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Old
06-24-2013, 02:37 PM
  #51
struckbyaparkedcar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Are you trying to say that teams would rather pay their two way players than their goal scorers? Because the amount of money that goes to scorers in comparison would contradict that notion.
Precisely.

And cap hit is a poor evaluation method.

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06-24-2013, 02:51 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Precisely.

And cap hit is a poor evaluation method.
I'm not sure there is any clearer way to judge how much a team values a player then by how much they are willing to pay them. It's pretty cut and dry.

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06-24-2013, 03:02 PM
  #53
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I was sorta wondering what y'all would think of Guillaume Latendresse on that sort of tryout deal. He's a top-6 talent with issues that could conceivably go away.

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06-24-2013, 03:05 PM
  #54
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This just in, Brad Richards > Ryan Callahan.

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06-24-2013, 03:13 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
This just in, Brad Richards > Ryan Callahan.
That's not just in. Brad Richards is an all star with a Conn Smythe on his resume. Brad Richards, at the peak of his powers >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ryan Callahan, and he got paid because of it.

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06-24-2013, 04:22 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
I was sorta wondering what y'all would think of Guillaume Latendresse on that sort of tryout deal. He's a top-6 talent with issues that could conceivably go away.
Sure, sounds good. But he would get more than 1m/per I guess.

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06-24-2013, 04:30 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
That's not just in. Brad Richards is an all star with a Conn Smythe on his resume. Brad Richards, at the peak of his powers >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ryan Callahan, and he got paid because of it.
Peak of his powers huh...

I agree with what you're saying here, but I don't agree that cap hit necessarily indicates a better player.

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06-24-2013, 05:07 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I haven't made any changes, just updated the things that changed...
---------------
Jame Offseason Plan v1.0
5 Most important steps in the plan

1.) Sign a head coach with experience working through a rebuild and developing players

2.) Find a suitable trade destination for Miller

3.) Sign appropriate players to augment the roster. Acquire players that allow your youth to develop at the proper pace (dependent on the player). Do NOT force the youth movement.

4.) Do not make any "Leino" signings. No quick fixes. Commit to the long term plan.

5.) Extensions. Work on short term extension for Vanek (1-2 yrs), do NOT sign long term extension. Work on long term extension for Ott (3-4 yrs)
----------------------------------------

1. Head Coach: Tom Renney

He built the Rangers prospect system that's been feeding Sather's stupidity for years. He comes from the player development side of the game, and that is a perfect fit for our current rebuild. He currently works in a system we've been trying and failing at implementing for years (associate coach with Detroit). He has experience working with a rebulding team (Edmonton). And there is the whole Gare/Family connection, and we know how big Terry is on family





2. Ryan Miller to Phoenix for David Rundblad

- Ryan Miller's personality needs to go
- Phoenix likely does not want to pay Mike Smith the long term, big dollar contract he may command as an UFA
- Miller gives them a bridge contract, and likely behind that defense/system, gets them back to the playoffs for extra revenue, which is really all that matters out in the desert
- For Miller, he gets to play behind a team that makes Bryzgalov and Smith Vezina candidates... not to shabby for the year before going onto the free agent market for the first time. Miller will hit free agency with incredible numbers.
- For what it's worth.... Phoenix is pretty close to LA, relative to the rest of the NHL....(wife)
- Runblad is a blue chip prospect on the cusp of breaking into the NHL. He's a right handed defensemen who would fit right into the group of defensemen being developed right now (Myers, Pysyk, McNabb)
- Buffalo retains 20% of Miller's contract (1.25 mil)

3. Sign the following free agents

- Rob Scuderi - 3 yrs / 10 million / 3.333 cap
That's more than he makes today. 2 Cups.

- Bryan Bickell - 3 yrs / 7 million / 2.333 cap
Hard nosed player. 1 cup

- Anton Khudobin - 2 yrs / 4.0 million / 2.0 cap

- John Scott - 2 yrs / 1.9 million / .950 cap 1 yr / .750
He can play a regular 4th line shift. He's a great character guy.

3. Waive
- Put Gerbe on waivers. No one will claim him. He can be a vet in Rochester


3. RFA signings

- Cody Hodgson - 6 yrs / 30 million / 5.0 cap
(choosing to go the long term "belief" route, vs the short term "prove it" route)

- Mike Weber - 3 yrs / 6.75 / 2.25 cap

- Jhonas Enroth - 2 yrs / 3.5 / 1.75 cap 2 yrs / 2.5 / 1.25

- Bryan Flynn - 2 yrs / 3.0 / 1.5 cap
(1st year is 2 way, 2nd year 1 way)

3. Qualifying offers for:
Matt Hackett
Luke Adam
Corey Tropp
Nick Crawford

3. Let Walk :
Jacob Lagace
Drew Schiestel
(hehehe )



4. AVOIDED

5. Extend Vanek and Ott

- Vanek 2 yr extension / 16 million / 8.0 cap (after 13-14 season)
Vanek has 3 more years to see if the Sabres can turn it around quickly. Verbal agreement that he can seek a trade during last year of deal.

NOTE : If Vanek is not receptive to this plan, he goes on the block at the trade deadline

- Ott 4 yr extension / 16 million / 4.0 cap (after 13-14 season)


2013-2014 roster (START of season)

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Thomas Vanek ($7.143m) / Cody Hodgson ($5.000m) / Drew Stafford ($4.000m)
Tyler Ennis ($2.813m) / Steve Ott ($2.950m) / Marcus Foligno ($0.900m)
Ville Leino ($4.500m) / Mikhail Grigorenko ($1.775m) / Bryan Bickell ($2.333m)
John Scott ($0.900m) / Kevin Porter ($0.538m) / Patrick Kaleta ($1.250m)
Corey Tropp ($0.578m)
DEFENSEMEN
Christian Ehrhoff ($4.000m) / Tyler Myers ($5.500m)
Mike Weber ($2.250m) / Andrej Sekera ($2.750m)
Rob Scuderi ($3.333m) / Mark Pysyk ($0.870m)
Chad Ruhwedel ($0.925m)
GOALTENDERS
Anton Khudobin ($2.000m)
Jhonas Enroth ($1.750m)
OTHER
Buried: Cody McCormick ($0.275m)
Buried: Nathan Gerbe ($0.525m)
RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS (3.180% of upper limit)
Jason Pominville ($0.795mó0.2%) Ryan Miller ($1.250mó20.0%)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,101,357; BONUSES: $850,000
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $3,048,643

Prospects in Rochester:
Forwards: Girgensons, Armia, Larsson, Flynn, Adam
Defense : McNabb, Rundblad, JGL, Crawford
Goalie : Hackett, Makarov

This is a transition Roster... the worst thing we can do is force the youth...

Future Outlook beyond 2014....aka the Dream '16 plan

Buyout : Leino (before start of 14-15 season, UNLESS he proves otherwise in 13-14)

FORWARDS
Top Scoring Line : Thomas Vanek ($8.000m) / Cody Hodgson ($5.000m) / Joel Armia ($1.275m)
Other Options: Drew Stafford ($4.000m), Tyler Ennis ($4.500m), Mikhail Grigorenko ($1.775m)


Shutdown Line : Zemgus Girgensons ($1.400m) / Johan Larsson ($1.275m) / Steve Ott ($4.000m)
Other Options : Marcus Foligno ($1.275m), Daniel Catenacci ($0.900m), Justin Kea ($0.700m), Patrick Kaleta ($1.400m), Kevin Porter ($0.800m), Brian Flynn ($1.200m)

Ozone Line : Tyler Ennis ($4.500m) / Mikhail Grigorenko ($1.775m) / Bryan Bickell ($2.333m)
Other Options : Drew Stafford ($4.000m), Joel Armia ($1.275m), Marcus Foligno ($1.275m), Daniel Catenacci ($0.900m)

Energy Line : Daniel Catenacci ($0.900m) / Justin Kea ($0.700m) / Patrick Kaleta ($1.400m)
Other Options : Marcus Foligno ($1.275m), Zemgus Girgensons ($1.400m), Johan Larsson ($1.275m), Steve Ott ($4.000m)
Corey Tropp ($0.850m), John Scott ($0.900m), , Kevin Porter ($0.800m), Brian Flynn ($1.200m)

DEFENSE (options)
Minute Eaters : Christian Ehrhoff ($4.000m) / Tyler Myers ($5.500m)
Other Options : Andrej Sekera ($2.750m), Mark Pysyk ($1.750m)

Shutdown Pair : Mike Weber ($2.250m) / Andrej Sekera ($2.750m)
Other Options : Rob Scuderi ($3.333m), Tyler Myers ($5.500m), Chad Ruhwedel ($0.925m)

3rd Pair : Brayden McNabb ($1.250m) / Mark Pysyk ($1.750m)
Other Options : Rob Scuderi, ($3.333m) Chad Ruhwedel ($0.925m), David Rundblad, ($1.250m)


GOALTENDERS (Options)
Anton Khudobin ($2.000m)
Jhonas Enroth ($1.750m)
Matt Hackett ($1.250m)
Andrey Makarov ($0.875m)

NOTE: None of the potential HIGH QUALITY prospects to be acquired in the upcoming draft(s) are accounted for
I don't mind most of this, but Bickell is gonna get 5 year, 15 million at a min

No way Vanek accepts a 2 year extension

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Old
06-24-2013, 05:27 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stop Winnin View Post
Peak of his powers huh...

I agree with what you're saying here, but I don't agree that cap hit necessarily indicates a better player.
I'm pretty sure he signed his contract based on the thought that he would be the same player he was at the time he signed the contract, which was a legitimate no. 1 center. You don't sign a huge contract unless you've shown you can be a special player.

Who signs huge contracts? Elite scorers, no. 1 defensemen, franchise goaltenders. 50 point, two way role players don't make that list because they aren't as coveted.

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06-24-2013, 06:38 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I'm pretty sure he signed his contract based on the thought that he would be the same player he was at the time he signed the contract, which was a legitimate no. 1 center. You don't sign a huge contract unless you've shown you can be a special player.

Who signs huge contracts? Elite scorers, no. 1 defensemen, franchise goaltenders. 50 point, two way role players don't make that list because they aren't as coveted.
There's been plenty of 50pt 2 way players that signed huge contracts. Names like Drury, Holik, Doan, Linden, Peca spring to mind. Your earlier example of Brad Richards while scoring a bit more than 50pts a season is a 2 way center that happened to have the wheels fall off. The simple fact that a player hits UFA status and has teams bidding for him arbitrarily raises his worth in dollars but not necessarily his worth on the ice. The inherent risk is when the wheels fall off and his value plummets, especially with the recapture rules and the fact that his salary counts if you attempt to bury him. I just happen to find it funny when it happens to Sather as he truly deserves to get saddled with the Holik / Gomez contracts that he throws out.

Jame et al saying that Oshie for Vanek would be a fair trade is due to the simple fact that Vanek is not going to take a 2 or 3yr deal. He's going to want 5 at a minimum which puts the risk squarely onto whatever team acquires him as to when he hits that wall, and you're stuck with a 6 to 7mil per season cap hit on a player that's not performing.

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Old
06-24-2013, 06:52 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I'm pretty sure he signed his contract based on the thought that he would be the same player he was at the time he signed the contract, which was a legitimate no. 1 center. You don't sign a huge contract unless you've shown you can be a special player.
And that belief was unfounded because the New York front office couldn't get over raw offensive production. Kind of like what you're doing now.

Quote:
Who signs huge contracts? Elite scorers, no. 1 defensemen, franchise goaltenders. 50 point, two way role players don't make that list because they aren't as coveted.
And those 50 point checking liners often have more trade value. Which is kind of more relevant to this entire argument, which stemmed from a comparison of Vanek and Oshie's trade value relative to each other.

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06-24-2013, 06:57 PM
  #62
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I'd be in favor of Oshie if he grew up and started using his proper name.

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Old
06-24-2013, 07:12 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
There's been plenty of 50pt 2 way players that signed huge contracts. Names like Drury, Holik, Doan, Linden, Peca spring to mind. Your earlier example of Brad Richards while scoring a bit more than 50pts a season is a 2 way center that happened to have the wheels fall off. The simple fact that a player hits UFA status and has teams bidding for him arbitrarily raises his worth in dollars but not necessarily his worth on the ice. The inherent risk is when the wheels fall off and his value plummets, especially with the recapture rules and the fact that his salary counts if you attempt to bury him. I just happen to find it funny when it happens to Sather as he truly deserves to get saddled with the Holik / Gomez contracts that he throws out.

Jame et al saying that Oshie for Vanek would be a fair trade is due to the simple fact that Vanek is not going to take a 2 or 3yr deal. He's going to want 5 at a minimum which puts the risk squarely onto whatever team acquires him as to when he hits that wall, and you're stuck with a 6 to 7mil per season cap hit on a player that's not performing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
And that belief was unfounded because the New York front office couldn't get over raw offensive production. Kind of like what you're doing now.


And those 50 point checking liners often have more trade value. Which is kind of more relevant to this entire argument, which stemmed from a comparison of Vanek and Oshie's trade value relative to each other.
Of the 50 highest cap hits in today's NHL, only one is an ""elite 50 point two way player" like you guys are talking about. Jordan Staal at 46. You guys can go around agreeing with each other, convincing one another how right you have it, but scorers have been and always will be more coveted and more in demand than two way players. And those two way players don't have more trade value if they are at the same points in their careers, ever.

http://capgeek.com/leaders/?season=2...on=-1&limit=50

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06-24-2013, 07:24 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Of the 50 highest cap hits in today's NHL, only one is an ""elite 50 point two way player" like you guys are talking about. Jordan Staal at 46. You guys can go around agreeing with each other, convincing one another how right you have it, but scorers have been and always will be more coveted and more in demand than two way players. And those two way players don't have more trade value if they are at the same points in their careers, ever.

http://capgeek.com/leaders/?season=2...on=-1&limit=50
Parise, Kopitar, Datsyuk, Toews, Zetterberg?

Not that I disagree with offense being favored, but give these guys some credit too

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06-24-2013, 07:26 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Of the 50 highest cap hits in today's NHL, only one is an ""elite 50 point two way player" like you guys are talking about. Jordan Staal at 46. You guys can go around agreeing with each other, convincing one another how right you have it, but scorers have been and always will be more coveted and more in demand than two way players. And those two way players don't have more trade value if they are at the same points in their careers, ever.

http://capgeek.com/leaders/?season=2...on=-1&limit=50
Scoring goals gets you the payday as evidenced by looking at these highly paid players, that are completely worth their minimal 5.5 mil per cap hit like Cammalleri, Statsny, Heatly, Gaborik, Zajac, Horcoff et al.

The difference is that they're not at the same point in their career. Vanek is 1yr away from UFA, where he'll be able to sign with anyone for however much money they'll care to pony up, Oshie or a similar player will be under club control for a couple years hence the reason why he'd be more valuable to a rebuild.

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Old
06-24-2013, 07:27 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Paradigm View Post
Parise, Kopitar, Datsyuk, Toews, Zetterberg?
We are talking about the 50 point variety, not the 70+ point variety. Those are special players that fall into both the top line scorer category and elite defensive category.

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06-24-2013, 07:31 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
We are talking about the 50 point variety, not the 70+ point variety. Those are special players that fall into both the top line scorer category and elite defensive category.
Gotcha; sorry, only skimmed through this page

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06-24-2013, 07:39 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
Scoring goals gets you the payday as evidenced by looking at these highly paid players, that are completely worth their minimal 5.5 mil per cap hit like Cammalleri, Statsny, Heatly, Gaborik, Zajac, Horcoff et al.

The difference is that they're not at the same point in their career. Vanek is 1yr away from UFA, where he'll be able to sign with anyone for however much money they'll care to pony up, Oshie or a similar player will be under club control for a couple years hence the reason why he'd be more valuable to a rebuild.
So, like I said in my first post, we are downgrading because we are so pathetic that we can't keep our own good players. If thats the best Darcy can do, even Pegula would have to take notice.

Darcy: "But at least we don't have to worry about trading this downgrade for another downgrade for another two years."so in two years, when Oshie doesn't want to re-sign here, we can contemplate trading him for a no. 6 defenseman because he only has one year left. The asset management is asinine if you only come away with Oshie for Vanek.

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06-24-2013, 07:47 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
So, like I said in my first post, we are downgrading because we are so pathetic that we can't keep our own good players. If thats the best Darcy can do, even Pegula would have to take notice.

Darcy: "But at least we don't have to worry about trading this downgrade for another downgrade for another two years."so in two years, when Oshie doesn't want to re-sign here, we can contemplate trading him for a no. 6 defenseman because he only has one year left. The asset management is asinine if you only come away with Oshie for Vanek.
Letting go of Vanek and Miller doesn't mean we're "so pathetic that we can't keep our own good players". It's a rebuild, that is commonly the sort of thing that happens. These guys may as well be UFAs in that if they aren't getting offered huge money they could just say "I'll wait for the open market", yet it doesn't make sense to pay them huge money considering our situation + their track records.

The idea that we'd losing Vanek and Miller because they hate Buffalo and don't want to play here is ridiculous. Vanek is contemplating his future primarily because we've staked our claim as a rebuilding team. You think this would only happen to Buffalo?

What the hell would we do BUT downgrade if we're trading Miller and Vanek with 1 year on their contracts? This is how it works for every team in every sport. Don't blame Darcy for what the laws of common sense dictate the return will be.

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06-24-2013, 07:51 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
This is how it works for every team in every sport. Don't blame Darcy for what the laws of common sense dictate the return will be.
Unfortunately this is lost on some fans. They think this is unique to Buffalo or Regier's mismanagement. Silly rabbit.

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06-24-2013, 07:55 PM
  #71
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A. The fact that we are calling this trade a "common sense" return shows that common sense doesn't mean much around here.

B. Why would we not blame Darcy for painting us into a corner where his only option is to trade his two best players? It is pathetic.

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06-24-2013, 08:00 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
A. The fact that we are calling this trade a "common sense" return shows that common sense doesn't mean much around here.

B. Why would we not blame Darcy for painting us into a corner where his only option is to trade his two best players? It is pathetic.
How would he have painted himself into a corner? Like... what else could he have done?

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06-24-2013, 08:02 PM
  #73
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How would he have painted himself into a corner? Like... what else could he have done?
Not fail at putting a team together?

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06-24-2013, 08:10 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Not fail at putting a team together?
OK, so his team sucked and he's blowing it up for a rebuild. I thought that was the accepted premise. That he's possibly moving veterans due to the rebuild doesn't mean Buffalo sucks and is pathetic, that's just how it works. If you want to criticize them for failing and requiring a rebuild in the first place by all means, but I feel like it's a separate thing.

We're all frustrated that the Sabres have sucked but most of us are accepting that the rebuild is a necessary, good thing in order for the next go at a team to not fail and suck. That doesn't mean we have to get rid of Vanek as either way works out for us (Vanek or the return we'd get), however Vanek understandably may not want to remain through the rebuild. It's not really a big deal to me even though I really would hate to see him play for another team.

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06-24-2013, 08:14 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Not fail at putting a team together?
The Devils put together a Stanley Cup contender and lost in the Finals but their best player decided to leave in FA so I guess that means that Lou failed at putting together a decent team. Hence, Lou is a lousy GM as he didn't get anything when Parise left. Poile put together a contender in Nashville yet one of their best defensemen left and he didn't get anything for him and their other top defenseman signed a RFA offer sheet to leave so he's definitely a failure as a GM.

Its Vanek's choice if he wants to stay or go. If Buffalo sucks all year and we retain Vanek via a contract all well and good, if they suck all year and he walks on 1 July then Darcy is a failure. If they're in contention and they decide to keep him as there's a chance at the playoffs / advancing in the playoffs then he's doing what's best for that season at the expense of what's best for the franchise. His job is to put together a team that can compete for big shiny, if that means moving him for picks and prospects because its best for the franchise than well and good; if it means moving him for a downgrade in an NHL player with team contral as that's the best offer than so be it.

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