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Old
06-24-2013, 12:42 PM
  #26
stokes84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
Again, what the hell do you expect in return for Vanek? It's not going to make the team more talented than it was with Vanek, because it doesn't work that way. Do you trade in your old car for this year's model fresh off the lot without adding more to the deal?

Oshie is talented. Filppula is talented and added without the cost of talent. Other players and prospects in the organization are talented. I ask again, what kind of return do you think Vanek is going to get?
You trade for futures. Prospects and picks in a package. You certainly don't move him for a lesser player straight up.

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06-24-2013, 12:44 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
That's relative. He was the leading scorer because that team sucked at scoring goals. Just because the rest of his team doesn't score doesn't mean he's a better player for that.

He's not an elite offensive talent, he's just another solid NHL forward and certainly doesn't have the value than an elite goal scorer like Vanek does.

Goals are still the rarest, more desirable commodity in the league and the guys who score a lot of them are rare and desireable. Guys like Oshie are a much more common breed and aren't worth as much, evidenced by the fact that nobody will pay a guy with a career high of 54 points $6+ million a year, even if he wins a Selke.
jordan staal

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06-24-2013, 12:45 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
You trade for futures. Prospects and picks in a package. You certainly don't move him for a lesser player straight up.
4 yrs of 50 pts > 1 yr of 70 pts
4 yrs of prime > 1 yr of prime
4 yrs of physical/shutdown play > 1 yr of 1 dimensional offense

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06-24-2013, 12:49 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
That's what the defense-men and goalie are for

Why are hockey fans in general so anti-offense? I think people around here have a grinder ***** because they played hockey at a low level and resented all of the super talented guy who were just way better than them and that has carried over into how they feel about NHL players.

Scoring goals is still the hardest thing to do in hockey. I want my forwards to help me score goals first, any defense they provide is a secondary bonus.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who carried this theory.

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06-24-2013, 12:50 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
You trade for futures. Prospects and picks in a package. You certainly don't move him for a lesser player straight up.
The futures will be guys who project to be lesser players, that's the point. You aren't going to get a Thomas Vanek-level prospect, a Thomas Vanek-level roster player, or a draft pick likely to result in a Vanek-level prospect.

So let's be clear here, your problem isn't with Oshie, it's with trading Vanek for a roster player since no roster player that we get in return will be better than Oshie.

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06-24-2013, 12:51 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
4 yrs of 50 pts > 1 yr of 70 pts
4 yrs of prime > 1 yr of prime
4 yrs of physical/shutdown play > 1 yr of 1 dimensional offense
Scored 50 points once. Now he's going to do it 4 straight years. Gotcha.

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06-24-2013, 12:52 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
The futures will be guys who project to be lesser players, that's the point. You aren't going to get a Thomas Vanek-level prospect, a Thomas Vanek-level roster player, or a draft pick likely to result in a Vanek-level prospect.

So let's be clear here, your problem isn't with Oshie, it's with trading Vanek for a roster player since no roster player that we get in return will be better than Oshie.
My problem is you should be getting multiple assets, not one lesser asset.

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06-24-2013, 12:53 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
My problem is you should be getting multiple assets, not one lesser asset.
OK, but again then it's not about Oshie but the type of return (pick+prospect, I assume). Just understand that the picks, prospects, whatever are not at present going to be projected to be as good as Vanek or probably Oshie.

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06-24-2013, 12:54 PM
  #34
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jordan staal
And how is that working out?

Staal was given that money based upon the idea that he had un-tapped offensive potential because he played with AHL caliber wingers on the third line of a team that lacked offensive depth and still put up decent offensive numbers.

Staal is also the classic example of people overrating a player based upon his draft position, country of original, height, and last name.

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06-24-2013, 12:54 PM
  #35
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This is actually impossible. Don't you mean trade them? Surely you don't want to buy them out?
Haha, yeah I meant trading them of course.

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06-24-2013, 12:55 PM
  #36
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Haha, yeah I meant trading them of course.
You didn't include any extra assets they would bring in a trade, so I was a bit confused. Unless we're trading them purely for draft picks?

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06-24-2013, 12:57 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
And how is that working out?

Staal was given that money based upon the idea that he had un-tapped offensive potential because he played with AHL caliber wingers on the third line of a team that lacked offensive depth and still put up decent offensive numbers.

Staal is also the classic example of people overrating a player based upon his draft position, country of original, height, and last name.
It'll be working out splendidly if they start building their blueline, instead of wasting investment in goal scoring wingers (Semin)

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06-24-2013, 12:57 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
That's relative. He was the leading scorer because that team sucked at scoring goals. Just because the rest of his team doesn't score doesn't mean he's a better player for that.

He's not an elite offensive talent, he's just another solid NHL forward and certainly doesn't have the value than an elite goal scorer like Vanek does.

Goals are still the rarest, more desirable commodity in the league and the guys who score a lot of them are rare and desireable. Guys like Oshie are a much more common breed and aren't worth as much, evidenced by the fact that nobody will pay a guy with a career high of 54 points $6+ million a year, even if he wins a Selke.
None of this matters insofar as what of it is even true. Vanek has 1 year left on his contract and then is a UFA. Oshie is 3 years younger and has more years on his contract. I don't see you factoring any of this in. What exactly is your argument here, that we keep Vanek no matter what (not Buffalo's choice) or that we trade Vanek for an equal offensive player (not possible)?

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06-24-2013, 12:57 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
OK, but again then it's not about Oshie but the type of return (pick+prospect, I assume). Just understand that the picks, prospects, whatever are not at present going to be projected to be as good as Vanek or probably Oshie.
Its not about Oshie at all, it's about Oshie straight up.

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06-24-2013, 12:57 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
That's relative. He was the leading scorer because that team sucked at scoring goals. Just because the rest of his team doesn't score doesn't mean he's a better player for that.
My point is twofold. One, if goal scoring is so important, why did the Blues do so well? Two, if Oshie could be a solid, 50 point guy playing a heavy amount of defensive minutes with not particularly creative offensive linemates, why are we assuming that's all he'd be here, given a larger offensive role and more pure offensive talent on his line than any other point in his career?

Quote:
He's not an elite offensive talent, he's just another solid NHL forward and certainly doesn't have the value than an elite goal scorer like Vanek does.
0 top ten goal scoring finishes in his last four seasons. Once in the top 15. Elite is too exclusive a word for my liking here.

Quote:
Goals are still the rarest, more desirable commodity in the league and the guys who score a lot of them are rare and desireable. Guys like Oshie are a much more common breed and aren't worth as much, evidenced by the fact that nobody will pay a guy with a career high of 54 points $6+ million a year, even if he wins a Selke.
That's also because most elite two-way players never get to UFA because their teams lock them up at long term deals the minute they display that level of potential. One dimensional goal scorers are more likely to hit the open market, where bad-to-mediocre teams overpay for them because they can't attract the league's actual elite.

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06-24-2013, 12:58 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Scored 50 points once. Now he's going to do it 4 straight years. Gotcha.
do you think he'd be in the same system in Buffalo?

wouldn't playing with
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Ennis is destined to be a superstar IMO.
increase his production?

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06-24-2013, 01:04 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
None of this matters insofar as what of it is even true. Vanek has 1 year left on his contract and then is a UFA. Oshie is 3 years younger and has more years on his contract. I don't see you factoring any of this in. What exactly is your argument here, that we keep Vanek no matter what (not Buffalo's choice) or that we trade Vanek for an equal offensive player (not possible)?
My argument here is that people are underrating Vanek's value and overrating Oshie's.

You aren't going to get a 40 goal scorer or a 70 point scorer for Vanek, that much is obvious. Because either that player is in his prime (like Vanek) and therefore the trade is pointless, or because that player is younger and therefore has more value. What you should get is a package of younger players and draft picks.

I wouldn't trade Vanek straight up for Oshie. I'd rather just take some picks and prospects and develop them. That way the players are even younger and I have even more "Years of club control", since apparently that's the most valuable thing in the world around here.

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06-24-2013, 01:06 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
do you think he'd be in the same system in Buffalo?

wouldn't playing with increase his production?
Even Ennis couldn't help him if he can't stay on the ice.

Now let's go dig up old Jame posts from years past to see what he got wrong. Pretty lousy debate tactic.

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06-24-2013, 01:09 PM
  #44
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When's the last time a 40+ point elite two way forward was allowed to become UFA? Don't worry, I'll wait.

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06-24-2013, 01:11 PM
  #45
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When's the last time a 40+ point elite two way forward was allowed to become UFA? Don't worry, I'll wait.
Parise. Who is actually elite.

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06-24-2013, 01:17 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Even Ennis couldn't help him if he can't stay on the ice.

Now let's go dig up old Jame posts from years past to see what he got wrong. Pretty lousy debate tactic.
So no one should be questioned when they say things off base or wrong in another posters eyes? No one should bring it up? Whether it's 5 days, 5 weeks, 5 months, or 5 years ago?

If more posters stopped using absolutes like always, never, elite, sucks, rules, etc... When describing a player, there would be less "foot in mouth" moments for those posters. Think, then type

Ennis being now or ever a "superstar" or "elite"? Probably not. (Notice I didn't say never).

Taking you or anyone to task for using absolutes is the right thing to do. The response given, is in part, hopes that the poster will think twice before mashing the keyboard.

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06-24-2013, 01:23 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
So no one should be questioned when they say things off base or wrong in another posters eyes? No one should bring it up? Whether it's 5 days, 5 weeks, 5 months, or 5 years ago?

If more posters stopped using absolutes like always, never, elite, sucks, rules, etc... When describing a player, there would be less "foot in mouth" moments for those posters. Think, then type

Ennis being now or ever a "superstar" or "elite"? Probably not. (Notice I didn't say never).

Taking you or anyone to task for using absolutes is the right thing to do. The response given, is in part, hopes that the poster will think twice before mashing the keyboard.
When it's completely off topic and is only brought up to throw a sucker punch even though it has nothing to do with the current debate, yeah, it shouldn't be brought.

Tell you what, next time we have a debate about Ennis, feel free to bring it up. It won't get you anywhere though.

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06-24-2013, 01:33 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
My argument here is that people are underrating Vanek's value and overrating Oshie's.

You aren't going to get a 40 goal scorer or a 70 point scorer for Vanek, that much is obvious. Because either that player is in his prime (like Vanek) and therefore the trade is pointless, or because that player is younger and therefore has more value. What you should get is a package of younger players and draft picks.

I wouldn't trade Vanek straight up for Oshie. I'd rather just take some picks and prospects and develop them. That way the players are even younger and I have even more "Years of club control", since apparently that's the most valuable thing in the world around here.
OK, but your difference in approach has nothing to do with Vanek. It becomes an established, quality NHL player (Oshie) vs picks and prospects. How either of those relate to Vanek is irrelevant. What does it matter if Oshie isn't as good as Vanek offensively or in general? Is a draft pick as good as Vanek or a prospect? Instead of ******** on Oshie, why not just say "I don't want an established NHL player for Vanek, I want a pick and a prospect". Unless it is about Oshie, in which case who would be a better roster player return?

Let's be realistic though, the pick + prospect he gets aren't going to be all that great, just as Oshie isn't exactly the best player in the world. Me saying that shouldn't be misinterpreted to wrongly judge how I feel about Vanek's value on the ice, or the role of offense in the game of hockey. It's just the likely reality of the trade market. If Vanek is going to be moved, his contributions to the team become meaningless. It's not about matching those contributions, it's about getting his trade value in a return that makes sense for the team. It won't be equal to the on-ice value of Vanek, period. You know this, yet your problem with getting Oshie in return seems to be that he isn't as good as Vanek. I dunno. I'm fine with getting picks and prospects in return and have argued against Oshie as a return in the past, but at some point you need prime-age players to fill a role on the ice and in the locker room. You can't rebuild with endless picks and prospects. Oshie's as good as anyone else we'd get if we do indeed go that route.


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06-24-2013, 01:42 PM
  #49
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Parise. Who is actually elite.
So it takes a team's hand being forced by relatively severe financial trouble, and then that player is coveted by half the league?

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06-24-2013, 01:50 PM
  #50
stokes84
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So it takes a team's hand being forced by relatively severe financial trouble, and then that player is coveted by half the league?
Financial and organizational reasons are the only reason any top end player makes it to FA these days. Not sure the point you are trying to make. Are you trying to say that teams would rather pay their two way players than their goal scorers? Because the amount of money that goes to scorers in comparison would contradict that notion.

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