidence of a good coaching strategy. What one must accomplish is to systematically and consistently utilize the strength of the players and of the team to produce success. Did John Tortorella utilize the strength of his players? I don't think he did a good job of that throughout his post 2004 lockout coaching and his tenure in NY, obviously. Was his system the reason why we got to become the number one team in the conference two years ago? I don't think it was. Was his success consistent from season to season and from situation to situation? I don't think it was either.

The 10X point season two years ago has a lot to do with Henrik Lundqvist. Of course, it's hard to be a top team without a top goalie but I think a top goalie was the only quality our team had that could put us on top of the conference standings. If you plot an above average goalie in there with a GAA of 2.30 in there as opposed to henrik's 1.96, that's another extra 28 goals in a 82 game season. The amount of close games we played? 28 goals against would pretty much put us back to 6-8th territory based on the play of the defense and offense.

The work of John Tortorella, or any coach for that matter should be taken in consideration without the peripheral details. it's hard to convince anyone that Torts' system is one that is worthy of praise.

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06-23-2013, 08:08 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Affinity View Post
You guys need to calm down. No one said they'd rather win the PT just that its more impressive to be the best team in the nhl throughout the entire regular season. Stop putting words in my mouth.
I don't think it is, at all. The game played is 100% different. You can put up great regular season numbers in an easier division with a great PP. It is a lot more impressive to still get it done when the whistles go away and there are no more easy periods, let alone games.

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06-23-2013, 08:15 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by JCresty View Post
What anyone does in one single season without context of what actually lies behind the success is certainly not enough to be deemed as evidence of a good coaching strategy. What one must accomplish is to systematically and consistently utilize the strength of the players and of the team to produce success. Did John Tortorella utilize the strength of his players? I don't think he did a good job of that throughout his post 2004 lockout coaching and his tenure in NY, obviously. Was his system the reason why we got to become the number one team in the conference two years ago? I don't think it was. Was his success consistent from season to season and from situation to situation? I don't think it was either.

The 10X point season two years ago has a lot to do with Henrik Lundqvist. Of course, it's hard to be a top team without a top goalie but I think a top goalie was the only quality our team had that could put us on top of the conference standings. If you plot an above average goalie in there with a GAA of 2.30 in there as opposed to henrik's 1.96, that's another extra 28 goals in a 82 game season. The amount of close games we played? 28 goals against would pretty much put us back to 6-8th territory based on the play of the defense and offense.

The work of John Tortorella, or any coach for that matter should be taken in consideration without the peripheral details. it's hard to convince anyone that Torts' system is one that is worthy of praise.

Your point is well taken, but I think it will be interesting to see what Henrik's numbers look like with a differnet dzone system. I see a lot of posts about how he "won't get scored on by so many deflections / screens" implying that his GAA will actually get better. It could happen but I certainly would not predict that. With more odd man rushes from trying to push the pace, and more odd man situations down low in the dzone without collapsed forwards, I think you will see quality chances against go up even if shots are down.

Barring an absolutely super human effort by Lundqvist next year, I fully expect that incremental offense will come at some sort of cost in terms of GA. Will it be minimal enough to get some more wins? I hope so. That's the goal. But I definitely would argue that Torts' system helped Henrik's numbers and as such you can't look at them in a vaccum.

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06-23-2013, 09:05 AM
  #111
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There's nothing in the regular season that can replicate the pressure of playoff hockey. You can have all the talent in the world but it doesn't mean much if you can't perform in the clutch come playoff time.

And the regular season doesn't really stack up to the physical grind of playoff hockey - the game's aren't played as tight and there's no sudden death OT in the regular season. To each his own, but I've always found that winning the Stanley Cup is a more impressive feat than having the best regular season record.

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06-23-2013, 11:18 AM
  #112
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I posted on the Canucks board that this might work out really well for both teams. I think that the things that Vigneault does well, such as transition, breakouts from the D-zone, entering the O-zone, and especially PP (personnel not withstanding) are the things Torts struggled with. The things Vigneault didn't do as well, I think Torts might have covered to some extent. Mainly, the blue-collar team identity of the Rangers 2 seasons ago (while winning the East).

Of course, it could also flop totally and Vigneault tries to instill his own system that doesn't really fit the players at all. We'll see

I think the exact same thing can be said for the Canucks, but with the coaching qualities reversed.

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06-23-2013, 01:56 PM
  #113
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Torts may have been just what the team needed in terms of building a solid base. Everyone on the team knows how to play defensively, knows how to block shots. That stuff will be key come playoff time.

If they can generate a bit more offense to not have to rely on that stuff then all the better. But its nice they have that to fall back on if they need it.

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06-23-2013, 02:00 PM
  #114
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They shouldn't regard it as falling back. Playing defensive hockey is extremely important unless you were on the 80's Oilers. If they retain the defense they learned from previous coach Torts, and employ a more refined version that helps the rest of their game with AV, they're good.

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06-23-2013, 02:29 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCresty View Post
What anyone does in one single season without context of what actually lies behind the success is certainly not enough to be deemed as evidence of a good coaching strategy. What one must accomplish is to systematically and consistently utilize the strength of the players and of the team to produce success. Did John Tortorella utilize the strength of his players? I don't think he did a good job of that throughout his post 2004 lockout coaching and his tenure in NY, obviously. Was his system the reason why we got to become the number one team in the conference two years ago? I don't think it was. Was his success consistent from season to season and from situation to situation? I don't think it was either.

The 10X point season two years ago has a lot to do with Henrik Lundqvist. Of course, it's hard to be a top team without a top goalie but I think a top goalie was the only quality our team had that could put us on top of the conference standings. If you plot an above average goalie in there with a GAA of 2.30 in there as opposed to henrik's 1.96, that's another extra 28 goals in a 82 game season. The amount of close games we played? 28 goals against would pretty much put us back to 6-8th territory based on the play of the defense and offense.

The work of John Tortorella, or any coach for that matter should be taken in consideration without the peripheral details. it's hard to convince anyone that Torts' system is one that is worthy of praise.
All of the Rangers success is determined by arguably the best goalie in the game.

You want to talk of context without offering any other than your supposition that Torts somehow restricted the Rangers chances of winning the Cup.

So, I will ask the same question of you that I have asked others:

Assuming your evaluation of Torts is correct, is it safe to say with another coach who you deem worthy, that the Rangers would have won a Cup or multiple Cups?

I don't think so. If you believe that, than you believe their personnel was better than Boston's or Chicago's or Pitt's, or whoever. I could not disagree more.

The success of the Rangers so far has been based on Hank keeping them in games and hoping they can pull out close ones. If you believe a coach is going to open it up and succeed that way here, wait until you see how many shots Hank is facing, then.

With all of these coaching opinions, I'll bet Vigneault has a style not far from Torts unless there is marked improvement by some of their young forwards, which could certainly happen.

The NHL is a defense first league and has been pretty much that since Gretzky's Oilers.

By the way, if someone offers a theory of a coach not getting the job done, it is not up to someone to put that in context, whatever that means in this case.


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06-23-2013, 04:56 PM
  #116
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All of the Rangers success is determined by arguably the best goalie in the game.

You want to talk of context without offering any other than your supposition that Torts somehow restricted the Rangers chances of winning the Cup.

So, I will ask the same question of you that I have asked others:

Assuming your evaluation of Torts is correct, is it safe to say with another coach who you deem worthy, that the Rangers would have won a Cup or multiple Cups?

I don't think so. If you believe that, than you believe their personnel was better than Boston's or Chicago's or Pitt's, or whoever. I could not disagree more.

The success of the Rangers so far has been based on Hank keeping them in games and hoping they can pull out close ones. If you believe a coach is going to open it up and succeed that way here, wait until you see how many shots Hank is facing, then.

With all of these coaching opinions, I'll bet Vigneault has a style not far from Torts unless there is marked improvement by some of their young forwards, which could certainly happen.

The NHL is a defense first league and has been pretty much that since Gretzky's Oilers.

By the way, if someone offers a theory of a coach not getting the job done, it is not up to someone to put that in context, whatever that means in this case.
Anytime a question is phrased in terms of how many cups can be won, it's not a logically valid question in assessing the point anyone is trying to make. Therefore, the argument and the idea of NYR having a better line up than BOS or CHI is just what it is, slippery slope and straw man. Did torts restrict our ability to win a cup? This year, yes. That's why there's a coaching change. I don't think opening it up offensively is the right way to conceptualize it. Torts closed the transition, neutral zone in terms of offensive play and restricted situations and players especially the D from systematically jumping in. No one, not AV or Slats is intending on playing in the wild offensive fashion many are suggesting. Torts did some thing incorrectly systematically, AV can now move forward with those changes in mind.

People keep talking about style as if getting a coach with a different style means a system overhaul. Style is different in ways a coach would get players to play toward a certain orientation of thinking in a situation where there are multiple options ranging in "correctness" based on other factors in the game. All the fundamentals stay.

You say AV is not different from Torts and yet you suggest that AV will be slanted toward offensive play. Torts did 80% of things right while we're looking for someone who does 90% of things right. Unfortunately, the 10% Torts is missing on is what has to be there win a championship.

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06-23-2013, 07:57 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by JCresty View Post
Anytime a question is phrased in terms of how many cups can be won, it's not a logically valid question in assessing the point anyone is trying to make. Therefore, the argument and the idea of NYR having a better line up than BOS or CHI is just what it is, slippery slope and straw man. Did torts restrict our ability to win a cup? This year, yes. That's why there's a coaching change. I don't think opening it up offensively is the right way to conceptualize it. Torts closed the transition, neutral zone in terms of offensive play and restricted situations and players especially the D from systematically jumping in. No one, not AV or Slats is intending on playing in the wild offensive fashion many are suggesting. Torts did some thing incorrectly systematically, AV can now move forward with those changes in mind.

People keep talking about style as if getting a coach with a different style means a system overhaul. Style is different in ways a coach would get players to play toward a certain orientation of thinking in a situation where there are multiple options ranging in "correctness" based on other factors in the game. All the fundamentals stay.

You say AV is not different from Torts and yet you suggest that AV will be slanted toward offensive play. Torts did 80% of things right while we're looking for someone who does 90% of things right. Unfortunately, the 10% Torts is missing on is what has to be there win a championship.
You say that Torts held the Rangers back. They finished 1st in the conference last year and made it to the Conference finals.

It is absolutely fair to then ask you if the Rangers would have won the Cup with a "Better" coach.

If you answer Yes, I will choose to disagree.

If you answer No, then what does your evaluation mean?

If you answer something else, in my opinion, that is avoiding the question.

You do realize that your use of 80 and 90% are make believe numbers based on nothing verifiable?

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06-23-2013, 08:16 PM
  #118
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You say that Torts held the Rangers back. They finished 1st in the conference last year and made it to the Conference finals.

It is absolutely fair to then ask you if the Rangers would have won the Cup with a "Better" coach.

If you answer Yes, I will choose to disagree.

If you answer No, then what does your evaluation mean?

If you answer something else, in my opinion, that is avoiding the question.

You do realize that your use of 80 and 90% are make believe numbers based on nothing verifiable?
In terms of terminology, "holding back" is fairly loaded. When a coach who is suppose to propel a team is said to be holding a team back, it's quite dramatic.

Having that said, Torts did in fact hold the Rangers back this past season. The Eastern conference finish two seasons ago was to Torts's credit. Neither is completely on Torts however.

Asking whether a team would have won a cup with a better coach is unfair because you're just setting me up to counter me in a straw man. If I say, yes we would have, you can easily question my judgement on NYR's capability and my apparently harsh judgement of Torts. If I say no, then you can easily say what is wrong with Torts then, if a different coach cannot win the cup either and Torts's efforts to get to the ECF and ECSF in the past two year is probably as close as one can get to, within reason, without winning the cup.

Am I avoiding the question? The question is loaded and a set up and you know it and that's why you are explicitly stating the "avoiding the question" clause. It's no good.

You're forcing an answer of "Do you think NSA should spy on citizens for reason of national security?"Yes or No?

If you say yes, then you disregard the rights and freedoms and ethics and morals.

If you say no, then you are unpatriotic and place the security of the lives of citizens at stake.

the 80% and 90% statement is conceptual, not empirical or factual.

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06-23-2013, 09:04 PM
  #119
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You could look at it this way - Torts' system made it so basically all goals Hank let in deflections/screens. On the other hand, these were basically the only ones that did go in.

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06-23-2013, 09:53 PM
  #120
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You could look at it this way - Torts' system made it so basically all goals Hank let in deflections/screens. On the other hand, these were basically the only ones that did go in.
We shoudl have just gotten a better goalie that was better at stopping deflections and screen shots than Henrik instead of firing Torts.

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06-24-2013, 02:31 AM
  #121
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They shouldn't regard it as falling back. Playing defensive hockey is extremely important unless you were on the 80's Oilers. If they retain the defense they learned from previous coach Torts, and employ a more refined version that helps the rest of their game with AV, they're good.
Good point and it really is no cliche that defense more like is the foundation for offense.

But we should remember a couple of things.
-Just as defense is the foundation for offense, offense is the foundation for defense. We were not good defensively under Torts. We often gave up a ton of shots and we always had a ton of breakdowns.
-We were good a getting into shooting lanes.
-We were very good at defending against/on the rush (we often failed at getting the puck deep/just gave it away and it was on those breaks in the neutralzone that we gave up alot of breakaways, but we defended really well once we got the puck deep).

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06-24-2013, 03:05 AM
  #122
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We're sending him your way for more legal combat and arbitration to see if he's entitled to more of the Canucks fortune.
Oh, ouch dude. Low blow man, low blow.

----------------------------------------------------

Anyway, this could conceivably work out well for both teams. The fact that both you guys and us were complaining about the same problems is ringing some alarm bells tbph, but hey, both teams had run their course with the coaches they had. FWIW, I have a lot more confidence AV will bring you guys more success, but apparently we're all stuck with it now, so hey, here's to hoping. Vancouver's locker room does have a lot of ***** just begging for a foot to be violently inserted in them, though. So there's that. Sometimes over the years I've seen the Tortsmeister in pressers and scrums and briefly on TSN and thought: "Damn, that guy would be great over here!" But then, I also lived through Brian Burke's administration of the Canucks, then saw him ranting in TO and thought: "Damn I'm glad that guy's on the other side of the continent now."

Oh well, at least it won't be boring.

Best of luck to AV, the NYR and Rangers fans.

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06-24-2013, 03:07 AM
  #123
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Bowness went to Tampa. Gernander stinks.
Bowness is no improvement. The Canucks failings defensively is mostly on him. Sure AV did not go with all his ideas, but Bowness did not play his card well when dealing with the Canucks D.

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06-24-2013, 07:33 AM
  #124
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Torts may have been just what the team needed in terms of building a solid base. Everyone on the team knows how to play defensively, knows how to block shots. That stuff will be key come playoff time.

If they can generate a bit more offense to not have to rely on that stuff then all the better. But its nice they have that to fall back on if they need it.
I think this post might be recycled from 2009. Just replace Torts with Renney

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06-24-2013, 07:40 AM
  #125
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Asking whether a team would have won a cup with a better coach is unfair because you're just setting me up to counter me in a straw man.
Its not that. At all.

In fact, its simply asking you to justify your entire viewpoint. If you don't think that a different coach could've brought better results, then whats the point of the coaching change?

Now, keep in mind this is coming from someone who thinks this roster lacks championship talent/depth, you know, the real problem. But I digress, and I'd really like to know how you think a different coach will be capable of taking a good but not great roster past the final 4 or 8 teams left in the league.

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