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Going into full rebuild is bad idea

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Old
06-24-2013, 09:00 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
One losing season in their rookie year is a losing culture? Thats an incredibly lame counter.


I'm still utterly amazed anyone still thinks teams intentionally set out to suck bad enough to draft high for several years in a row. They don't. Its due to one of two things; Crappy ownership/crappy management or the team is financially strapped. Sometimes both are in play. None of those teams really get out of that rut unless something changes as was the case with both the Pens and Hawks. Plus their good fortune to win draft lotteries to get one of the studs on their teams.


You know what happens when things like crappy owners/management or a teams financial situation doesn't change? Those teams continues to pick high and they continues to lose.

As is the case with the follow teams;

Columbus
*1 playoff appearance in 12 years of existence.
*11 top ten picks
*5 of them were in the top 5.

Florida
*2 playoff appearances in the last 13 years
*9 top 10 picks
* 5 of those picks were in the top 5

WPG/ATL franchise
* 2 playoffs appearances in 13 years
*10 top 10 picks
*5 of those picks in the top 5

NY Isles
*5 playoff appearances in 13 years
*8 top 10 picks
*6 of thsoe picks in the top 5


Yet none of these teams are anywhere near being Cup contenders nor will they be any time soon and they are losing cultures. There are other teams with not quite as drastic a run of sucking that have picked high a few times and have gone no where as well. But based on the arguments of some on here these teams should be dynasties by now.

The reality is the Pens and Hawks situations were basically lucky flukes and situations that broke perfectly for each franchises. They're not repeatable scenarios. The sooner posters realize this the sooner they will stop clinging to a fantasy.

EDIT: Sorry for the rant its not directed at you specifically. I just used your post as a jumping off point.
Thanks for the informative post. It really says what I am getting at. I would rather look to trade for some quality guys, look into buy out guys like Briere and LeCavalier, and maybe sign a higher end FA.

Look at what Philly does. When they have down seasons, they don't sit there and lose for years to get top players. They change up the team through FA and the trade market. I would rather go that route.

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06-24-2013, 09:07 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
One losing season in their rookie year is a losing culture? Thats an incredibly lame counter.


I'm still utterly amazed anyone still thinks teams intentionally set out to suck bad enough to draft high for several years in a row. They don't. Its due to one of two things; Crappy ownership/crappy management or the team is financially strapped. Sometimes both are in play. None of those teams really get out of that rut unless something changes as was the case with both the Pens and Hawks. Plus their good fortune to win draft lotteries to get one of the studs on their teams.


You know what happens when things like crappy owners/management or a teams financial situation doesn't change? Those teams continues to pick high and they continues to lose.

As is the case with the follow teams;

Columbus
*1 playoff appearance in 12 years of existence.
*11 top ten picks
*5 of them were in the top 5.

Florida
*2 playoff appearances in the last 13 years
*9 top 10 picks
* 5 of those picks were in the top 5

WPG/ATL franchise
* 2 playoffs appearances in 13 years
*10 top 10 picks
*5 of those picks in the top 5

NY Isles
*5 playoff appearances in 13 years
*8 top 10 picks
*6 of thsoe picks in the top 5


Yet none of these teams are anywhere near being Cup contenders nor will they be any time soon and they are losing cultures. There are other teams with not quite as drastic a run of sucking that have picked high a few times and have gone no where as well. But based on the arguments of some on here these teams should be dynasties by now.

The reality is the Pens and Hawks situations were basically lucky flukes and situations that broke perfectly for each franchises. They're not repeatable scenarios. The sooner posters realize this the sooner they will stop clinging to a fantasy.

EDIT: Sorry for the rant its not directed at you specifically. I just used your post as a jumping off point.
Completely agree and so well reasoned. Even if missing the playoffs for 10 straight years led to playoff success I don't want to watch my team suck for 10 straight years...It never guarantees a cup.

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06-24-2013, 09:13 PM
  #103
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You seriously think THIS team should be competing for a playoff spot?! Looney tunes.
THIS team. Yes. We're talking about the NHL playoffs, bud. This isn't the MLB or the NFL. I don't think anyone expected Buffalo to win the division in 2010. That obviously won't happen this year, But the point still stands.


After this draft we will have an abundance of young talent with strong potential. After this draft they will have selected 4 first round players. The average pick of those four players is 15th. That's not including the picks in the second round. Sure we never had a top 3 pick, but how many teams have had four top 20 picks including 3 in the top 15 and one in the top 10 in a 2 year time frame?

A majority of the veterans have already been traded for futures. It's time to bring in more veterans. Ott was a great addition. This years team can have a good mixture of heart and work ethic.

A playoff spot should be the goal. A team that works hard every night could sneak into the 8th spot. It's happen before.


Last edited by Dubi Doo: 06-24-2013 at 09:24 PM.
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06-24-2013, 09:14 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by BloFan4Life View Post
Thanks for the informative post. It really says what I am getting at. I would rather look to trade for some quality guys, look into buy out guys like Briere and LeCavalier, and maybe sign a higher end FA.

Look at what Philly does. When they have down seasons, they don't sit there and lose for years to get top players. They change up the team through FA and the trade market. I would rather go that route.
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Completely agree and so well reasoned. Even if missing the playoffs for 10 straight years led to playoff success I don't want to watch my team suck for 10 straight years...It never guarantees a cup.
Thanks guys but I do disagree with you about grabbing scraps to just get into the playoffs.

What Philly did after 06-07 was make some smart trades for player's rights (Timmonen, Hartnell) and smart UFA singings (Briere). I'm all for that but since then I will pass on some of the daft moves Homer has made.

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06-25-2013, 12:38 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by BloFan4Life View Post
I just don't think its the right time to go into this "rebuild." To me, we are not in position to get high quality young stars and when that happens, you just end up in bigger trouble. You start to just struggle year after year, and this place becomes even more less desirable.

IMO, there are enough quality offensive players that will be up for the taking. Guys are getting bought out and guys like Cam are requesting trades. I think we could build a very nice team that makes the playoffs this season and is exciting.

A young team doesn't necessary mean an exciting team with loads of potential. It could easily mean just a crap team that should be in the AHL. For every Pitt and Chicago, who actually were in position to acquire top level talent, there are teams like Florida, Edmonton and Atlanta/Winn that just don't take that jump.
I don't agree. There will not be a lot of top line talent available via FA most years, and even if there is Buffalo most likely will not be their city of choice to move to. The second and third level of FA talent will just keep the Sabres average, battling for the 8th and final playoff spot and drafting 10-14 every year. That will keep them just like they have been during most of Darcy Regier's tenure. Just keep the full blown rebuild going, hope the Sabres acquire some eite talent that will enable them to be a contender and not a pretender.

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06-25-2013, 12:43 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Actually they're not.

What team is winning Cups with the amount of one dimensional offensive players the Oilers have? No one. Particularly recklessly aggressive offensive wingers like Hall and Yakupov?

Between the two teams playing right now there is exactly ONE player sorta like that on either team, Pat Kane, but he is more responsible defensively than either Oiler. The rest of the top players are all two way dynamos. Its the nature of the game and the playoffs in particular to have success you need high end players like that. The last 3 Cup winners (and the winner this year) had fantastic d-corps and a strong group of two way forwards. The Oilers are no where near having that type of a collection of players on their roster. Who are the defensive studs? How about the two way centers? or even two way forwards? Eberle?
I think at least Hall is a player to build around because he's clearly the best of the wingers and will probably remain so, but we'll see what Yakupov has to say about th at. There's room in a core to build around an offensive winger as good as him. I do question how good he'll ever become defensively because I just don't see it in his playing style. I actually think it's more likely Yakupov becomes the better defensive player.

A lot hinges on whether or not RNH can become a cerebral, sound defensive player because their top 6 as currently (and likely to remain) constructed is not good defensively. I do think Justin Schultz is a legitimate piece to build around.

Anyhow, I doubt anyone in their new division is shaking in their boots. Maybe the goalies in the division are worried about 6-4 games screwing up their Vezina campaigns.

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06-25-2013, 01:03 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by enrothorne View Post
Keeping Vanek and Miller makes Buffalo the Calgary of the East(Iginla and Kipprusoff). They finally realized it wasn't enough but many think it was too late.

Btw, saying Crosby and Malkin are "once in a generation" players is illogical. Two of them during the same generation exist and on the same team even. High end picks don't need to be MVP players but they do need to be better than what Buffalo has or you are just following Calgary path.
Yes Crosby and Malkin are once in a generation. The only other duos that caliber we have had similar to them in the last 20-25 years were Fedorov-Yzerman, Sakic-Forsberg ,Gretzky-Messier and Lemieux-Jagr.Extremely rare to find 100 point scorers on the same team.

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06-25-2013, 01:45 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by BloFan4Life View Post
I wouldn't say LA was packed with top end talent. Kopitar is obviously great and Quick came up clutch, but I wouldn't call them stacked.
.
they were (are) pretty stacked. Richards and Carter were first round picks. Brown went in the first half of the first round. Doughty? Top 5.

You can enjoy watching a team without high end, top caliber players...but you won't win anything significant.

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06-25-2013, 02:05 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
One losing season in their rookie year is a losing culture? Thats an incredibly lame counter.


I'm still utterly amazed anyone still thinks teams intentionally set out to suck bad enough to draft high for several years in a row. They don't. Its due to one of two things; Crappy ownership/crappy management or the team is financially strapped. Sometimes both are in play. None of those teams really get out of that rut unless something changes as was the case with both the Pens and Hawks. Plus their good fortune to win draft lotteries to get one of the studs on their teams.


You know what happens when things like crappy owners/management or a teams financial situation doesn't change? Those teams continues to pick high and they continues to lose.

As is the case with the follow teams;

Columbus
*1 playoff appearance in 12 years of existence.
*11 top ten picks
*5 of them were in the top 5.

Florida
*2 playoff appearances in the last 13 years
*9 top 10 picks
* 5 of those picks were in the top 5

WPG/ATL franchise
* 2 playoffs appearances in 13 years
*10 top 10 picks
*5 of those picks in the top 5

NY Isles
*5 playoff appearances in 13 years
*8 top 10 picks
*6 of thsoe picks in the top 5


Yet none of these teams are anywhere near being Cup contenders nor will they be any time soon and they are losing cultures. There are other teams with not quite as drastic a run of sucking that have picked high a few times and have gone no where as well. But based on the arguments of some on here these teams should be dynasties by now.

The reality is the Pens and Hawks situations were basically lucky flukes and situations that broke perfectly for each franchises. They're not repeatable scenarios. The sooner posters realize this the sooner they will stop clinging to a fantasy.

EDIT: Sorry for the rant its not directed at you specifically. I just used your post as a jumping off point.
It comes down to ownership/Management. You draft elite players and then they put a team around those players. Any idiot can draft a Mackinnon, but how do you build around him and will ownership allow you to build around him?

I am anxious to see what happens with Islanders. A cheap organization with a star, will they put enough around him to win consistently. If Pegula were in buffalo in 2005 the Sabres would have been a great team for at least 5-6 years instead of 2 just because of ownership. the dismantle would never happen. Its also possible the Sbares would be able to sign guys like Parise, Suter, and Richards because the whole organization would be viewed differently. Funny how that works.

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Old
06-25-2013, 02:26 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
they were (are) pretty stacked. Richards and Carter were first round picks. Brown went in the first half of the first round. Doughty? Top 5.

You can enjoy watching a team without high end, top caliber players...but you won't win anything significant.
Tell that to the Wings or the Patriots. Don't speak in absolutes, they are never correct.

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06-25-2013, 02:57 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Tell that to the Wings or the Patriots. Don't speak in absolutes, they are never correct.
I don't understand, are you saying the Wings and the Patriots don't have high-calibre players?

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06-25-2013, 03:23 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Dubi Doo View Post
THIS team. Yes. We're talking about the NHL playoffs, bud. This isn't the MLB or the NFL. I don't think anyone expected Buffalo to win the division in 2010. That obviously won't happen this year, But the point still stands.


After this draft we will have an abundance of young talent with strong potential. After this draft they will have selected 4 first round players. The average pick of those four players is 15th. That's not including the picks in the second round. Sure we never had a top 3 pick, but how many teams have had four top 20 picks including 3 in the top 15 and one in the top 10 in a 2 year time frame?

A majority of the veterans have already been traded for futures. It's time to bring in more veterans. Ott was a great addition. This years team can have a good mixture of heart and work ethic.

A playoff spot should be the goal. A team that works hard every night could sneak into the 8th spot. It's happen before.
So I suppose the Sabres are the only team to have good draft picks. And that nobody else is going to improve. You're being a homer if you think THIS team should be competing for a playoff spot.

And I'm not now, nor have I ever been or ever will be your bud, Sonny Jim.

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06-25-2013, 05:24 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Tell that to the Wings or the Patriots. Don't speak in absolutes, they are never correct.
So are you saying that guys like Steve Yzerman or Nicklas Lidstrom or Henrik Zetterberg or Pavel Datsyuk, or going with the Patriots, Tom Brady aren't/weren't high end, top caliber players?

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06-25-2013, 05:32 AM
  #114
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I don't understand, are you saying the Wings and the Patriots don't have high-calibre players?
Jeez...Sometimes I wonder if anyone has any reading comprehension skills anymore! I was responding to this!

"they were (are) pretty stacked. Richards and Carter were first round picks. Brown went in the first half of the first round. Doughty? Top 5.

You can enjoy watching a team without high end, top caliber players...but you won't win anything significant."

In relation to these players being drafted high or in the 1st round. You obviously NEED star players, but if you have competent management and a well thought out plan and strategy of how you want to build your team you do not have to suck for 10 years and get 4,5,6 top 10 picks to be successful. Detriot Red Wings and New England Patriots are examples of franchises with incredible management, coaching, development systems that teach a pattern of success.

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06-25-2013, 06:46 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Jeez...Sometimes I wonder if anyone has any reading comprehension skills anymore! I was responding to this!

"they were (are) pretty stacked. Richards and Carter were first round picks. Brown went in the first half of the first round. Doughty? Top 5.

You can enjoy watching a team without high end, top caliber players...but you won't win anything significant."

In relation to these players being drafted high or in the 1st round. You obviously NEED star players, but if you have competent management and a well thought out plan and strategy of how you want to build your team you do not have to suck for 10 years and get 4,5,6 top 10 picks to be successful. Detriot Red Wings and New England Patriots are examples of franchises with incredible management, coaching, development systems that teach a pattern of success.
Not only are you so far off from anything close to my point, or even my topic of discussion for that matter, you picked two ****ing awful examples to try to make whatever case you're trying to make. The Wings and Pats? Really?

I will say it again, as you irrelevantly question others' reading comprehension while misusing that term () you need to have high end talent to win, save for one anomaly every decade and a half (arguable).


Edit: and where so you see me even imply, much less state, that you need 4-6 top ten picks while sucking for a decade in order to be successful? I agree competent management would play a hand in avoiding that scenario. Again, look at LA - Carter? Richards? Not their picks.

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06-25-2013, 07:17 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post

In relation to these players being drafted high or in the 1st round. You obviously NEED star players, but if you have competent management and a well thought out plan and strategy of how you want to build your team you do not have to suck for 10 years and get 4,5,6 top 10 picks to be successful. Detriot Red Wings and New England Patriots are examples of franchises with incredible management, coaching, development systems that teach a pattern of success.
Pointing to the Brady's and Datsyuk's taken late in the draft, and calling it "competetent management" is just straight false.

Call it what it is... "luck". If it's competence, then it infers that the rest of the league is incompetent.


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06-25-2013, 07:34 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
One losing season in their rookie year is a losing culture? Thats an incredibly lame counter.


I'm still utterly amazed anyone still thinks teams intentionally set out to suck bad enough to draft high for several years in a row. They don't. Its due to one of two things; Crappy ownership/crappy management or the team is financially strapped. Sometimes both are in play. None of those teams really get out of that rut unless something changes as was the case with both the Pens and Hawks. Plus their good fortune to win draft lotteries to get one of the studs on their teams.


You know what happens when things like crappy owners/management or a teams financial situation doesn't change? Those teams continues to pick high and they continues to lose.

As is the case with the follow teams;

Columbus
*1 playoff appearance in 12 years of existence.
*11 top ten picks
*5 of them were in the top 5.

Florida
*2 playoff appearances in the last 13 years
*9 top 10 picks
* 5 of those picks were in the top 5

WPG/ATL franchise
* 2 playoffs appearances in 13 years
*10 top 10 picks
*5 of those picks in the top 5

NY Isles
*5 playoff appearances in 13 years
*8 top 10 picks
*6 of thsoe picks in the top 5


Yet none of these teams are anywhere near being Cup contenders nor will they be any time soon and they are losing cultures. There are other teams with not quite as drastic a run of sucking that have picked high a few times and have gone no where as well. But based on the arguments of some on here these teams should be dynasties by now.

The reality is the Pens and Hawks situations were basically lucky flukes and situations that broke perfectly for each franchises. They're not repeatable scenarios. The sooner posters realize this the sooner they will stop clinging to a fantasy.

EDIT: Sorry for the rant its not directed at you specifically. I just used your post as a jumping off point.
I think the Oilers bit the bullet and completely gutted the roster on purpose.

I also think that the Isles are in a pretty good spot moving forward even with a crazy owner. I think Garth Snow has gone through learning pains and has the team making some good moves lately.

While I don't think Regier really plans on drafting 1st or 2nd overall three years in a row, I do think he has accepted that Miller & Vanek want out and that means remaking the core of the team.

And with that will likely come a season or two more of bad results on the ice.

The floundering of teams like Columbus and Florida (both of whom might look a lot better in a year or two) had to do with having a bad GM.

Perhaps the Sabres flounder until Regier is replaced....

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06-25-2013, 09:32 AM
  #118
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We'll know this week and into next what the Sabres plan may or may not be. If they acquire any UFA negotiating rights or move for established, quality NHLers using their stable of picks and prospects, they're not rebuilding in the traditional sense. However, I suspect from Regier's comments, that isn't likely. We'll all see soon enough.

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06-25-2013, 09:52 AM
  #119
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We'll know this week and into next what the Sabres plan may or may not be. If they acquire any UFA negotiating rights or move for established, quality NHLers using their stable of picks and prospects, they're not rebuilding in the traditional sense. However, I suspect from Regier's comments, that isn't likely. We'll all see soon enough.
I think they will try to sign UFA maybe acquire some vet players but they won't use their picks or prospects to do it.

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06-25-2013, 10:05 AM
  #120
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I think they will try to sign UFA maybe acquire some vet players but they won't use their picks or prospects to do it.
If they are indeed looking at a quick fix, UFA negotiating rights would be in line with that (someone like Filppula) -- and those are usually draft pick transactions. Similarly, there are teams tight to the cap who would likely prefer a non-paid asset (pick, non-roster prospect) to a current player if they are looking to deal out of their cap squeeze. Those sort of moves will indicate the Sabres mindset.

And if they start doing that, using those high picks as trade chips or signing extensions for their UFA-to-be guys is right in line with the quickie option. Not an advocate for it, just an observation.

Personally, I don't think they go that way, not after the "suffering" commentary. I suspect Regier goes with a more traditional method, deals for max value this summer, signs a couple of transition players, and we see what sort of magic if any Rolston can work with the kids through next year. And then they draft around #5 again.

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06-25-2013, 10:13 AM
  #121
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Fascinating how some fans just want to see our team in the playoffs, whereas others are like, "wake me up when we get to the conference finals."

Analyzing Darcy's offseason comments, I actually think he's morphed into the latter, in that he wants to build a powerhouse from top draft picks. I don't think you're going to see a Bickell signing, or Filppula, or a Vanek trade for Stastny or any other immediate help. It's going to be an intentional struggle, and if the prospects like Armia, Girgs, Grigs, etc are coming along nicely, maybe the 2014 offseason is when we start to add.

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06-25-2013, 10:18 AM
  #122
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Darcy will continue to do the same thing he has done since he traded Gaustad.

Regier's goal will be to make the playoffs without impacting the acquisition of additional draft picks and prospects.

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06-25-2013, 10:21 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Afinogretzky View Post
Fascinating how some fans just want to see our team in the playoffs, whereas others are like, "wake me up when we get to the conference finals."

Analyzing Darcy's offseason comments, I actually think he's morphed into the latter, in that he wants to build a powerhouse from top draft picks. I don't think you're going to see a Bickell signing, or Filppula, or a Vanek trade for Stastny or any other immediate help. It's going to be an intentional struggle, and if the prospects like Armia, Girgs, Grigs, etc are coming along nicely, maybe the 2014 offseason is when we start to add.
I wonder, if they don't do anything to augment the roster in support of the youth movement... does it disprove Joshjull's theory that no team "intentionally loses"?

If they traded Miller and/or Vanek simply for futures... like they did with Pommer.... isn't that viewed as intentionally losing the 13-14 season? (when things are framed that way... i don't like the context of the argument to begin with... just curious how others would view it as presented)

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06-25-2013, 10:26 AM
  #124
Afinogretzky
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I wonder, if they don't do anything to augment the roster in support of the youth movement... does it disprove Joshjull's theory that no team "intentionally loses"?

If they traded Miller and/or Vanek simply for futures... like they did with Pommer.... isn't that viewed as intentionally losing the 13-14 season? (when things are framed that way... i don't like the context of the argument to begin with... just curious how others would view it as presented)
Yes. I think that's the objective. Give kids a ton of playing time, but the roster will be set up for failure. It's not like you're poisoning the water bottles, but you're not giving them a chance from the get-go.

What GM in the history of the world has ever used the word "suffering" to describe the current plan? It's going to happen.

Weirdly, I'm okay/excited for it. I genuinely believe it's the right move long term.

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06-25-2013, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Afinogretzky View Post
Yes. I think that's the objective. Give kids a ton of playing time, but the roster will be set up for failure. It's not like you're poisoning the water bottles, but you're not giving them a chance from the get-go.

What GM in the history of the world has ever used the word "suffering" to describe the current plan? It's going to happen.

Weirdly, I'm okay/excited for it. I genuinely believe it's the right move long term.
We will see. I expect it to be more of the build-for-the-future type moves. If it isn't, it isn't. But suffering isn't moving draft picks for proven assets. Suffering emplies a lot of OJT, learning by trial and error, players growing into positions and situations and that implies mistakes: chances and goals against, missed opportunities, and ultimately losses.

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