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Norris trophy shares

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Old
06-19-2013, 10:08 PM
  #101
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I actually would have said that if Chara would win the Conn Smythe this season (a very legitimate question before the Finals, but I doubt it happens now), that it would be a conversation worth having, with Pronger probably coming out on top.

If Chara ends up with 9 top five finishes, and adds two more top 2 finishes, I think there's a question at least. But that's an awful lot for a 36 year old DMan to accomplish.
If Chara had a more dominant playoff record (with a Conn Smythe probably), I could see him ending up on Stevens/MacInnis level. But that looks unlikely right now

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06-22-2013, 02:21 AM
  #102
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Are you kidding me?!

Lidstrom had more Norris points because there were six more voters. The three preceding Norris winners - to whom he was a runner-up - missed time (Pronger, 51 GP; Blake, 67 GP; MacInnis, 59 GP), leaving him in a race against old Bourque.


EDIT: Four more voters. Whatever. It's 2am and I'm distracted by Top Gun.
Even with the more voters and the guys with less games played for the Norris in 01, it still doesn't make up for the gap in hart voting between Pronger and Lidstrom.

It's kind of ironic to use the injury card for the 01 season when there are many more players involved in the injury card for the 00 Hart.

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Old
06-25-2013, 11:50 AM
  #103
struckbyaparkedcar
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So I know this is a thread about a regular season award, but I'm curious how this playoffs affects Chara's resume in the context of him vs. Pronger/Stevens/Mac, especially considering the about face of going from shutting down Crosby/Malkin to being a combined -6 through games four, five and six...

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Old
06-25-2013, 12:52 PM
  #104
Rhiessan71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
So I know this is a thread about a regular season award, but I'm curious how this playoffs affects Chara's resume in the context of him vs. Pronger/Stevens/Mac, especially considering the about face of going from shutting down Crosby/Malkin to being a combined -6 through games four, five and six...
Chara has a night and day PO resume.

Prior to the '05 Lockout, Chara wasn't as effective as has been since.

Today's players tend to be a little smaller and faster than they were prior to the LO and Chara looks like a god manhandling them around.
Back then, the onus was on size and Chara simply didn't have near the physical advantage he enjoys now.

Look at the scoring leaders and top goal scorers a few years prior to the LO compared to now...

Jagr
Iggy
Lindros
LeClair
Bertuzzi
Guerin
Forsberg
Sundin
Murray
Daze
Thornton
Tkachuk
Shanahan
Stumpel
Allison
Hossa
Nash
Kovalchuk
Heatley
Lang

Look how big Lucic looks today and almost every player on this list is as big or even bigger than he is.

Chara was always fast for his size and he has always been able to use his reach to negate players faster than him. Sometimes he has trouble with very quick players but he learned a long time ago that eventually they have to go to the net.

You just didn't push around guys like Bertuzzi, Shanahan, LeClair, Tkachuk, Lindros, Guerin, Jagr, Sundin and Murray.
Even guys like the gentle giant Daze or Jamie "I skate in molasses" Allison didn't get pushed around.


The onus changed from size to speed (really it changed from anything to speed but that's another conversation) and the tanks that couldn't keep up were weeded out.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 06-25-2013 at 01:00 PM.
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Old
06-25-2013, 01:37 PM
  #105
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Is his playoff resume that much better post-lockout though?

2 series against Carolina/Philly where he was some degree of bad
2 first round exits in spite of decent-to-unoffensive performances (08 and 12)
1 series where I'm too much of a homer to reliably judge (06 Buffalo)
1 Cup where he was in the orbit of the Smythe, albeit probably more distantly than Krejci/Bergeron (captaining his team to a Cup credit, though)
1 roller-coaster run involving arguably the best shutdown performance of his career (Crosby away from Bergeron) into losing a 2-1 series lead and a 2-1 lead late in the deciding game and being a -6 through the last three games of said series

Am I being even-handed enough here? I don't perceive Chara as better than most top tier 90s defenseman (or even some of tier 1.5 (Stevens)), but as a Sabres fan, my opinion isn't exactly unbiased...

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06-25-2013, 01:54 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Is his playoff resume that much better post-lockout though?

2 series against Carolina/Philly where he was some degree of bad
2 first round exits in spite of decent-to-unoffensive performances (08 and 12)
1 series where I'm too much of a homer to reliably judge (06 Buffalo)
1 Cup where he was in the orbit of the Smythe, albeit probably more distantly than Krejci/Bergeron (captaining his team to a Cup credit, though)
1 roller-coaster run involving arguably the best shutdown performance of his career (Crosby away from Bergeron) into losing a 2-1 series lead and a 2-1 lead late in the deciding game and being a -6 through the last three games of said series

Am I being even-handed enough here? I don't perceive Chara as better than most top tier 90s defenseman (or even some of tier 1.5 (Stevens)), but as a Sabres fan, my opinion isn't exactly unbiased...
He's a presence out there to be sure but I for one can't put him in the same league as Pronger or Stevens in the same role.

First off, everyone keeps going on about his supposedly shutting down Crosby/Malkin. He did his part no doubt BUT by far, the lions share of that credit should go to Rask.
Rask was ridiculous in that series and had both Crosby's and Malkin's numbers bigtime!

And I'm sorry but in no world that I know would a guy like Kessel get the better of Pronger or Stevens like he did Chara in round 1.

Chara is a dominant force today for sure but whether it's "all-time" dominant...can't say that I would put it that high.

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06-25-2013, 02:19 PM
  #107
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Right, that's kinda my point. The only run he's had that I'd feel good about putting a cut above his pre-lockout resume is 2011, otherwise it's more good-but-not great to bad.

Hence me trying to contextualize his most recent, pretty-up-and-down-by-his-standards performance, especially in the context of him moving right on up the "Norris trophy shares" board over defensemen I've never really perceived Z as being better than. The consensus seems to be he needs another Norris or a Smythe worthy playoff run, and I'm wondering how close these playoffs were to that, or if they actually hurt his overall reputation, because when he was down, he was doooooown.

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Old
06-25-2014, 10:57 PM
  #108
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Norris trophy voting record

Updated through 2014**

PLAYER FIRST SECOND THIRD FOURTH FIFTH TOTAL
Ray Bourque 5 6 4 4 0 19
Nicklas Lidstrom 7 3 1 1 1 13
Paul Coffey 3 2 1 1 4 11
Bobby Orr 8 0 1 0 0 9
Doug Harvey* 7 1 0 1 0 9
Pierre Pilote 3 3 0 2 0 8
Larry Robinson 2 1 3 1 1 8
Zdeno Chara 1 2 3 1 1 8
Chris Chelios 3 2 1 1 0 7
Denis Potvin 3 2 1 1 0 7
Chris Pronger 1 0 3 1 2 7
Brad Park 0 6 0 1 0 7
Bill Gadsby* 0 3 2 1 1 7
Borje Salming 0 2 2 2 1 7
Scott Stevens 0 2 1 2 2 7
Brian Leetch 2 0 1 1 2 6
Al MacInnis 1 3 2 0 0 6
Jacques Laperriere 1 1 0 2 2 6
Tim Horton 0 2 2 2 0 6
Guy Lapointe 0 1 1 2 2 6
Rod Langway 2 0 1 0 2 5
Rob Blake 1 0 2 1 1 5
Marcel Pronovost 0 1 2 0 2 5
JC Tremblay 0 1 1 1 2 5
Fern Flaman 0 0 3 0 2 5
Red Kelly* 1 2 1 0 0 4
Scott Niedermayer 1 2 0 0 1 4
Doug Wilson 1 0 1 2 0 4
Mark Howe 0 3 0 0 1 4
Shea Weber 0 2 1 1 0 4
Larry Murphy 0 0 2 1 1 4
Phil Housley 0 0 1 0 3 4
Sergei Gonchar 0 0 0 3 1 4
Serge Savard 0 0 0 1 3 4
Tom Johnson 1 0 0 1 1 3
Carl Brewer 0 1 1 1 0 3
Bill White 0 0 3 0 0 3
Pat Stapleton 0 0 1 2 0 3

* Played at least a few peak years before Norris trophy was first awarded in 1954

** Hopefully this is right. This is an update of an update of an update, and hopefully nothing has fallen through the cracks.

- Players in bold moved up in 2014. Note that Keith, despite winning two Norris trophies, isn`t on the list as he doesn`t have any other seasons in the top five (though that`s an arbitrary cut-off, as he was sixth twice).

- This is not intended to be an all-inclusive ranking. Most importantly, this metric does not take into account quality of competition, or performance in the playoffs.

- Chara is now tied for sixth (!) for most seasons as a Norris finalist.

Another way of looking at it:

Norris trophy normalized voting record

PlayerVotes
Ray Bourque 901
Nicklas Lidstrom 897
Bobby Orr 742
Doug Harvey* 626
Chris Chelios 416
Zdeno Chara 400
Paul Coffey 394
Denis Potvin 361
Al MacInnis 345
Pierre Pilote 335
Chris Pronger 289
Brian Leetch 284
Larry Robinson 276
Brad Park 265
Scott Niedermayer 238
Scott Stevens 231
Bill Gadsby* 213
Rob Blake 211
Shea Weber 199
Borje Salming 193
Red Kelly* 192
Rod Langway 185
Duncan Keith 184
Mark Howe 173
Tim Horton 151
Mike Green 143
Jacques Laperriere 139
Sergei Gonchar 113
Marcel Pronovost 107
Doug Wilson 105

* Played at least a few peak years before Norris trophy was first awarded in 1954

- Players in bold moved up in 2014

- This table is the sum of the Norris votes earned in each season, normalized so that 100 points = unanimous vote.

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Old
06-29-2014, 07:20 PM
  #109
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Amazing how high Chara is.

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