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Phaneuf 11th in Norris voting

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06-20-2013, 01:37 PM
  #226
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by Jtabo View Post
Not a top defender, we don't need the luxury of a Keith/Seabrook pairing as nice as it would be. We just need a Seidenberg/Regher in his prime type guy.
My top targets for the job of Dion's parnter would be Marc-Edouard Vlasic, Ryan McDonagh, Paul Martin, and Dan Hamhuis.

If we can slide one of them beside Phaneuf while keeping Gardiner, Franson, and Gunnarsson, we would be in good shape. Sigh somebody like Andrew Ference or Scott Hannan to play 3rd pair with Franson, and we'd be golden!

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06-20-2013, 01:39 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
My top targets for the job of Dion's parnter would be Marc-Edouard Vlasic, Ryan McDonagh, Paul Martin, and Dan Hamhuis.

If we can slide one of them beside Phaneuf while keeping Gardiner, Franson, and Gunnarsson, we would be in good shape. Sigh somebody like Andrew Ference or Scott Hannan to play 3rd pair with Franson, and we'd be golden!
Or do Gunnar+. No need to have a top 4 on your bottom 6.

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06-20-2013, 04:37 PM
  #228
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Or do Gunnar+. No need to have a top 4 on your bottom 6.
Gardiner and Franson can't play together on the 2nd pair. Gunnarsson is needed to stabalize Gards. Leave Franson on the 3rd pair and load him up with PP time like last year.

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06-20-2013, 05:28 PM
  #229
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Phanuef is far from perfect. But he is a top 30 defenseman in the league. He might not be sexy luke suter, weber, chara, karlsson.. but he hasn't had a # 2 defenseman to play with.

Lets not forget what we paid to get him, and would have you liked to lose even more draft picks and prospects to get a higher profile defenseman ?

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06-20-2013, 05:58 PM
  #230
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Call me crazy or lunatic or whatever but I'd rather have Phaneuf then Kris Letang... Then again Letang finally got exposed for being overrated this year... but I always thought he was overrated

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06-20-2013, 06:03 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
My top targets for the job of Dion's parnter would be Marc-Edouard Vlasic, Ryan McDonagh, Paul Martin, and Dan Hamhuis.

If we can slide one of them beside Phaneuf while keeping Gardiner, Franson, and Gunnarsson, we would be in good shape. Sigh somebody like Andrew Ference or Scott Hannan to play 3rd pair with Franson, and we'd be golden!
We will have to pay a mighty price for some of these guys. Would we be better off waiting for Finn, Percy, Rielly?

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06-20-2013, 07:01 PM
  #232
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We will have to pay a mighty price for some of these guys. Would we be better off waiting for Finn, Percy, Rielly?
By the time those guys are ready to be Phaneuf's partner, he will be declining. Rielly doesn't fit what Phaneuf needs in a partner, especially if he is going to remain in a shut-down role. Finn and Percy do, but they are at least a few seasons away. In 5 years, I can see Finn being in the same group as the guys I listed - I see him developing into a Hamhuis kind of player. Percy remind me of Gunnarsson.

If we keep both Kessel and Phaneuf, we better start building to win within the next 5 years. Both Kessel and Phaneuf rely a lot more on their physical tools than their mental tools, which means they are likely going to be hit hard when they start to decline physically.

If our goal is to compete with Kessel and Phaneuf, we absolutely need a really strong partner for Phaneuf. If we could get Vlasic, Hamhuis, or McDonagh for Joffrey Lupul, I'd pull the trigger without hesitation. Paul Martin's a different story, since he's older and on a shorter contract, but he's still be a perfect match for Phaneuf.

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06-20-2013, 07:07 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
By the time those guys are ready to be Phaneuf's partner, he will be declining. Rielly doesn't fit what Phaneuf needs in a partner, especially if he is going to remain in a shut-down role. Finn and Percy do, but they are at least a few seasons away. In 5 years, I can see Finn being in the same group as the guys I listed - I see him developing into a Hamhuis kind of player. Percy remind me of Gunnarsson.

If we keep both Kessel and Phaneuf, we better start building to win within the next 5 years. Both Kessel and Phaneuf rely a lot more on their physical tools than their mental tools, which means they are likely going to be hit hard when they start to decline physically.

If our goal is to compete with Kessel and Phaneuf, we absolutely need a really strong partner for Phaneuf. If we could get Vlasic, Hamhuis, or McDonagh for Joffrey Lupul, I'd pull the trigger without hesitation. Paul Martin's a different story, since he's older and on a shorter contract, but he's still be a perfect match for Phaneuf.
Why would we trade one of our best forwards if we want to compete with Kessel and Phaneuf? I understand you have to give something good in order to get something back, but Lupul is too valuable to us. Without Lupul our secondary scoring takes a nose-dive. IF we are looking to make a big trade to improve our team, it's going to have to be prospects/picks going the other way. Otherwi

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06-20-2013, 09:15 PM
  #234
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Why would we trade one of our best forwards if we want to compete with Kessel and Phaneuf? I understand you have to give something good in order to get something back, but Lupul is too valuable to us. Without Lupul our secondary scoring takes a nose-dive. IF we are looking to make a big trade to improve our team, it's going to have to be prospects/picks going the other way. Otherwi
It would be nice to have Lupul as a secondary scorer, but we need a defenseman way more.

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06-20-2013, 09:17 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Gardiner and Franson can't play together on the 2nd pair. Gunnarsson is needed to stabalize Gards. Leave Franson on the 3rd pair and load him up with PP time like last year.
Gardiner and Franson played excellent together in the playoffs. Don't see why it couldn't work.

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06-20-2013, 09:27 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by TMLblue75 View Post
Gardiner and Franson played excellent together in the playoffs. Don't see why it couldn't work.
You really think Carlyle is going to use two defensively suspect players together on a regular basis? If they are together, they won't play much, which defeats the purpose anyway.

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06-21-2013, 12:34 AM
  #237
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Carlyle's biggest mistake this year was overplaying "defensive dmen" like holzer, frasor, kostka, o'byrne and underplaying "defensively suspect dmen" like gardiner, franson, liles.

once injuries finally forced him to play all those "defensively suspect dmen" together, the team played its best hockey of the season - offensively AND defensively.

Gardiner and franson were a dominant pairing in the playoffs. if carlyle splits them up so he can put a plug like fraser in there instead, then he's a bad coach.

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06-21-2013, 12:42 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Carlyle's biggest mistake this year was overplaying "defensive dmen" like holzer, frasor, kostka, o'byrne and underplaying "defensively suspect dmen" like gardiner, franson, liles.

once injuries finally forced him to play all those "defensively suspect dmen" together, the team played its best hockey of the season - offensively AND defensively.

Gardiner and franson were a dominant pairing in the playoffs. if carlyle splits them up so he can put a plug like fraser in there instead, then he's a bad coach.
At some points in the season it was getting out of hand and had a lot of people question wtf Carlyle was doing. Plug defencemen made mistake after mistake and continued to get icetime over roster players like Liles and Gardiner. If you're going to have a player making mistakes, why wouldn't it the young player who actually has a future on the team.

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06-21-2013, 08:27 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Al14 View Post
Nicklas Lidström!!!

Bobby Orr

Ray Bourque

Need more examples, or, are the above three enough?
what about a AAAAA d-man? if you are going to make **** up why stop at 3 A's?

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06-21-2013, 08:43 AM
  #240
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what about a AAAAA d-man? if you are going to make **** up why stop at 3 A's?
Olli Malmivaara

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06-21-2013, 10:15 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Durrr View Post
At some points in the season it was getting out of hand and had a lot of people question wtf Carlyle was doing. Plug defencemen made mistake after mistake and continued to get icetime over roster players like Liles and Gardiner. If you're going to have a player making mistakes, why wouldn't it the young player who actually has a future on the team.
To be fair, Gardiner's defensive play improved ten-fold in the playoffs. I lost count of the amount of times he used his skating to gain body-positioning on the Boston forwards and strip them of the puck. Clearly Carlyle's work with Gardiner in practices paid off.

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06-21-2013, 06:27 PM
  #242
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what about a AAAAA d-man? if you are going to make **** up why stop at 3 A's?
Yeah sure, I'm making things up including my coaching experience!!!

Look, at a coaching clinic I attended many years ago, one of the coaching experts shared a rating system he used as an NHL scout.

Here it is:

AAA = a triple A player was considered to be a star player with generational talent.

AA = a double A player was considered to be a star player with elite talent.

A = a single A player was considered to be a 1st line forward, no. 2 defenseman, or starting goaltender.

BBB = a triple B player was considered to be 2nd line forward, no. 3-4 defenseman, or a experienced no. 1 goaltender (journeyman).

BB = a double B player was considered to be 3rd line forward, no. 5-6 defenseman, or a backup goaltender.

B = a single B player was considered to be 4th line forward, no. 7 defenseman, or a 3rd or depth goaltender.

I'm not going to go through the C ratings, however, they relate to the quality of players at the minor league level.

Today, there are many rating systems in use such as the classic 1 to 10 numbering system and other alphabet systems used to rate development potential.

Now, please accept my apology for knowing a little bit about the game of hockey.

Have a nice, day!

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06-21-2013, 06:47 PM
  #243
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We really need a more competent version of Fraser, just as strong but a better skater to play with phaneuf.

Franson isn't a defensive liability IMO. I really liked that pair in the playoffs.

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06-21-2013, 11:33 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Al14 View Post
Yeah sure, I'm making things up including my coaching experience!!!

Look, at a coaching clinic I attended many years ago, one of the coaching experts shared a rating system he used as an NHL scout.

Here it is:

AAA = a triple A player was considered to be a star player with generational talent.

AA = a double A player was considered to be a star player with elite talent.

A = a single A player was considered to be a 1st line forward, no. 2 defenseman, or starting goaltender.

BBB = a triple B player was considered to be 2nd line forward, no. 3-4 defenseman, or a experienced no. 1 goaltender (journeyman).

BB = a double B player was considered to be 3rd line forward, no. 5-6 defenseman, or a backup goaltender.

B = a single B player was considered to be 4th line forward, no. 7 defenseman, or a 3rd or depth goaltender.

I'm not going to go through the C ratings, however, they relate to the quality of players at the minor league level.

Today, there are many rating systems in use such as the classic 1 to 10 numbering system and other alphabet systems used to rate development potential.

Now, please accept my apology for knowing a little bit about the game of hockey.

Have a nice, day!
And how many current AAA defenseman are in the NHL today?

Possibly one?

Phaneuf is easily a AA according to your 'ratings'.

As a coach myself, Dion is that guy I pray for and hold on to.
He's a leader, a workhorse, heavy hitter who can rack up the points. He may not be Bobby Orr, but he's certainly a guy you build around.

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06-22-2013, 12:07 AM
  #245
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the only AAA d man is Karlsson

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06-22-2013, 06:33 AM
  #246
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the only AAA d man is Karlsson
He needs to establish himself more. Currently there isn't a AAA dman in the league. The most recent were Pronger and Lidstrom.

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06-23-2013, 02:59 PM
  #247
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You really think Carlyle is going to use two defensively suspect players together on a regular basis? If they are together, they won't play much, which defeats the purpose anyway.
He had them together during the most crucial games of the year. It's really not a stretch to think he'd keep them paired up, especially after their solid performance.

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06-23-2013, 03:23 PM
  #248
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He had them together during the most crucial games of the year. It's really not a stretch to think he'd keep them paired up, especially after their solid performance.
They wound up together out of necessity. Gardiner might never have even dressed if not for Kostka breaking his finger. Then Fraser gets KOed, which forced the break-up of the Fraser-Franson pairing.

Maybe Carlyle keeps them together, but it's not like he really wanted them together to begin with. I know I wouldn't play them together.

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06-24-2013, 02:59 PM
  #249
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how was pietrangelo not in the top 10?

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06-24-2013, 03:14 PM
  #250
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You really think Carlyle is going to use two defensively suspect players together on a regular basis? If they are together, they won't play much, which defeats the purpose anyway.
If he played them together in the playoffs and they excelled why wouldn't he continue to do so next season? I think they'd be fine together and the Leafs would likely have the puck more often than not with those two on the ice anyway. The way I see Franson, he's a hybrid stay-at-home guy anyway, a two-way defenseman, with solid puck skills.

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how was pietrangelo not in the top 10?
Because the system is flawed. Dion being 11th doesn't mean anything either. He got 0 1st place votes and I'd argue that means more than being 11th anyway


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