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Going into full rebuild is bad idea

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Old
06-24-2013, 03:08 PM
  #76
haseoke39
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
No matter what happens I DO NOT want to go the Edmonton route of a rebuild.
This is the kind of thing Edmonton fans are putting in the bank to cash in on three years from now when they're hoisting the cup.

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06-24-2013, 03:09 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
This is the kind of thing Edmonton fans are putting in the bank to cash in on three years from now when they're hoisting the cup.
Maybe if they completely overhaul their team...

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06-24-2013, 03:25 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
I'd sure hate to get what Tampa got because that Stamkos guy sucks
Exactly right.

Tampa has the league's purest goalscorer.

Edmonton is going to destroy **** in a couple years. All of their top young forwards are scoring on pace with other young breakout stars at this age, they're just a couple years behind. And they've got nothing around them yet. I'd kill, kill for Edmonton's roster, because they're going to be hoisting the cup somewhere between 3-5 years from now.

Who has Florida drafted? From 2004 to 2009, their first picks in the draft were 14th, 31st, 10th, 10th, 20th, and 7th. And that's exactly why Buffalo should not follow their model. They keep trying to "stockpile talent" from the middle of the draft and never get any good ones, sound like anything we keep hearing people say around here??

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06-24-2013, 03:32 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
Maybe if they completely overhaul their team...
At age 19, Nail Yakupov put up .65 points per game. As a 19 year old, Steven Stamkos put up .58.

At age 21, Taylor Hall is better than a point per game player.

Nugent-Hopkins puts up 52 points in 62 games as an 18 year old before having a hiccup in a shortened season this year.

Those are the guys you build around. Then you get into their secondary guys, most of whom are better prospects than anyone we've got, too. They need to build around them, but Buffalo doesn't get anywhere close to guys of Edmonton's talent as long as we keep perpetually "retooling."

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06-24-2013, 03:40 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
At age 19, Nail Yakupov put up .65 points per game. As a 19 year old, Steven Stamkos put up .58.

At age 21, Taylor Hall is better than a point per game player.

Nugent-Hopkins puts up 52 points in 62 games as an 18 year old before having a hiccup in a shortened season this year.

Those are the guys you build around. Then you get into their secondary guys, most of whom are better prospects than anyone we've got, too. They need to build around them, but Buffalo doesn't get anywhere close to guys of Edmonton's talent as long as we keep perpetually "retooling."
The numbers for Nail mean nothing. Points in a rookie season don't predict anything, especially a shortened one. I do think he'll be a very good point producer, but the data is meaningless to me.

We know Edmonton's forwards can put up points. Hall in particular has emerged as one of the best offensive wingers in the NHL. But they haven't done anything to prove they have the right mix of players to win. Most of the roster outside of the guys you mention is a mess. The team is awful defensively. They obviously have the capacity to be a very dangerous team but to sit there and talk about hoisting the Cup in 3 years, come on. Pittsburgh got a bit lucky to lift the Cup and they don't look like they're going to do it again any time soon.

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06-24-2013, 03:57 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
The numbers for Nail mean nothing. Points in a rookie season don't predict anything, especially a shortened one. I do think he'll be a very good point producer, but the data is meaningless to me.

We know Edmonton's forwards can put up points. Hall in particular has emerged as one of the best offensive wingers in the NHL. But they haven't done anything to prove they have the right mix of players to win. Most of the roster outside of the guys you mention is a mess. The team is awful defensively. They obviously have the capacity to be a very dangerous team but to sit there and talk about hoisting the Cup in 3 years, come on. Pittsburgh got a bit lucky to lift the Cup and they don't look like they're going to do it again any time soon.
Hopefully they don't look to Tampa Bay for clues on how to surround elite offensive players with guys that can shut down the other team enough to win.


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06-24-2013, 04:31 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
The numbers for Nail mean nothing. Points in a rookie season don't predict anything, especially a shortened one. I do think he'll be a very good point producer, but the data is meaningless to me.

We know Edmonton's forwards can put up points. Hall in particular has emerged as one of the best offensive wingers in the NHL. But they haven't done anything to prove they have the right mix of players to win. Most of the roster outside of the guys you mention is a mess. The team is awful defensively. They obviously have the capacity to be a very dangerous team but to sit there and talk about hoisting the Cup in 3 years, come on. Pittsburgh got a bit lucky to lift the Cup and they don't look like they're going to do it again any time soon.
Edmonton has gone up in point % the last 3 years, they are getting close. Edmonton will take a huge jump in the next 2 years. As long as management doesnt screw it up they will be a cup contender for a while very soon.

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06-24-2013, 04:42 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
At age 19, Nail Yakupov put up .65 points per game. As a 19 year old, Steven Stamkos put up .58.

At age 21, Taylor Hall is better than a point per game player.

Nugent-Hopkins puts up 52 points in 62 games as an 18 year old before having a hiccup in a shortened season this year.

Those are the guys you build around. Then you get into their secondary guys, most of whom are better prospects than anyone we've got, too. They need to build around them, but Buffalo doesn't get anywhere close to guys of Edmonton's talent as long as we keep perpetually "retooling."
What secondary guys does Edmonton have that are better then anyone we've got? Besides there 1st overall picks there prospects aren't better then ours.

By the time Edmonton can compete there 1st overall picks will be getting paid $$$ anyway. Edmonton is the worst example to use because they still are terrible even with all their 1st overall picks. They have **** goaltending and one good young defenseman.

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06-24-2013, 04:46 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
This is the kind of thing Edmonton fans are putting in the bank to cash in on three years from now when they're hoisting the cup.
Nope. I don't think that team will be a dynasty like many say will happen. I don't think there team is built correctly to even survive the playoffs physically. I'll eat my words if they do win multiple cups, but until they I don't want to go through 10 years without the playoffs. I don't understand how anyone could possibly want that....? Makes absolutely no sense to me.

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06-24-2013, 04:50 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Nope. I don't think that team will be a dynasty like many say will happen. I don't think there team is built correctly to even survive the playoffs physically. I'll eat my words if they do win multiple cups, but until they I don't want to go through 10 years without the playoffs. I don't understand how anyone could possibly want that....? Makes absolutely no sense to me.
if it means winning a cup?

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06-24-2013, 04:54 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Afinogretzky View Post
if it means winning a cup?
Can you guarantee that? No...So no I don't want to go that way.

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06-24-2013, 04:55 PM
  #87
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Keeping Vanek and Miller makes Buffalo the Calgary of the East(Iginla and Kipprusoff). They finally realized it wasn't enough but many think it was too late.

Btw, saying Crosby and Malkin are "once in a generation" players is illogical. Two of them during the same generation exist and on the same team even. High end picks don't need to be MVP players but they do need to be better than what Buffalo has or you are just following Calgary path.

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06-24-2013, 04:59 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afinogretzky View Post
if it means winning a cup?
Me personally? No. If you said "10 years of not making the playoffs for 1 guaranteed Cup win", I'd prefer a team that is consistently very good with no guarantees. The latter will give you several memorable playoff runs/series and something to watch every April/May.

These kinds of hypotheticals are kinda silly though because nothing works out like that. But yeah, to me sustained excellence should always be the goal because every year you can believe they're playing for something all through the reg season. When the playoffs hit, you really believe they can win it all, and each series they advance is great entertainment. The deep Sabres playoff runs of my lifetime aren't marred by the fact they didn't win it all. It was great entertainment.

A Cup win would be amazing but ultimately it's not like it's my achievement. I may be nerded out on hockey but at the end of the day it's about entertainment and rooting for something worth rooting for. If your team is consistently in a good position for the playoffs you have a good shot at winning at least one Cup.

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06-24-2013, 05:13 PM
  #89
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Hopefully competing for a playoff spot next season.

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06-24-2013, 05:29 PM
  #90
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Do they qualify Adam this summer?
I assume Regier and his risk aversion will do so. Crawford and Schiestel though... we'll see. Adam may wind up as sweetner of sorts, chaff in a bigger deal.

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06-24-2013, 05:30 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
Me personally? No. If you said "10 years of not making the playoffs for 1 guaranteed Cup win", I'd prefer a team that is consistently very good with no guarantees. The latter will give you several memorable playoff runs/series and something to watch every April/May.

These kinds of hypotheticals are kinda silly though because nothing works out like that. But yeah, to me sustained excellence should always be the goal because every year you can believe they're playing for something all through the reg season. When the playoffs hit, you really believe they can win it all, and each series they advance is great entertainment. The deep Sabres playoff runs of my lifetime aren't marred by the fact they didn't win it all. It was great entertainment.

A Cup win would be amazing but ultimately it's not like it's my achievement. I may be nerded out on hockey but at the end of the day it's about entertainment and rooting for something worth rooting for. If your team is consistently in a good position for the playoffs you have a good shot at winning at least one Cup.
for hypotheticals sake though, you really believe all that? hockey is about entertainment and all that ****? i'm from a different mold then, because "no goal" and the carolina game 7 ripped out my soul to the point where i didn't know left from right.

and you must be either young, or not from buffalo, because every person i know would trade those 4 super bowl appearances for 1 title. no one wants to root for a loser team, and even though they provided entertainment for an extended period of time, winning the last game of the season is really all that matters.

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06-24-2013, 05:32 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by enrothorne View Post
Keeping Vanek and Miller makes Buffalo the Calgary of the East(Iginla and Kipprusoff). They finally realized it wasn't enough but many think it was too late.

Btw, saying Crosby and Malkin are "once in a generation" players is illogical. Two of them during the same generation exist and on the same team even. High end picks don't need to be MVP players but they do need to be better than what Buffalo has or you are just following Calgary path.
well said. in a round-about way, keeping miller and vanek ensures we're stuck in this mediocre middle ground for a longer period of time.

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06-24-2013, 06:05 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afinogretzky View Post
for hypotheticals sake though, you really believe all that? hockey is about entertainment and all that ****? i'm from a different mold then, because "no goal" and the carolina game 7 ripped out my soul to the point where i didn't know left from right.

and you must be either young, or not from buffalo, because every person i know would trade those 4 super bowl appearances for 1 title. no one wants to root for a loser team, and even though they provided entertainment for an extended period of time, winning the last game of the season is really all that matters.
Rooting for a loser team == rooting for a team that doesn't make the playoffs for 10 years.

What I said has nothing to do with how I feel when the Sabres lose, e.g. No Goal. It's just a rational acceptance that 11 years of highly competitive playoff hockey with deep runs and the realistic chance of a Cup win is far superior to 10 horrible years and 1 year of a guaranteed Cup win.

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06-24-2013, 06:51 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
Rooting for a loser team == rooting for a team that doesn't make the playoffs for 10 years.

What I said has nothing to do with how I feel when the Sabres lose, e.g. No Goal. It's just a rational acceptance that 11 years of highly competitive playoff hockey with deep runs and the realistic chance of a Cup win is far superior to 10 horrible years and 1 year of a guaranteed Cup win.
Ah, see that's the thing. I think we're presuming no realistic chance for a cup. That's the point of the hypothetical. You could theoretically win 10 cups otherwise.

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06-24-2013, 08:22 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by LegomyLeggio View Post
Like how Crosby and Malkin were set back after the Pens were so bad their rookie season that they drafted Staal 2nd overall?

I think that losing culture stuff is overrated.
One losing season in their rookie year is a losing culture? Thats an incredibly lame counter.


I'm still utterly amazed anyone still thinks teams intentionally set out to suck bad enough to draft high for several years in a row. They don't. Its due to one of two things; Crappy ownership/crappy management or the team is financially strapped. Sometimes both are in play. None of those teams really get out of that rut unless something changes as was the case with both the Pens and Hawks. Plus their good fortune to win draft lotteries to get one of the studs on their teams.


You know what happens when things like crappy owners/management or a teams financial situation doesn't change? Those teams continues to pick high and they continues to lose.

As is the case with the follow teams;

Columbus
*1 playoff appearance in 12 years of existence.
*11 top ten picks
*5 of them were in the top 5.

Florida
*2 playoff appearances in the last 13 years
*9 top 10 picks
* 5 of those picks were in the top 5

WPG/ATL franchise
* 2 playoffs appearances in 13 years
*10 top 10 picks
*5 of those picks in the top 5

NY Isles
*5 playoff appearances in 13 years
*8 top 10 picks
*6 of thsoe picks in the top 5


Yet none of these teams are anywhere near being Cup contenders nor will they be any time soon and they are losing cultures. There are other teams with not quite as drastic a run of sucking that have picked high a few times and have gone no where as well. But based on the arguments of some on here these teams should be dynasties by now.

The reality is the Pens and Hawks situations were basically lucky flukes and situations that broke perfectly for each franchises. They're not repeatable scenarios. The sooner posters realize this the sooner they will stop clinging to a fantasy.

EDIT: Sorry for the rant its not directed at you specifically. I just used your post as a jumping off point.


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06-24-2013, 08:34 PM
  #96
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I don't even understand the purpose of this thread... we ARE in full rebuild. just accept it.
Yup - ever since the Gaustad trade.

Boy, Regier and Black must be absolutely elated with how their disclaimers are working.

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06-24-2013, 08:37 PM
  #97
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Building a long term contender while being a playoff contender has to be the number one priority. Regier will have plenty of young and inexperienced hockey players with good potential. They need to be bred in an ideal environment that consists of veteran role players. These guys don't have to be the cream of the crop offensively. A top 4 defenseman, a third line center, and a top 9 winger.

The rebuild started two trade deadlines back. The playoffs should be the goal this year.

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06-24-2013, 08:38 PM
  #98
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Yup - ever since the Gaustad trade.

Boy, Regier and Black must be absolutely elated with how their disclaimers are working.
So how would you describe whats been taking place since the deadline Goose was traded?

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06-24-2013, 08:51 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubi Doo View Post
Building a long term contender while being a playoff contender has to be the number one priority. Regier will have plenty of young and inexperienced hockey players with good potential. They need to be bred in an ideal environment that consists of veteran role players. These guys don't have to be the cream of the crop offensively. A top 4 defenseman, a third line center, and a top 9 winger.

The rebuild started two trade deadlines back. The playoffs should be the goal this year.
You seriously think THIS team should be competing for a playoff spot?! Looney tunes.

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06-24-2013, 09:00 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
At age 19, Nail Yakupov put up .65 points per game. As a 19 year old, Steven Stamkos put up .58.

At age 21, Taylor Hall is better than a point per game player.

Nugent-Hopkins puts up 52 points in 62 games as an 18 year old before having a hiccup in a shortened season this year.

Those are the guys you build around. Then you get into their secondary guys, most of whom are better prospects than anyone we've got, too. They need to build around them, but Buffalo doesn't get anywhere close to guys of Edmonton's talent as long as we keep perpetually "retooling."
Actually they're not.

What team is winning Cups with the amount of one dimensional offensive players the Oilers have? No one. Particularly recklessly aggressive offensive wingers like Hall and Yakupov?

Between the two teams playing right now there is exactly ONE player sorta like that on either team, Pat Kane, but he is more responsible defensively than either Oiler. The rest of the top players are all two way dynamos. Its the nature of the game and the playoffs in particular to have success you need high end players like that. The last 3 Cup winners (and the winner this year) had fantastic d-corps and a strong group of two way forwards. The Oilers are no where near having that type of a collection of players on their roster. Who are the defensive studs? How about the two way centers? or even two way forwards? Eberle?


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