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Going into full rebuild is bad idea

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06-24-2013, 12:52 PM
  #51
Silence Of The Plams
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Wood when you put it that way I feel that it is better for the team to go full out with it. I really like the points you made, especially with the new alignments and all.

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06-24-2013, 12:53 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Yeah, I understand that Darcy is trying to kill the buzz, but I don't take his comments to actually reflect any news about the market. This is a guy who historically won't trade any of his pets away unless someone gives him their left nut. His "impossible" probably means he couldn't move 8, 16 and Vanek for #1 straight up.
Did you hear Regier on HH on Friday?

He said he talked to one GM in the top 5 and asked if there was anything they could offer to get their pick and the GM replied "No".

It is possible that teams value these top end prospects so much that they won't listen to the quantity for quality offers that fans & media spew endlessly.

On the flip side, if the Sabres were picking 1st overall, would you want to entertain an offer for the pick that had centered around a lot of mid-1st picks & prospects like the Sabres have to offer up today?

Unlikely.

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06-24-2013, 12:56 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by LegomyLeggio View Post
This team has been mediocre or worse with Miller & Vanek.

My concern is that if they keep those two they will remain in that purgatory of 8th to 10th in the East where they do no damage in the playoffs and they don't get premium draft picks when they miss.

It's almost like the 1980s all over again....
I'm on board with trading these guys if they want out or if a good return is offered. To suggest that Vanek/Miller are a part of the reason for mediocrity seems like piling it on out of frustration. Put together a team with similar talent and focus/effort and it's a perennial SC contender. The rest of the team was never good enough despite their production.

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06-24-2013, 01:07 PM
  #54
Layne Staley
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Originally Posted by Afinogretzky View Post
so we acquire some vets, sneak into the 8th spot, lose in the first round, and repeat 2008-2012 all over again! word.

if the goal is to win a cup, you need to get actual talent worthy of winning the cup. not put bandaids on a crappy roster. 2014 should deliver a top 3-4 pick. at that point we may have 9-10 excellent prospects who should be the core of a team ready to explode in 2016ish.
The Sabres haven't had a top 3-4 pick since 1987 but next year we should get one? No we won't. Even if we are bad this team will get hot Down the stretch and finish 10th. I am sick of waiting for a cup. Waited my whole life. And purposely tanking hasn't exactly worked wonders for Edmonton or Florida has It?

Even the Blackhawks who were able to get Toews and Kane with early picks had a failed rebuild years earlier.From 1997 to 2001, the Blackhawks had 6 top 16 draft picks. From 1997-2008 they made the playoffs ONCE.And only won one playoff game. So yeah, I really am enthused with the possibility of 10 years of practically no playoffs. I'd rather rebuild like Boston. They traded Jumbo Joe, used the cap space to sign Chara and other players and now they are a perennial power house. From 1998-2005, the Bruins had 1 top 18 pick. And since 1998 they have missed the postseason only 4 times. We aren't going to be bad enough where we rack up multiple top 5 pick. The Sabres have had 2 top 5 picks the last 26 years.

We need to make some good trades/signings and get competitive again. You think ANY top UFA will sign in Buffalo if we are purposely bad? Nope. Barely anyone wanted to sign with us when we were the best franchise in the league from 05-07. A rebuild won't work we need a retool.

And anyone who points to Thomas Vanek as part of the problem is grossly misinformed. I think it's comical people think its Vaneks fault this team is trash, alas he is only one player and in the minuscule ice time he gets he still puts up elite goal scoring numbers. Not to mention he is the toughest player on the team taking punishment game in and game out. We should be trying to add more Vanek type players not get rid of them. Again it goes back to Darcy Regier who has drafted 3 top line players in 16 years. 3. 2 of them already traded and the other is almost out the door. Regier is garbage.

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06-24-2013, 01:19 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
I'm on board with trading these guys if they want out or if a good return is offered. To suggest that Vanek/Miller are a part of the reason for mediocrity seems like piling it on out of frustration. Put together a team with similar talent and focus/effort and it's a perennial SC contender. The rest of the team was never good enough despite their production.
I'm not piling on.

I'm saying that the supporting cast without Vanek & Miller is really, really bad and all Vanek and Miller can do is elevate them to a mediocre team. That isn't a reflection on Vanek and Miller, but on the team around them.

I just would prefer to try and get as much as you can for them now, hopefully bottom out and pick top 3 the next two years, and then hopefully things start blossoming from there.

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06-24-2013, 01:23 PM
  #56
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Gotch ya.

I hope that they both basically tie Regier's hands and force a trade, because a much harder question is whether to re-sign them if they want to stay. While I might prefer that (because I think re-build and re-signing them are not mutually exclusive), much of the fanbase will implode on each other in massive debate fests for the next several years.

Edit - By forcing a trade, I think that means if both players don't eagerly arrange a contract extension during the summer, that Regier has to avoid a 'walk off with no return' scenario at all costs.

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06-24-2013, 01:26 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
The Sabres haven't had a top 3-4 pick since 1987 but next year we should get one? No we won't. Even if we are bad this team will get hot Down the stretch and finish 10th. I am sick of waiting for a cup. Waited my whole life. And purposely tanking hasn't exactly worked wonders for Edmonton or Florida has It?
Do you honestly believe what's happened in the past has anything to do with whether Buffalo will get a top 4 pick next year? As if the their Mystiqqq Aura won't allow it?? It's pretty simple, if they make their team **** they will play like **** and get a high pick. Buffalo hasn't had a pick that high in so long because they haven't been that bad in that long. Sticking with your attitude is precisely why it hasn't happened.

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06-24-2013, 01:37 PM
  #58
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A couple things I have noticed in this thread:

There are multiple ways to build a top team, tanking multiple seasons in the hopes of getting a game changing talent is not the only one and is the least respected one.

Everyone loves to pimp out the talent BS line, but how much top end talent does Boston really have?!?! Chara is a force, but beyond that they have guy that know their roles and play hard. They are talented, but they don't have a top end forward like everyone keeps stressing we need.

This brings me up to a team like Toronto. Toronto took Boston to the brink and should have won that series. This whole notion that just getting in and winning one round is all that you can strive for without top end talent is ludicrous.

I just would rather add to the talent we have. Vanek and Miller want to leave because they know that a rebuild right now is going to take at least 5 years. The young talent we have is decent but they are absolutely not game changers. We aren't drafting any game changer this year and who knows about the next couple years but recent history has shown that even the top end talent isn't going to immediately make you great. A team like Edmonton and Tampa have multiple high picks and where are they?!?

I think a lot of our problems were coaching. I think you could explore some trade avenues, Ryan, Cam, etc., and look at some of the compliance buy outs.

I just see us fading into just a low stretch of irrelevance by completely just tanking.

When it comes down to it, I just don't trust our young players to ever take that jump they need to take, and that makes me so nervous.

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06-24-2013, 01:42 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BloFan4Life View Post
When it comes down to it, I just don't trust our young players to ever take that jump they need to take, and that makes me so nervous.
Regardless if they go rebuild or reload, if the young players the Sabres already have don't pan out, this team will be mediocre or worse for the foreseeable future.

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06-24-2013, 01:50 PM
  #60
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No matter what happens I DO NOT want to go the Edmonton route of a rebuild.

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06-24-2013, 01:55 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegomyLeggio View Post
Regardless if they go rebuild or reload, if the young players the Sabres already have don't pan out, this team will be mediocre or worse for the foreseeable future.
Taking the star jump and taking the normal progression jump are two different things.

IMO our young core of Hodgson, Ennis, Foligno, Pysyk, and Myers is Vanek, Roy, Staff, Poms, Goose without the vets of Briere, Drury, Tallinder, Lydman and Spacek.

You need those vets or a couple star players.

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06-24-2013, 02:04 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by BloFan4Life View Post
Taking the star jump and taking the normal progression jump are two different things.

IMO our young core of Hodgson, Ennis, Foligno, Pysyk, and Myers is Vanek, Roy, Staff, Poms, Goose without the vets of Briere, Drury, Tallinder, Lydman and Spacek.

You need those vets or a couple star players.
So which young players do you believe in and which ones don't you believe in?

I'm confused.


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06-24-2013, 02:14 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by LegomyLeggio View Post
So which young players do you believe in and which ones don't you believe in?

I'm confused.

I don't believe that any of our young players currently in our system and the ones we can draft this year have that star quality needed to compete without the likes of good vet players. I think we will end up in the same position we have been since 2008.

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06-24-2013, 02:16 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by BloFan4Life View Post
Taking the star jump and taking the normal progression jump are two different things.

IMO our young core of Hodgson, Ennis, Foligno, Pysyk, and Myers is Vanek, Roy, Staff, Poms, Goose without the vets of Briere, Drury, Tallinder, Lydman and Spacek.

You need those vets or a couple star players.
I think Ott is perfect to be around our young core. I would like to add another player like Ott. 15 goals, hits all day, been around for a while, 26-30 years old.


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06-24-2013, 02:25 PM
  #65
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It's really not that complicated to me.

Keeping Vanek and Miller gets you closer to the 12th pick, but you're still 1000 miles from a playoff run. So you might as well get a good return on them and finish with a top 5 pick. Enough of this purgatory **** where we miss out on all the superstars.

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06-24-2013, 02:28 PM
  #66
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If we keep vanek and miller and sign a couple free agents maybe we could be a bubble team which I'd be fine with but we have to trade them at the deadline if they dont want to re-sign

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06-24-2013, 02:29 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BloFan4Life View Post
A couple things I have noticed in this thread:

There are multiple ways to build a top team, tanking multiple seasons in the hopes of getting a game changing talent is not the only one and is the least respected one.

Everyone loves to pimp out the talent BS line, but how much top end talent does Boston really have?!?! Chara is a force, but beyond that they have guy that know their roles and play hard. They are talented, but they don't have a top end forward like everyone keeps stressing we need.

This brings me up to a team like Toronto. Toronto took Boston to the brink and should have won that series. This whole notion that just getting in and winning one round is all that you can strive for without top end talent is ludicrous.
Are you ignoring other things, though, like the fact that LA was packed with top end talent, as are Pittsburgh, Chicago, and many other perennial contenders.

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06-24-2013, 02:35 PM
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Are you ignoring other things, though, like the fact that LA was packed with top end talent, as are Pittsburgh, Chicago, and many other perennial contenders.
I wouldn't say LA was packed with top end talent. Kopitar is obviously great and Quick came up clutch, but I wouldn't call them stacked.

Pitt and Chicago is what everyone loves to bring up. Newsflash, Crosby and Malkin are once in a generation type players. Toews and Kane also are above average top pick talent.

Believe it or not, when drafting high you are more than likely going to get guys like Edmonton, Tampa, of Florida got, not these superstars.

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06-24-2013, 02:35 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
If we keep vanek and miller and sign a couple free agents maybe we could be a bubble team which I'd be fine with but we have to trade them at the deadline if they dont want to re-sign
Strive for ninth. Thats our goal every year.

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06-24-2013, 02:38 PM
  #70
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If Tyler Myers returns close to form and Miller and Vanek are on the roster we most definitely will not get a top 5 pick next year, even if we trade them we probably won't land a top 5 pick.

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06-24-2013, 02:39 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
If we keep vanek and miller and sign a couple free agents maybe we could be a bubble team which I'd be fine with but we have to trade them at the deadline if they dont want to re-sign
Like the last 6 years? Ya sign me up for that again.. not

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06-24-2013, 03:03 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by BloFan4Life View Post
I don't believe that any of our young players currently in our system and the ones we can draft this year have that star quality needed to compete without the likes of good vet players. I think we will end up in the same position we have been since 2008.
Do you think that moving forward Vanek and Miller can be?

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06-24-2013, 03:03 PM
  #73
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Like the last 6 years? Ya sign me up for that again.. not
We might wven get a higher return if we waited until the deadline, and I'm not sure if I believe in the full tank or not, it puts a losing culture in the young players minds

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06-24-2013, 03:06 PM
  #74
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We might wven get a higher return if we waited until the deadline, and I'm not sure if I believe in the full tank or not, it puts a losing culture in the young players minds
Like how Crosby and Malkin were set back after the Pens were so bad their rookie season that they drafted Staal 2nd overall?

I think that losing culture stuff is overrated.

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06-24-2013, 03:06 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BloFan4Life View Post
I wouldn't say LA was packed with top end talent. Kopitar is obviously great and Quick came up clutch, but I wouldn't call them stacked.

Pitt and Chicago is what everyone loves to bring up. Newsflash, Crosby and Malkin are once in a generation type players. Toews and Kane also are above average top pick talent.

Believe it or not, when drafting high you are more than likely going to get guys like Edmonton, Tampa, of Florida got, not these superstars.
I'd sure hate to get what Tampa got because that Stamkos guy sucks

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