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2013-14 Flyers Overhaul Part II

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Old
06-24-2013, 07:15 PM
  #626
FLYERSFAN18
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Maybe Toronto just had more to offer for Bernier. We don't have a backup goalie to give them and we definitely don't have 500K in cap space to give them either. Read plus 2nd might not have been enough for them. Also Read is a UFA after this season who will likely be looking for a lofty pay day. Frattin on the other hand is still a RFA. Its really not that hard to understand why Bernier isn't a Flyer today. Giving up #11 for Bernier would have been rediculous

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06-24-2013, 07:15 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Forgetting about raffl
I am reading great things about him, I hope he does push and do well. He has a nice skill set.

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06-24-2013, 08:46 PM
  #628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
Giving up #11 for Bernier would have been rediculous
Not really. Bernier, in fact, was an 11th overall selection and has been groomed for over six years. If, as an organization, one truly believes he is the real deal #1 you've needed, and Bryz needs to be bought out for various reasons (recapture, cap hit, etc), and your team is needing some serious retooling: Nothing wrong with sacrificing the 1st round pick.

Pros:
Possible true #1 (if the team buys into that)
Shave off six years of grooming him
Eliminate a major cap fubar

Cons:
Loss of #11 pick (and that is ALL it is at this point-- the pick has a gamble range of bust to superstar)

Keep in mind: There are ways to trade back into the 1st round.

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06-24-2013, 09:03 PM
  #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
Not really. Bernier, in fact, was an 11th overall selection and has been groomed for over six years. If, as an organization, one truly believes he is the real deal #1 you've needed, and Bryz needs to be bought out for various reasons (recapture, cap hit, etc), and your team is needing some serious retooling: Nothing wrong with sacrificing the 1st round pick.

Pros:
Possible true #1 (if the team buys into that)
Shave off six years of grooming him
Eliminate a major cap fubar

Cons:
Loss of #11 pick (and that is ALL it is at this point-- the pick has a gamble range of bust to superstar)

Keep in mind: There are ways to trade back into the 1st round.
Luckily the team didnt think he was worth it. I like Bernier but in a draft where we can pick up a great player in a deep draft its smart to keep it. I dont (personally) see Bernier being THAT much more proven than Mason. And what the Leafs gave up, I think they would agree that he wasnt worth that kind of first.

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06-24-2013, 09:45 PM
  #630
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I know nothing of this Michael Raffl fellow, anyone want to fill me in on him?

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06-24-2013, 10:15 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by RoDu View Post
I know nothing of this Michael Raffl fellow, anyone want to fill me in on him?
to me he sounds like Mika Pyorala v2.0

lets hope not

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06-24-2013, 10:35 PM
  #632
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I know nothing of this Michael Raffl fellow, anyone want to fill me in on him?
Austrian player who played in the 2nd division Swedish league. Has speed and great two way play. Has a good shot but not great (for example someone here who watched him claimed he was able to steal the puck a ton of times while on the pk but couldn't finish). That being said he is more of a playmaker anyway and played on a line with Vanek for team Austria. Was one of Austrias best players against Russia flying around the ice and making great passes where players not named Vanek couldn't finish. Don't know how much of his offense play will translate but Prior said the team thinks he is NHL ready.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
to me he sounds like Mika Pyorala v2.0

lets hope not
Other than European and can play defensively they aren't much the same at all (Raffl is a better defensive player anyway). Raffl is pretty damn fast and has great playmaking skills. Don't think he will score much though. Also Pyorala played center and wing. Raffl is just a winger.

Like I said in the other thread. Based off of open spots, and the style of play Raffl plays, I think he competes hard for a spot and either makes it or just misses. He is one that would work in Lavy's system.


If he doesn't oh we'll. Took and chance and it didn't work.

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06-24-2013, 10:50 PM
  #633
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Is it pronounced like Raffle?

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Old
06-24-2013, 11:06 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Forgetting about raffl
Right. I think he'd be solid in a bottom-6 role, actually, but again I'd like for Couturier to play with some talent and not Rinaldo, Raffl or Talbot. Not that I don't think they have offensive potential but I'd rather have Couturier with some players who can regularly capitalize on chances. He's good defensively though, so that's a bonus.

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06-25-2013, 04:22 AM
  #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
Not really. Bernier, in fact, was an 11th overall selection and has been groomed for over six years. If, as an organization, one truly believes he is the real deal #1 you've needed, and Bryz needs to be bought out for various reasons (recapture, cap hit, etc), and your team is needing some serious retooling: Nothing wrong with sacrificing the 1st round pick.

Pros:
Possible true #1 (if the team buys into that)
Shave off six years of grooming him
Eliminate a major cap fubar

Cons:
Loss of #11 pick (and that is ALL it is at this point-- the pick has a gamble range of bust to superstar)

Keep in mind: There are ways to trade back into the 1st round.

That would not have been my first choice, but I would have increased my offer in hopes of getting Bernier.
I would have been willing to trade another prospect with Read to make it a better offer than Toronto's.
Read+Cousins/Heeter/Laughton + a 2nd for Bernier should have been enough.
With the goalie situation solved we could look toward bolstering the defense.

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06-25-2013, 05:15 AM
  #636
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Originally Posted by PhilaFlyers View Post
Is it pronounced like Raffle?
In fact, Austrians pronounce it like "Ruffle".

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06-25-2013, 07:46 AM
  #637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
That would not have been my first choice, but I would have increased my offer in hopes of getting Bernier.
I would have been willing to trade another prospect with Read to make it a better offer than Toronto's.
Read+Cousins/Heeter/Laughton + a 2nd for Bernier should have been enough.
With the goalie situation solved we could look toward bolstering the defense.
Read and Laughton would have been overpayment

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06-25-2013, 07:50 AM
  #638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
That would not have been my first choice, but I would have increased my offer in hopes of getting Bernier.
I would have been willing to trade another prospect with Read to make it a better offer than Toronto's.
Read+Cousins/Heeter/Laughton + a 2nd for Bernier should have been enough.
With the goalie situation solved we could look toward bolstering the defense.
What a ridiculous overpayment that would have been. Laughton still has three years on a EL contract left.

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06-25-2013, 08:00 AM
  #639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
Maybe Toronto just had more to offer for Bernier. We don't have a backup goalie to give them and we definitely don't have 500K in cap space to give them either. Read plus 2nd might not have been enough for them. Also Read is a UFA after this season who will likely be looking for a lofty pay day. Frattin on the other hand is still a RFA. Its really not that hard to understand why Bernier isn't a Flyer today. Giving up #11 for Bernier would have been rediculous
Just tossing this out: what if the offer had been Read + Stolarz + 2014 2nd? A) Fair offer? B) Could it have won over TML's?

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06-25-2013, 08:16 AM
  #640
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Just tossing this out: what if the offer had been Read + Stolarz + 2014 2nd? A) Fair offer? B) Could it have won over TML's?
I honestly think that getting scrivens as their backup goalie and 500k in cap space is what separated our offers. Also read is a UFA after this year and the likely wont be able to keep him at the price he will want/get

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06-25-2013, 09:19 AM
  #641
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My opinion is that the Flyers need 4 things:

1) All around defense man who is able to control the game
2) Sniper to play with Giroux
3) Solid, sometimes sensational goal tending
4) One more big forward, preferably with speed

Here is my line up thoughts
Hartnell - Giroux - xxxxx
Schenn - Couturier - Vora
Simmonds - Laughton - yyyy
Rinaldo - Hall - Gagne
Rosehill

Schenn - Kimmo
zzzz - Strait
Gus - Grossman
Huskins - or some other warm body

Mason - oooo

Obviously, I think Bryz is gone ( too much bad Karma), Talbot, Read and Coburn are traded. Talbot for a 2014 late first rounder, Read, Coburn and our 2014 first for Ryan in September, use Mez and 2013 2nd to move up to the top of the 2nd (Montreal has a pick there) and draft one of the other D man who leaks through. Draft Zadorev with our 2013 pick. Sign Stahlberg as a free agent.

My picks to fill the holes:
yyy = Stahlberg
zzzz = Zadorev
xxxx - Ryan - though I don't think it happens until the fall
ooo = Prayer - I know there is no goalie named Prayer but I think prayer is the only way this is solved.

Just my thoughts - I am sure there are holes in my logic. Thought everyone would like the "prayer" joke - maybe Emery...

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06-25-2013, 10:28 AM
  #642
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Ryan to PHILLY!

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06-25-2013, 10:36 AM
  #643
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
I honestly think that getting scrivens as their backup goalie and 500k in cap space is what separated our offers. Also read is a UFA after this year and the likely wont be able to keep him at the price he will want/get
If Read had already signed a 3 year extension, Bernier would be a Flyer now.

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06-25-2013, 10:43 AM
  #644
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Ryan to PHILLY!
Source?

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Old
06-25-2013, 11:00 AM
  #645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
Maybe Toronto just had more to offer for Bernier. We don't have a backup goalie to give them and we definitely don't have 500K in cap space to give them either. Read plus 2nd might not have been enough for them. Also Read is a UFA after this season who will likely be looking for a lofty pay day. Frattin on the other hand is still a RFA. Its really not that hard to understand why Bernier isn't a Flyer today. Giving up #11 for Bernier would have been rediculous
I mentioned it before and probably the most likely reason the deal wasnt done. If LA could of had control over Read beyond next season they might have pulled the trigger. They were not going to deal a impending UFA after next season for a young goalie straight up.
i would still look for Read to get dealt this summer.

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06-25-2013, 11:41 AM
  #646
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I mentioned it before and probably the most likely reason the deal wasnt done. If LA could of had control over Read beyond next season they might have pulled the trigger. They were not going to deal a impending UFA after next season for a young goalie straight up.
i would still look for Read to get dealt this summer.
I agree that him being a UFA after this year is probably the reason he isn't a King right now. It will hurt to see Read go if we trade him. He is a very valuable guy to have on the team. If he could be signed for 3.5 a year I would love to keep him. But I think on the open market someone might be crazy enough to give him 4.5

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06-25-2013, 11:51 AM
  #647
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
I agree that him being a UFA after this year is probably the reason he isn't a King right now. It will hurt to see Read go if we trade him. He is a very valuable guy to have on the team. If he could be signed for 3.5 a year I would love to keep him. But I think on the open market someone might be crazy enough to give him 4.5
next summer they will have to resign Giroux,Couturier,Read and Schenn. plus they will need to find another defenseman if Timonen retires and they let Mez walk if they dont trade him this summer.
So I really cant see how they can keep Read. Unless you want to let a top 6 forward go in a salary dump deal as well

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06-25-2013, 12:05 PM
  #648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
next summer they will have to resign Giroux,Couturier,Read and Schenn. plus they will need to find another defenseman if Timonen retires and they let Mez walk if they dont trade him this summer.
So I really cant see how they can keep Read. Unless you want to let a top 6 forward go in a salary dump deal as well
They can resign him if they use Prongers LTIR. Say he gets 4 million your lineup could look like this next year.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.750m) / Claude Giroux ($7.500m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Braydon Schenn ($3.000m) / Sean Couturier ($2.750m) / Wayne Simmonds ($3.975m)
Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Scott Laughton ($1.107m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.750m)
Michael Raffl ($0.793m) / Nick Cousins ($0.894m) / Jay Rosehill ($0.675m)
Matt Read ($4.000m)
DEFENSEMEN
Mark Streit ($5.250m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m) / Braydon Coburn ($4.500m)
Top Pairing Defender ($5.000m) / Erik Gustafsson ($1.250m)
Mark Alt ($0.900m)
Chris Pronger ($4.941m)
GOALTENDERS
Steve Mason ($3.000m)
Backup Goalie ($0.900m)
OTHER
Buyout: Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
Buyout: Ilya Bryzgalov ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,317,689; BONUSES: $292,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster):- $4,725,189

I dont know why the lines came out that way, but just look at the players. In all honesty we actually need to try to trade Coburn and Grossmann for some Cheaper alternatives. We cant keep paying our 4th defenseman 4.5 and our 5th defenseman 3.5. I like both of them but if they could be traded for some younger guys with less expensive contracts it should be an option.

I put Alt and Cousins in there because that is likely what guys in that position will be paid, not because I think that is who should be in those positions

Edit: I am not arguing to keep Read, I am just pointing out that it could be done. Also it is starting to annoy me to see people say we can keep him and then say we should sign some forward for 4.5 million a year

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06-25-2013, 12:31 PM
  #649
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Trade Meszaros and LTIR Pronger and we have 15 million in cap space


CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.750m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Wayne Simmonds ($3.975m)
Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Scott Laughton ($1.107m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.750m)
Jay Rosehill ($0.675m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.000m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Mark Streit ($5.250m) / Braydon Coburn ($4.500m)
Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m) / Bruno Gervais ($0.825m)
GOALTENDERS
Steve Mason ($1.500m)
OTHER
Buyout: Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
Buyout: Chris Pronger ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $51,849,594; BONUSES: $2,800,000
CAP SPACE (18-man roster): $15,250,406

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06-25-2013, 12:45 PM
  #650
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FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.750m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
xxx / Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Wayne Simmonds ($3.975m)
xxx / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Scott Laughton ($1.107m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.750m)
Jay Rosehill ($0.675m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.000m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Mark Streit ($5.250m) / Braydon Coburn ($4.500m)
Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m) / xxx
Bruno Gervais ($0.825m)

GOALTENDERS
xxx
Steve Mason ($1.500m)

OTHER
Buyout: Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
LTIR: Chris Pronger ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $51,849,594; BONUSES: $2,800,000
CAP SPACE (18-man roster): $15,250,406

So, resign Gustafsson fills the #6 defender hole (and he's a good one at that) aaaand then we've got a few spots to be filled be forwards and of course a goaltender. Could fill forward spots thru UFA but I'd like the G extension done first so Holmgren can also plan for next year with how he build the team again. McGinn and Raffl and maye Akeson could see NHL time but I'd prefer them to start in the AHL ...

I try to avoid looking at Pronger as just free space, as the cap recapture penalty could haunt us...

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