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Bryz buyout - Miller to Flyers?

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Old
06-25-2013, 02:20 PM
  #51
Jame
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I guess I see a different dman. A big very physical dman thats a very good shot blocker and a solid defender thats been used against the other teams top guys. But he has a limited offensive game.

I don't see much of Myers in Coburn
excellent skaters, previously used in shut down situations.... failed at it, moved to lesser roles.

Do they go on a pairing together?
Do you split them, and neither one can play the shutdown role?

I don't see Myers/Coburn fitting....

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06-25-2013, 02:22 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I'll tell you that Flynn and Read had nearly identical GPG this year. They are the same level. If that's the type of addition you want to make for the guy that has been the face of your franchise for almost a decade, gross.
So, the same level as Ennis? who had less goals per game than Read
Read .23
Ennis .21
ready, set,... pivot

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06-25-2013, 02:22 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Read > Vanek

You just showed why the numbers you are using don't mean squat. Read is a plug.
I suppose I'll just continue waiting for you to come up with a list of RWers who have 30 ES/SH goals over the past two seasons then.

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06-25-2013, 02:24 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Sabreality View Post
Chris Nichols ‏@Nichols_NHLPool 6m
GM Paul Holmgren says #Flyers will NOT pursue Roberto Luongo. #Canucks
well, there goes one opinion shot down in a few hours

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06-25-2013, 02:26 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I suppose I'll just continue waiting for you to come up with a list of RWers who have 30 ES/SH goals over the past two seasons then.
People need to respect the fact that he's almost at the Vrbata/Burrows/Tlusty level.

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06-25-2013, 02:27 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I'll tell you that Flynn and Read had nearly identical GPG this year. They are the same level. If that's the type of addition you want to make for the guy that has been the face of your franchise for almost a decade, gross.
Read has performed over 150+ games. It's a lot easier to punch above your weight class for 26 games, as Flynn did--and I like Flynn.

And I'm still waiting for those RWers with 30 ES/SH goals over the past two seasons...

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06-25-2013, 02:29 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
well, there goes one opinion shot down in a few hours
Not much of a surprise. They're out of buyouts so they have no recourse if he sucks, and they literally gave up the Vezina winner because they had a goalie locked up for the next eternity.

Miller, OTOH, is probably trying to win his first playoff series since 2007 above all else. He just came off a top-50 contract, and will likely put his team first while negotiating an extension.

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06-25-2013, 02:31 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
Add an ounce of context to your numbers and I'll be impressed, Jame. I asked for an explanation and you offered none save metrics for a shortened season that accounts for roughly a third of the full sample. I'm curious as to whether you actually watched much more than I did.
Admit it... it was funny. You weren't looking for context... you were simply preparing to argue, as you showed, it didn't matter which side you argued from. Indicating that you don't really have an opinion on the matter.

i won't argue over who watch Philly more. Are you asking my opinion on Read (the subjective stuff)?

I think he's a classic hard working, shift to shift, nose for the net, player.

I think he's an above the line forechecker, who can add offensive zone puck control, and cycle his way to the net. He's not a scoring forward, but he will increase his lines scoring/chances.

I think he back checks HARD, and his effort on a shift to shift basis is never in question (unlike a lot of Sabres at the moment).

He plays honest hockey, and has the skill sets that blend across lines. I think he can be a key player, the way Dupuis has been for years in Pitt (dont reference scoring please).

Jochen Hecht, Pascal Dupuis, etc that type of guy. a glue guy... who can be deployed as needed, with the same level of accountability and effort

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06-25-2013, 02:32 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I suppose I'll just continue waiting for you to come up with a list of RWers who have 30 ES/SH goals over the past two seasons then.
Let me get my spreadsheet out...

What kind of amazing stats do you think he gets on this wonderful roster?

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06-25-2013, 02:36 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Read has performed over 150+ games. It's a lot easier to punch above your weight class for 26 games, as Flynn did--and I like Flynn.

And I'm still waiting for those RWers with 30 ES/SH goals over the past two seasons...
If I thought that particular stat was as telling as you do, I might go get you a list. I think Read is a good player. I don't think he's one of the most valuable rw'ers in the game, even if the list of players you're asking for only has 2 names on it.

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06-25-2013, 02:37 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Let me get my spreadsheet out...
Avoiding the question...

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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
What kind of amazing stats do you think he gets on this wonderful roster?
Then moving the goalposts.

I am debating the content of this post.

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06-25-2013, 02:39 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Read has performed over 150+ games. It's a lot easier to punch above your weight class for 26 games, as Flynn did--and I like Flynn.

And I'm still waiting for those RWers with 30 ES/SH goals over the past two seasons...
Read scored a significant number of those goals at center, to be fair.


Regardless, Jiri Hudler, Curtis Glencross, Tomas Fleischmann, Viktor Stalberg, Radim Vrbata, Jiri Tlusty, Alex Burrows, and Michael Ryder are all comparable or better along with the Perrys/Kopitars/etc. Some of those players would be a pipe dream in a Miller swap, others a disappointment.

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06-25-2013, 02:40 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Mogilny 89 View Post
Avoiding the question...



Then moving the goalposts.

I am debating the content of this post.
I'm not sure he gets to set where the goalpost are. Watch the player, you'll understand.

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06-25-2013, 02:41 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Admit it... it was funny.
I never said it wasn't.

Quote:
You weren't looking for context... you were simply preparing to argue, as you showed, it didn't matter which side you argued from. Indicating that you don't really have an opinion on the matter.
I figured the fact I was ignored was sign enough as to which way the wind blew.

Quote:
Stuff about Read
I like the idea of acquiring Read+ for Miller. Quite a bit, even. I just think the ESG argument and comparison to Vanek is disingenuous given his real value as a player.

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06-25-2013, 02:43 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I'm not sure he gets to set where the goalpost are. Watch the player, you'll understand.
He brought up an issue, provided some facts to support it. You claim he's wrong, but bring no facts at all the table. It's obvious to everyone here.

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06-25-2013, 02:44 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by AdamsApple View Post
If I thought that particular stat was as telling as you do, I might go get you a list. I think Read is a good player. I don't think he's one of the most valuable rw'ers in the game, even if the list of players you're asking for only has 2 names on it.
no one said anything to that affect...

here's the thing... sometimes people jump quickly to an opinion. And then when someone disagrees and uses relevant objective fact... and then the conversation breaks down to straw men and parting shots.

The reality is simple. Read is a better hockey player than the casual fan (who takes a cursory glance at stats) seems to be aware of.

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06-25-2013, 02:44 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I'm not sure he gets to set where the goalpost are. Watch the player, you'll understand.
I did. And I came to understand Matt Read is awesome.

"blah blah blah points points points offense offense offense scoring numbers regardless of context."

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06-25-2013, 02:46 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by AdamsApple View Post
If I thought that particular stat was as telling as you do, I might go get you a list. I think Read is a good player. I don't think he's one of the most valuable rw'ers in the game, even if the list of players you're asking for only has 2 names on it.
Oh, are we still operating under the assumption that Miller is going to net us someone who's one of the most valuable players at his position? I thought we were past that.

Anyone will tell you I'm one of the bigger Miller backers around these parts. That said, there doesn't appear to be much of a market for him, and we don't have a ton of leverage because, whether we like it or not, the perception is that Miller won't be back in Buffalo in 2014-15. That's why I'd gladly take a bona fide RW2 who can play good competition, and doesn't need huge PP minutes or offensive-zone starts to produce (in addition to the 2nd round pick I'd want from Philly in this deal).

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06-25-2013, 02:47 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
I like the idea of acquiring Read+ for Miller. Quite a bit, even. I just think the ESG argument and comparison to Vanek is disingenuous given his real value as a player.
Did someone really think I was making a direct Vanek/Read comparison?

You want context... I want to put his goal scoring in context... and then you call it disengenius...

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06-25-2013, 02:48 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Mogilny 89 View Post
He brought up an issue, provided some facts to support it. You claim he's wrong, but bring no facts at all the table. It's obvious to everyone here.
I'm sorry I don't have endless streams of obscure hockey data at my disposal. My bad.

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06-25-2013, 02:50 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I'm sorry I don't have endless streams of obscure hockey data at my disposal. My bad.
It is your bad. Nothing personal, but if all you can bring to the table is "he's a plug", then why even debate?

Surely you can do better than that if you have some basis in fact to support what you believe.

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06-25-2013, 02:50 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I'm sorry I don't have endless streams of obscure hockey data at my disposal. .
but... you do

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06-25-2013, 02:51 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
Regardless, Jiri Hudler, Curtis Glencross, Tomas Fleischmann, Viktor Stalberg, Radim Vrbata, Jiri Tlusty, Alex Burrows, and Michael Ryder are all comparable or better along with the Perrys/Kopitars/etc. Some of those players would be a pipe dream in a Miller swap, others a disappointment.
Two best comparables, though they're more physical. Read is younger though.

Stalberg lacks Read's hockey sense, Hudler/Fleischmann/Ryder are one-way offensive players. Tlusty/Vrbata could be products of their environments (Staal/Phoenix), or could be solid glue types. Neither's down situations came in great environments.

Read's an every-shift two-way forward, who's relied-upon-ness despite a lack of standout offensive production belies his team importance and his ability to consistently bring what he does well to the table despite linemates and situations. We need more players like that.

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06-25-2013, 02:51 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post

I like the idea of acquiring Read+ for Miller. Quite a bit, even. I just think the ESG argument and comparison to Vanek is disingenuous given his real value as a player.
I don't think anyone is trying to assert that Read is on the same level as Vanek. However, they do produce goals at a similar rate at ES. (Vanek is an elite PP producer, therein lies the major difference in offensive production.)

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06-25-2013, 02:53 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Two best comparables, though they're more physical. Read is younger though.

Stalberg lacks Read's hockey sense, Hudler/Fleischmann/Ryder are one-way offensive players. Tlusty/Vrbata could be products of their environments (Staal/Phoenix), or could be solid glue types. Neither's down situations came in great environments.

Read's an every-shift two-way forward, who's relied-upon-ness despite a lack of standout offensive production belies his team importance and his ability to consistently bring what he does well to the table despite linemates and situations. We need more players like that.
I like that

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