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Phaneuf 11th in Norris voting

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06-25-2013, 04:36 AM
  #251
LordRamsay
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lol this arbitrary criteria for who's a #1D (AAA or B or F...) is just too funny.

Ya Phaneuf may not have the greatest 'hockey IQ' but he's a horse. I would have bet money that he was injured in the playoffs from the way he played, but I guess not.

I was real impressed with the way he played in the regular season but I don't know if I'm sold on the idea of giving him another 5-6 year deal at $7M+. He's not going to take a pay cut to come back, that's for sure.

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06-25-2013, 05:26 AM
  #252
ottawa*
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What a lot of people don't realize in this thread is that just because he finished 11th in voting doesn't make him the 11th best according to the media. It's really easy for someone to climb up and down the ranks in Norris voting when they're below 200pts in voting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep View Post
2012-2013 James Norris Memorial Trophy Voting

#PlayerTeamPts1st2nd3rd4th5th
1Subban P.K.MTL1266665635123
2Suter RyanMIN123065543488
3Letang KrisPIT9143137423918
4Beauchemin FrancoisANA29016203339
5Chara ZdenoBOS28910916822
6Keith DuncanCHI28118163627
7Ekman-Larsson OliverPHO7931288
8Weber SheaNSH4901457
9Doughty DrewLA4301275
10Kronwall NiklasDET3302135
11Phaneuf DionTOR2801144
12Yandle KeithPHO2700069
13Markov AndreiMTL2310115
14Pietrangelo AlexSTL2302023
15Byfuglien DustinWPG1300122
16Hamhuis DanVAN900111
17Green MikeWAS600013
18Karlsson ErikOTT500100
 Orpik BrooksPIT500100
20Timonen KimmoPHI500012
21Seidenberg DennisBOS400011
22Girardi DanNYR200002
23Martin PaulPIT100001
 Souray SheldonANA100001
 Visnovsky LubomirNYI100001
For example, if Phaneuf didn't get that 2nd vote he got, he would have finished in 15th place or if he got a couple 1st place votes he would be on par with Shea Weber and above Drew Doughty. A lot of you will hate me and think I'm bashing Phaneuf but I'm really not, I can't help it but to analyze every number (is it because I'm studying Economics or because I have some fetish for math, I don't know), but one thing I immediately noticed is that players who finished 7th (OEL) to 25th (Visnovsky) can climb and drop the ranks based on a few votes they got changing here and there. Places 1-6th tend to be less effected by that because they would move within that small ladder of 6 spots while Phaneuf can instantly drop to 25th if two or three guys give him last place votes or a guy like Visnovsky can jump from 25th to 10-14 if he gets a couple 1st and 2nd place votes and he would be along the likes of Phaneuf, Doughty, Weber, Yandle (and God knows Visnovsky has no place there).

Take what you want from my comment, but him finishing 11th is really not as big of a deal as you guys are making it...is Phaneuf a #1? Yes. Do I wans Phaneuf on the habs? Yes. Is he underrated and scrutinized? Yes. Is he better than all the players below him like Karlsson and Pietrangelo and on par with players near him like Weber and Doughty? No.

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06-25-2013, 06:01 AM
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
What a lot of people don't realize in this thread is that just because he finished 11th in voting doesn't make him the 11th best according to the media. It's really easy for someone to climb up and down the ranks in Norris voting when they're below 200pts in voting.



For example, if Phaneuf didn't get that 2nd vote he got, he would have finished in 15th place or if he got a couple 1st place votes he would be on par with Shea Weber and above Drew Doughty. A lot of you will hate me and think I'm bashing Phaneuf but I'm really not, I can't help it but to analyze every number (is it because I'm studying Economics or because I have some fetish for math, I don't know), but one thing I immediately noticed is that players who finished 7th (OEL) to 25th (Visnovsky) can climb and drop the ranks based on a few votes they got changing here and there. Places 1-6th tend to be less effected by that because they would move within that small ladder of 6 spots while Phaneuf can instantly drop to 25th if two or three guys give him last place votes or a guy like Visnovsky can jump from 25th to 10-14 if he gets a couple 1st and 2nd place votes and he would be along the likes of Phaneuf, Doughty, Weber, Yandle (and God knows Visnovsky has no place there).

Take what you want from my comment, but him finishing 11th is really not as big of a deal as you guys are making it...is Phaneuf a #1? Yes. Do I wans Phaneuf on the habs? Yes. Is he underrated and scrutinized? Yes. Is he better than all the players below him like Karlsson and Pietrangelo and on par with players near him like Weber and Doughty? No.
Seriously, we don't need a ranking to tell us that Phaneuf has been producing top ten offensively despite being up against the top scoring lines. Pietrangelo, on the other hand, plays more sheltered minutes and has a 60% OZone start ( vs Dion's 38%). On the Blues, the Leopold - Shattenkirk pairing go up against the top lines. In Chicago, it's Oduya - Hjaalmarsson, while on the Leafs, it's the Gunnar - Phaneuf pairing.

Phaneuf is a critical player on our team. Someone who can be depended to shut down top lines and yet produce 20 points (ES) from the point. He adds a similar number of points on the PP as well. Seeing that his game is improving, we'll see his offensive production increase while he takes tougher minutes. We just need a shut down defenceman who can move the puck out the zone better than him.

That said, these player-to-player comparisons are usually pretty pointless. It's difficult to compare an elite all-round player like Phaneuf to an elite offensive one like Karlsson. I doubt most would suggest that Phaneuf could control the flow of the game as well as Karlsson. Dion is an above average puck mover, but his shut down game/ offensive ability from the point is outright elite.

We already have a pretty pessimistic fan base so having someone over and lecture us seems ridiculous. Most people who travel are well aware that Torontonians are an extremely pessimistic bunch. I don't think the so-called jingoism over here is even comparable to the other boards.

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06-25-2013, 06:04 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
If he played them together in the playoffs and they excelled why wouldn't he continue to do so next season? I think they'd be fine together and the Leafs would likely have the puck more often than not with those two on the ice anyway. The way I see Franson, he's a hybrid stay-at-home guy anyway, a two-way defenseman, with solid puck skills.



Because the system is flawed. Dion being 11th doesn't mean anything either. He got 0 1st place votes and I'd argue that means more than being 11th anyway

It's pretty irrelevant anyways. Defenceman are more diverse than the city of Toronto. Defensive, offensive and two-way defenseman speak different languages, and even offensive defenceman have numerous dialects. Phaneuf isn't a puck moving defenceman, he is a two-way d-dman with elite shut down ability and the top 10 offensive production is a bonus.

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06-25-2013, 06:41 AM
  #255
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Does it really mean anything? Subban?!? Give me a break.

Letang is 3rd?!? I don't know about anyone else but watching the Bruins-Pens series, I didn't get the sense that Letang is a Norris trophy calibre dman. He's like a forward playing back when he can get back in time. But, his worst attribute is the hockey IQ. He's not a smart hockey player but maybe he just had a bad series. He's a terrific skater and still has a lot of potential but I think Norris Trophy winners should be dmen who show they know how to play the position regardless of how many points/goals they get. Points totals are supposed to be a bonus and show that they can go end to end and be that skilled. But, it shouldn't be the main focus.

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06-25-2013, 06:45 AM
  #256
Daisy Joy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordRamsay View Post
lol this arbitrary criteria for who's a #1D (AAA or B or F...) is just too funny.

Ya Phaneuf may not have the greatest 'hockey IQ' but he's a horse. I would have bet money that he was injured in the playoffs from the way he played, but I guess not.

I was real impressed with the way he played in the regular season but I don't know if I'm sold on the idea of giving him another 5-6 year deal at $7M+. He's not going to take a pay cut to come back, that's for sure.
he most likely was, but didn't want to bring up as an excuse or anything. if it's not an "obvious" injury - ie, you literally don't play/taken to the hospital, most players don't really say anything, but Phaneuf had to have been because i've never saw someone fall down that much without the puck, like he did the last few games of the season.

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06-25-2013, 08:24 AM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisy Joy View Post
he most likely was, but didn't want to bring up as an excuse or anything. if it's not an "obvious" injury - ie, you literally don't play/taken to the hospital, most players don't really say anything, but Phaneuf had to have been because i've never saw someone fall down that much without the puck, like he did the last few games of the season.
The team will know for sure if he was injured or not and whether his play reflected some injury or just that's the way he plays. Something to ponder while the trade rumors are out there.

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06-25-2013, 08:32 AM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisy Joy View Post
he most likely was, but didn't want to bring up as an excuse or anything. if it's not an "obvious" injury - ie, you literally don't play/taken to the hospital, most players don't really say anything, but Phaneuf had to have been because i've never saw someone fall down that much without the puck, like he did the last few games of the season.
While he probably had some minor bumps (like they all do) if he was injured we would have heard about it by now.

Carrying his partner on the top pair all season finally caught up to him.

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06-25-2013, 08:56 AM
  #259
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Looked like Phanuef was playing on both Teams top pair last night.

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06-25-2013, 08:56 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
Or do Gunnar+. No need to have a top 4 on your bottom 6.
I swear, Gunnarsson is the only "top 4" defenseman who can't play more than 10 minutes without a brain fart. After 10 minutes, we might as well be throwing out 2005-era Aki Berg out there again.

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06-25-2013, 09:01 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Lightsol View Post
I swear, Gunnarsson is the only "top 4" defenseman who can't play more than 10 minutes without a brain fart. After 10 minutes, we might as well be throwing out 2005-era Aki Berg out there again.
Aki and Gunnar are very similar, Berg a little more physical.

Aki was a very good bottom pairing guy, one of the best of this era. Gunnar belongs on the bottom pair as well and will do well there.

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06-25-2013, 09:08 AM
  #262
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does anyone know how many votes Toronto media gets?

I remember people complaining on the mainboards that Montreal had 13 and Minnesota only had 8 or something.

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06-25-2013, 11:40 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Jtabo View Post
I love how I got tore a new one when I mentioned him as a good bet to make the Canadian Olympic team. This list would suggest he is a top 7 Canadian d man.
This does not mean anything about his chances to play on the Olympic team. He will not make the team.....skating and not possessing the necessary skills set that they are looking for. Much better offense options and he is not a shut down option....so it is a solid no!

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