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Old
06-23-2013, 01:04 PM
  #101
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There's a rumour that apparently a team would be interested in him... but let's leave it at that....

I don't think he will re-sign. I don't want Marc Bergevin to re-sign him.

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06-23-2013, 01:15 PM
  #102
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He's not going anywhere. NHL GM's don't trade away team captain productive two way 25-25 forwards for a Milan Lucic fetish.

5M for what Gionta does is not a bad price. A bit of an overpayment now but who cares, there's only one more year of his contract. It's not an albatross we need to get rid of for a 5th round pick. Of the little 3 (Cammalleri, Gomez, Gionta), Gionta's been far and away the best player and I don't know why people are so quick to get rid of him. He's a perfect fit on Plekanec's wing, good two way player and we can't just pencil in Gallagher and expect him to do the same thing Gionta's done. Besides that, I don't really know why we want to get rid of him after 14G in 48 games, that's really a pretty good rate considering how tough his matchups are playing on Pleks' wing.

Some perspective would be nice among the hyperbole. Gionta's contract isn't going to wreck our cap and sink this team to being a bunch of useless smurfs. If we had just signed him to a 5 year at 5M per extension today, then I'd get the frustration. But this guy is a team captain and great leader good for 25 goals and solid two way play, and his contract is up at the end of the year. He's not being traded and we're a better team with him in the lineup. Frankly, I'd love to resign him to play on the 3rd line for a couple more years. His top 6 utility is coming to an end but I don't see why he can't still be a good 3rd liner (I know, smurfs, soft, Bruins, Lucic, etc etc.)

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06-23-2013, 01:22 PM
  #103
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With Gionta maybe we just have to wait it out. Hes a health question mark so his trade value is too low. And he's also a pretty respected captain of a team that has some of the best chemistry in the league last year. Still, the three tiny forwards in the top nine is a problem. Gallagher should be the only one with a future here in the top six and that will look better when Giontas deal ends and be gets a handshake and a thanks but no thanks. The problem is our saviour GM for some reason gave a long deal to a soft unproven forward after one good season. This team gave Koivu one year deals but gives Desharnais term. He should have gotten one year, 2-2.5. Where was the hardball like he played with Subban?

Anyways for next year the team will have the smallest RW in the NHL but should be productive until they crumble in the playoffs under injuries, physical play from normal sized players.

Bourque - Plekanec - Gionta
Pacioretty - Eller - Deshanrnais
Prust - Galchenyuk - Gallagher

... is a lineup full of talented players but going nowhere until those 1st and 2nd RW are nasty, fast, physical players.

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06-23-2013, 02:20 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Aside maybe from Prust and Tinordi, sometimes Moen (when he feels like it), who exactly in that line-up is at an advantage during a scrum? Why pick on our best goals' scorer in the last few years instead of someone who doesn't put up those numbers?
That's the point: Who in our lineup is at an advantage during a scrum? I like Gionta and continue to defend his value, but SOMEONE has to be moved in order for a BIGGER SOMEONE to create that scrum advantage that's desperately needed.

Realistically, I expect another year from Gionta, as the Habs begin to add a little size. Defense is the priority. I expect Bergevin to get another established defenseman for the new season, along with the possibility of Beaulieu or Pateryn joining Tinordi.

After next season is when I expect the final pieces to be assembled, and that means making room for a couple of power wingers and dealing guys like Gionta.

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06-23-2013, 02:30 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by The Doors View Post
With Gionta maybe we just have to wait it out. Hes a health question mark so his trade value is too low. And he's also a pretty respected captain of a team that has some of the best chemistry in the league last year. Still, the three tiny forwards in the top nine is a problem. Gallagher should be the only one with a future here in the top six and that will look better when Giontas deal ends and be gets a handshake and a thanks but no thanks. The problem is our saviour GM for some reason gave a long deal to a soft unproven forward after one good season. This team gave Koivu one year deals but gives Desharnais term. He should have gotten one year, 2-2.5. Where was the hardball like he played with Subban?

Anyways for next year the team will have the smallest RW in the NHL but should be productive until they crumble in the playoffs under injuries, physical play from normal sized players.

Bourque - Plekanec - Gionta
Pacioretty - Eller - Deshanrnais
Prust - Galchenyuk - Gallagher

... is a lineup full of talented players but going nowhere until those 1st and 2nd RW are nasty, fast, physical players.
There's this illusion that less size equals more injuries, as if players break down because they're not big enough. Untrue. Yes, Gionta was hurt. But aside from him, our injured guys included Pacioretty, Bourque, Prust, Emelin and Eller - all big guys.

Meanwhile, Gallagher and Desharnais stayed healthy and strong.

Size is important, but only in terms of bigger players being able to clear away the other guys from our net and be immovable rebound machines in front of the other team's net. Size wins games by functioning within a offensive/defensive system, not because big guys are harder to injure and can beat you up.

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06-23-2013, 02:55 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
There's this illusion that less size equals more injuries, as if players break down because they're not big enough. Untrue. Yes, Gionta was hurt. But aside from him, our injured guys included Pacioretty, Bourque, Prust, Emelin and Eller - all big guys.

Meanwhile, Gallagher and Desharnais stayed healthy and strong.

Size is important, but only in terms of bigger players being able to clear away the other guys from our net and be immovable rebound machines in front of the other team's net. Size wins games by functioning within a offensive/defensive system, not because big guys are harder to injure and can beat you up.
I somewhat agree with you, but I don't think that's entirely the case. I think there's something to be said for the team needing many more strong, physical players plugged into the lineup in many areas. I want s playoff team not one that excels in February. Bourque is the only intimidating regular with top six skill and they nearly lost him for the year. The guys on this team that are supposed to play that way straight up don't. There is such an obvious lack of a big forward on the top six especially after Cole turned into Ryder turned into nothing presently.

It would be nice to see a roster full of collective team toughness and strength for once instead of watching the few physical players on the team try but get get overworked. Desharnais and Gionta in the top six for a whole season is disastrous against a physical playoff defence. The other team in the East will work hard to improve their weaknesses while Bergevin signs a #7 defenceman to be Therrien's #4 and a beer league scoring leader to a four year deal.

It's alright to have some small players, even some "soft" players but they should be the exception whereas on the Habs they are the norm.

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06-23-2013, 03:16 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by The Doors View Post
I somewhat agree with you, but I don't think that's entirely the case. I think there's something to be said for the team needing many more strong, physical players plugged into the lineup in many areas. I want s playoff team not one that excels in February. Bourque is the only intimidating regular with top six skill and they nearly lost him for the year. The guys on this team that are supposed to play that way straight up don't. There is such an obvious lack of a big forward on the top six especially after Cole turned into Ryder turned into nothing presently.

It would be nice to see a roster full of collective team toughness and strength for once instead of watching the few physical players on the team try but get get overworked. Desharnais and Gionta in the top six for a whole season is disastrous against a physical playoff defence. The other team in the East will work hard to improve their weaknesses while Bergevin signs a #7 defenceman to be Therrien's #4 and a beer league scoring leader to a four year deal.

It's alright to have some small players, even some "soft" players but they should be the exception whereas on the Habs they are the norm.
Kinda' sounds like we're saying the same thing. I want to add more physical players for the same reason you do: To win games in the playoffs. The only thing that changes in the playoffs -- as we're seeing -- is the refs back off further and further from the rulebook and let the bar for borderline hits sink lower and lower. Basically, if the cops have deserted their posts and it's mob-rules, I want the Habs to give as good as they get. For that we need more size. Again, I don't think adding those extra pounds and inches will prevent injuries, but I want those extra pounds and inches on our mob to counter the incursions from other team's mob. For me, it's all about functional-size that prevents scoring chances on us and creates chances on them.

See, if it's all about the playoffs it's ironic that we're drooling over UFAs like Nathan Horton and Ryan Clowe, who have been compromised during the playoffs because of chronic injuries. Big & tough often has nothing to do with durable.

Now Bickell is another story!

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06-23-2013, 03:38 PM
  #108
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Kinda' sounds like we're saying the same thing. I want to add more physical players for the same reason you do: To win games in the playoffs. The only thing that changes in the playoffs -- as we're seeing -- is the refs back off further and further from the rulebook and let the bar for borderline hits sink lower and lower. Basically, if the cops have deserted their posts and it's mob-rules, I want the Habs to give as good as they get. For that we need more size. Again, I don't think adding those extra pounds and inches will prevent injuries, but I want those extra pounds and inches on our mob to counter the incursions from other team's mob. For me, it's all about functional-size that prevents scoring chances on us and creates chances on them.

See, if it's all about the playoffs it's ironic that we're drooling over UFAs like Nathan Horton and Ryan Clowe, who have been compromised during the playoffs because of chronic injuries. Big & tough often has nothing to do with durable.

Now Bickell is another story!
Okay, well put. I think a problem with the makeup of the team is that because all of the skill players are pretty, um... Non-intimidating the responsibility falls to the role players. Last year we had a neutered White and sluggish Morn and Armstrong, 62 year old Halpern and Dumont aka Lapierre Jr. It's gotta get better or else Prust will get hurt again. Bourque gets dropped by Orr, etc. I defended the players on the 4th for a lot of the year but the other guys on the board were right, they weren't good enough for what this team needs from those positions.

For the record Horton is an ape and Clowe is molasses, you're right on the money size doesn't equal health and durability. But the proper mix aka a couple of Bickels is perfect thinking. Because it doesn't look like the team is going to have the coveted big nasty 3rd line shutdown centre or a psychotic beast on defence to punish other teams forwards, MB is gonna have to try and get creative in solving this problem or next year will be a repeat of this year.

Now we obviously have a **** load of picks and some great fits in the pipeline (tinordi, bealieu) but I'm still heavy on the trade market for a guy like Klesla, or someone like him. A vet shutdown guy to replace Emelin and give added depth when he's back in December.

Oops, this thread is supposed to be about something else so I'd better make this post relevant: Gionts has been made useless because Gallagher developed so quick and while he is a great player it has made the forward group too small with too many bodies that still deserve ice time and roster spots. Gionta and DD can't belong on a contending team with a makeup like the Habs currently have.

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06-23-2013, 05:21 PM
  #109
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Aside maybe from Prust and Tinordi, sometimes Moen (when he feels like it), who exactly in that line-up is at an advantage during a scrum?
Exactly my point. It's something that needs to be fixed. And we don't need to be the biggest team, but do we always have to be pushed around the way we've been?

Back in the 80s we didn't have a team packed with superstars but we had big strong players who were never, ever pushed around. That team was similar to the Bruins in that it played a defensive system and had tough grinders throughout.

We don't have this anymore. We can't grind out victories because we don't have grinders. We have smaller players who rely totally on speed alone. It doesn't work, esp in the playoffs when the refs put their whistles away.

Do you remember the Leaf game this past year? Gionta's out there and the Leafs have a bunch of goons. Bourque (who's not a tough guy himself) has to rush to his defense... and winds up getting smoked himself. It's just pathetic.

We need guys who can at least somewhat take care of themselves out there.
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Why pick on our best goals' scorer in the last few years instead of someone who doesn't put up those numbers?
Well, I would've gotten rid of DD but that's not an option as we just signed him for four years. Gallagher isn't going anywhere. That leaves Plecs and Gionta. Gionta's older, at the end of his deal and would bring something in return. We're not dealing Plecs anyway so what else do we do here?

We can't just keep going back to the well with the same group. We're too small. It's a fact. MB knows it, so do the fans. We won't win this way. Sometimes you have to make hard choices and this is one of them. Time to close the chapter and move on. Like I said, it was a mistake to sign all those guys to begin with. All we did was postpone the rebuild, lose McDonaugh and waste five years in the process. No reason to continue with this. Turn the page and move on already.

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06-23-2013, 05:40 PM
  #110
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Well, I would've gotten rid of DD but that's not an option as we just signed him for four years. Gallagher isn't going anywhere. That leaves Plecs and Gionta. Gionta's older, at the end of his deal and would bring something in return. We're not dealing Plecs anyway so what else do we do here?

We can't just keep going back to the well with the same group. We're too small. It's a fact. MB knows it, so do the fans. We won't win this way. Sometimes you have to make hard choices and this is one of them. Time to close the chapter and move on. Like I said, it was a mistake to sign all those guys to begin with. All we did was postpone the rebuild, lose McDonaugh and waste five years in the process. No reason to continue with this. Turn the page and move on already.
For the all the talk about how we can't continue being this small with 3 "smurfs" in the top-9 people tend to forget that we were the 3rd highest scoring team last year with those 3 smurfs. It's obviously not ideal to have that many smaller players but it's not the end of the world either.

It's more important that we get the right fit then it is to get rid of a small player. I'd rather start the season with those 3 guys then overpay in money/years for a big guy that ends up only scoring 15 goals a season.

Also I wouldn't take it as fact that Desharnais is here to stay new deal or not. MB didn't hesitate to send Cole packing after he came off a 35 goal season so if Desharnais struggles badly then I have no doubt Bergevin will try to deal him.

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06-23-2013, 05:48 PM
  #111
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For the all the talk about how we can't continue being this small with 3 "smurfs" in the top-9 people tend to forget that we were the 3rd highest scoring team last year with those 3 smurfs. It's obviously not ideal to have that many smaller players but it's not the end of the world either.

It's more important that we get the right fit then it is to get rid of a small player. I'd rather start the season with those 3 guys then overpay in money/years for a big guy that ends up only scoring 15 goals a season.

Also I wouldn't take it as fact that Desharnais is here to stay new deal or not. MB didn't hesitate to send Cole packing after he came off a 35 goal season so if Desharnais struggles badly then I have no doubt Bergevin will try to deal him.
Cole wasn't signed by MB.

And again, the playoffs are called totally differently. That's why a guy like Pronger would lead his teams to the finals year after year. Whistles go away and teams with size benefit from it.

Look at the Chicago Bruins series. Not a whole lot of nifty passing plays... just guys standing in front of the net paying the price to score. Rebounds, screenings, deflections... Chicago was looking out of it until Toews decided to pay the price out there in front of Chara and then they're up in the series.

Individually our smaller players are good. But it's about balance and we need more of it. We just added another smurf now in Gallagher. No way we get rid of him so what do we do? We've got another guy we need to protect now. We have to get bigger overall.

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06-23-2013, 06:15 PM
  #112
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Cole wasn't signed by MB.

And again, the playoffs are called totally differently. That's why a guy like Pronger would lead his teams to the finals year after year. Whistles go away and teams with size benefit from it.

Look at the Chicago Bruins series. Not a whole lot of nifty passing plays... just guys standing in front of the net paying the price to score. Rebounds, screenings, deflections... Chicago was looking out of it until Toews decided to pay the price out there in front of Chara and then they're up in the series.

Individually our smaller players are good. But it's about balance and we need more of it. We just added another smurf now in Gallagher. No way we get rid of him so what do we do? We've got another guy we need to protect now. We have to get bigger overall.
I know it's not common for people to get traded shortly after the GM signs them but it's not unheard of either. Bergevin doesn't seem like the person that would let his ego get in the way of doing the right thing. But admittedly that's more my gut feeling than anything else.

As far as Gionta goes, he fits your description of playoff hockey. His size doesn't stop him from producing in the playoffs, people always remember Cammy's playoff heroics on our run to the ECF and forget that Gionta was scoring a lot as well.

We added Gallagher last season and as I said we were 3rd in scoring. He's another guy that fits your description of what it takes to win in the playoffs.

If the idea is too get players who go drive the net and are willing to pay the price then I'm keeping guys like Gionta and Gallagher. If you replace Gionta with a guy whose bigger but is only going to score 15 goals next season then we will take a step back. We should try and get bigger but we can't sacrifice too much skill in doing so.

Getting Pacioretty to drive the net instead of playing on the perimeter would do a lot more to help our scoring in the playoffs then anything we can do via UFA. Hopefully his perimeter play last season was caused by nagging injuries and a condensed schedule.

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06-23-2013, 07:17 PM
  #113
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Shot% is 12.5, his best since 2006-7.
Among our top-6 shooters, only Gallagher is better (12.8).

Also Desharnais and Ryder both did better than 15% but they shot less.

So basically, you could have said the same about MaxPac, Plekanec, Eller and Galchenyuk.
You missed the point. There's nothing quite like seeing Gionta entering the zone full speed on the wing and slapping a puck directly in the goalie's logo.

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06-23-2013, 07:32 PM
  #114
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I know it's not common for people to get traded shortly after the GM signs them but it's not unheard of either. Bergevin doesn't seem like the person that would let his ego get in the way of doing the right thing. But admittedly that's more my gut feeling than anything else.

As far as Gionta goes, he fits your description of playoff hockey. His size doesn't stop him from producing in the playoffs, people always remember Cammy's playoff heroics on our run to the ECF and forget that Gionta was scoring a lot as well.

We added Gallagher last season and as I said we were 3rd in scoring. He's another guy that fits your description of what it takes to win in the playoffs.

If the idea is too get players who go drive the net and are willing to pay the price then I'm keeping guys like Gionta and Gallagher. If you replace Gionta with a guy whose bigger but is only going to score 15 goals next season then we will take a step back. We should try and get bigger but we can't sacrifice too much skill in doing so.

Getting Pacioretty to drive the net instead of playing on the perimeter would do a lot more to help our scoring in the playoffs then anything we can do via UFA. Hopefully his perimeter play last season was caused by nagging injuries and a condensed schedule.
Bobby Ryan is out there and available, big scorer who can put up 30 goals a year. We should be all over this guy. (We should've been all over him as a prospect but that's another story.) We're looking at secondary scorers man, it's not that hard to replace. Gionta goes the other way and we package somebody or something with him. Ryan's not a power forward, he's not a tough guy but at least he's at least somewhat big. We need more big in our lineup.

Nobody is saying Gionta sucks. We just need to get bigger and he's the one who's the most likely to go. So maximize the asset and move on.

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06-23-2013, 07:36 PM
  #115
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Bobby Ryan is out there and available, big scorer who can put up 30 goals a year. We should be all over this guy. (We should've been all over him as a prospect but that's another story.) We're looking at secondary scorers man, it's not that hard to replace. Gionta goes the other way and we package somebody or something with him. Ryan's not a power forward, he's not a tough guy but at least he's big. We need more big in our lineup.

Nobody is saying Gionta sucks. We just need to get bigger and he's the one who's the most likely to go. So maximize the asset and move on.
I have no problems trading Gionta for Ryan but it doesn't sound very realistic.

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06-23-2013, 07:38 PM
  #116
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I have no problems trading Gionta for Ryan but it doesn't sound very realistic.
It wouldn't be Ryan for Gionta man... not a chance.

I'm saying we should see what he'd cost. If Gionta goes back the other way in a package, great. If they don't want Gionta at all that's fine. See if we can make a trade and then deal Gionta somewhere else if we have to...

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06-24-2013, 12:53 AM
  #117
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Lafleurs Guy has it, and I think I haven't been expressing myself all that clearly.

I think Gionta is an okay hockey player at this stage of his career. But for his use, contract and position, he's an awful fit for the Habs. We can't just horde every player that can play okay - Gio is one of two smurfs too many and the other was just extended. He's got to go.

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06-24-2013, 10:52 AM
  #118
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Lafleurs Guy has it, and I think I haven't been expressing myself all that clearly.

I think Gionta is an okay hockey player at this stage of his career. But for his use, contract and position, he's an awful fit for the Habs. We can't just horde every player that can play okay - Gio is one of two smurfs too many and the other was just extended. He's got to go.
I don't see why "He's got to go". If we can get an upgrade then by all means look to move him. But if you think we have too many small players to score then how to you explain finishing 3rd overall in Goals For last year?

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06-24-2013, 11:44 AM
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I don't see why "He's got to go". If we can get an upgrade then by all means look to move him. But if you think we have too many small players to score then how to you explain finishing 3rd overall in Goals For last year?
He's got to go because we're too small overall. If you don't agree on this point then there's nothing to talk about.

I think it's pretty clear that we're too small, have been for a long time. We've got to fix this problem if we want to win anything. If you think we can win with the players we have in this lineup as is, that's fine. But I (and I think most here) think we need to get bigger up front. To get bigger some smaller players have to move.

Gionta's the path of least resistance to move so he's it.

I'm not sure what else you need explained here.

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06-24-2013, 12:17 PM
  #120
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You missed the point. There's nothing quite like seeing Gionta entering the zone full speed on the wing and slapping a puck directly in the goalie's logo.
I lose a year of my life every time that happens.

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06-24-2013, 12:21 PM
  #121
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He's got to go because we're too small overall. If you don't agree on this point then there's nothing to talk about.

I think it's pretty clear that we're too small, have been for a long time. We've got to fix this problem if we want to win anything. If you think we can win with the players we have in this lineup as is, that's fine. But I (and I think most here) think we need to get bigger up front. To get bigger some smaller players have to move.

Gionta's the path of least resistance to move so he's it.

I'm not sure what else you need explained here.
As I said before we should try to get bigger but not at the expense of talent. I don't think we will be better off replacing Gionta with a Joel Ward even though it makes us bigger. Do you?

The path of least resistance is not always the right path. Not too mention we still haven't replaced Ryder so if we get bigger with his replacement that's already a step in the right direction.

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06-24-2013, 04:35 PM
  #122
ForeverHabs97
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It's simple, you trade him.

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06-24-2013, 09:17 PM
  #123
Habsterix*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Lafleurs Guy has it, and I think I haven't been expressing myself all that clearly.

I think Gionta is an okay hockey player at this stage of his career. But for his use, contract and position, he's an awful fit for the Habs. We can't just horde every player that can play okay - Gio is one of two smurfs too many and the other was just extended. He's got to go.
Really? How much do you pay a 25-30 goals' scorer who's defensively responsible, especially one who was entitled to free agency? Look around the league, you'll see.

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06-24-2013, 11:58 PM
  #124
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Really? How much do you pay a 25-30 goals' scorer who's defensively responsible, especially one who was entitled to free agency? Look around the league, you'll see.
Ryan makes about the same that Gionta does...

Salary is not the problem. Size is.

There's nothing Gionta can do to change his size man. It is what it is. And again, it would be fine except that we're TOO SMALL.

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06-25-2013, 12:05 AM
  #125
Habs10Habs
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Originally Posted by ForeverHabs97 View Post
It's simple, you trade him.
After two serious injuries in back to back years. That's much easier said than done imo.

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