HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Souray: Does the good outweigh the bad?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-18-2006, 07:04 AM
  #26
beowulf
Poster of the Year!
 
beowulf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,844
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to beowulf
Getting a guy with a shot like his and the offence he brings from the point is not that easy so I would try and resign him and keep him as long as we do not have anyone that can do his job. The good does outweight the bad imo. I remeber before one of the games the tv guys where talking about how some players refuse to be on the ice during a Habs pp because they are afraid of his shot and domi gave the example of how last season a Souray shot broke mcAbes shin guard at the knee.

beowulf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 07:12 AM
  #27
GuloGulo
Registered User
 
GuloGulo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: trunkofacamaro
Country: Bahrain
Posts: 3,713
vCash: 500
Where is his stache? did he *gasp* become metrosexual?

GuloGulo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 07:17 AM
  #28
Rscorpio
Epic Meal Time!
 
Rscorpio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Santiago, Chile
Country: Chile
Posts: 2,821
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CLEGHORN View Post
I guess heart would be a better word. Alway's play's with ball's?

Hey ...I like to play with my balls

Back to topic ; We need a guy like Souray.


Last edited by Rscorpio: 10-18-2006 at 07:19 AM. Reason: I got balls
Rscorpio is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 07:50 AM
  #29
BadHabit
Registered User
 
BadHabit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,583
vCash: 500
This discussion has a very easy answer, and it's called the +/- stat.

Now I know I'm going to get, points don't mean everything and there is something to be said for his leadership, toughness, and whatever else you want to say about him. While it may be true that he is a tough defenseman, in the new NHL what does that really matter? Not as much as it used to that's for sure. Sure it's nice to have an enforcer or two around, but for the teams that are going to challenge for the Stanley Cup (like Buffalo), you have to ask yourself do you really need that? As for leadership, we saw how much of that this team has when Koivu went out.

Souray has proven time and time again that he is a defensive liability and he is first and foremost a defenseman. His main job is to keep the puck out of the net, and anyone who argues that should shake their head. Just look at each game this year and take away all the Souray brain cramps - each game would have ended much differently, and for the most part in our favour. Just look at his stats - he's a minus 3 already. Rivet who is also bad defensively in my opinion, is minus 2. Look at the worst plus minus last year, same two guys. They are too big, too slow, and make bad decisions - like checking someone at the blueline on a penalty kill... real smart.

Bottom line, no... he does not outweigh the bad. Constantly causing goals is not a good thing, especially when this team historically has a hard time scoring. His +/- shows he doesnt score enough points to make up for the ones he causes, and in the new NHL that toughness is not a pre-req for being a defenseman. Get someone else who can keep the puck out of the net.

My 2 cents.

BadHabit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 07:59 AM
  #30
coolguy21415
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 9,285
vCash: 500
You're clearly not aware that special teams don't count for +/-, and as such most of your argument is moot. All three of his goals this season were powerplay markers, not to mention being on the ice for others. +/- isn't the only stat to look at, and is certainly not the magic barometer of whether he's good or not you say it is.

Also, who would you replace him with? Please elaborate on who you'd pick up, while not messing up our cap, to play first-pairing minutes, and anchor our powerplay. Free agent defensemen don't come around too often, and cost way more than they're worth.

coolguy21415 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 08:02 AM
  #31
Tuggy
Registered User
 
Tuggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Saint John
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,058
vCash: 50
Souray is a valuable member of this team, both on and off the ice.

Tuggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 08:20 AM
  #32
Habber
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Saskatoon, Sask.
Posts: 2,030
vCash: 500
Couple of (good) things I've noticed about his game this year:

-His shot from the point has vastly improved. Last year he just let it buck full out every shot. Sometimes it hit the net, sometimes it didn't. Also took a long time to get it off. This year he seems to be concentrating on getting it off quicker and placing it better, even if he has to sacrifice some speed. (see his first goal last night)

-His one on one play is improving (slowly). He's starting to back off guys one-on-one instead of committing and (usually) missing them. Sometimes he backs off too far, but at least you can see some improvement and a willingness to learn. No doubt having Jarvis around helps.

Habber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 08:21 AM
  #33
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
BadHabit,I'd use Mike8's arguemnet about +/-, but Souray does get in trouble.

My thinking is that yeah, he has weaknesses. His penalties for defending a teammate, or himself, while we like to see it, he has to understand the game situation better. The 1st one last night, no problem, the one with Phaneuf, just isn't smart. You can make your point without hurting your team, and that play was a case in point.

His pairing plays tough minutes. They have trouble when the play is wide open. Carbo/Jarvis seem intent on using them in key situations. They don't have a problem in set situations, on the pk, last minute, when the odd man rush doesn't come into play. I hope they find a way of insulating them from the Briere's and Bergeron's of the league, the quick shifty types. Obviously the staff trusts them, or at least considers them the best option.

Souray seems to be getting beat in tight along the boards, he doesn't seem able to get good body position, something I think Rivet is good at. I don't know, maybe this is something that can be improved, thru coaching.


I read a post that said if we traded him, it would be for a similar player. OK, so why deal him ?

I believe this team is 2 players from being really good. A lead dog on D, and one more C. They can be a strong team without these things, as good team D is always preferable than a big name, imo. You won't improve on D by dealing an impending ufa for a D man. You'd have to make a bigger deal, move salary, disrupt chemistry etc. You'd be breaking up a team that plays as a team right now.

looking ahead at the D situation is more complicated. I think they start with a budget, then figure out how our 3 guys fit, well 4 if you count JN.

I'm sure that when Bouillon returns, the talk or rumours will heat up, Souray for the best forward we can imagine. Keep in mind that in the staff's opinion, Bouillon's year may be a write off. Back by Christmas, a possibly long adaptation period, who knows how Dandy will recover, I lean towards working with what we have.

You either get new players or get your players to play better, I think Gainey said that, makes sense to me.

mcphee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 08:25 AM
  #34
Mike8
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,093
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
This discussion has a very easy answer, and it's called the +/- stat.
Nonsense. Special teams is where it's at in the new NHL, and Souray is the team's best special teams defenseman. This does not factor into your +/- statistic, which is inherently flawed as it is.

FYI: Many, many Selke winners have gone through -20-30 seasons. Does that mean they suddenly became bad defensively? No. It means they play quality minutes against the opposition's top players, and the top opponents score more than their defensive unit does; which is a natural 'phenomena', in most instances.

Mike8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 08:29 AM
  #35
Mike8
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,093
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
His pairing plays tough minutes. They have trouble when the play is wide open. Carbo/Jarvis seem intent on using them in key situations. They don't have a problem in set situations, on the pk, last minute, when the odd man rush doesn't come into play. I hope they find a way of insulating them from the Briere's and Bergeron's of the league, the quick shifty types. Obviously the staff trusts them, or at least considers them the best option.
Souray's 5 on 5 minutes have been diminishing since the Ottawa game. I believe he played the fewest five on five minutes of any defenseman last night, which is quite something considering the injuries to the defense.

I didn't see Souray make any major blunder last night. He had trouble moving the puck on a couple of occasions behind the net, but nothing serious. And he was a huge asset on special teams (strong on both PP and PK). Plus, what he added in intimidation and team toughness was invaluable in a game like last night's where I felt Montreal not only matched, but wound up exceeding Calgary physically (much to MTL's detriment penalty-wise).

So, last night was a game I thought Souray played extremely well and was a presence, and the coaching staff made the necessary adjustments in handling Souray's ice-time to make him as good as he can be.


On another note: Komisarek was a beast last night.


EDIT: I forgot Souray's major blunder came on that Kobasew goal, where Souray went towards the point to give Phaneuf another smack. That was stupid.


Last edited by Mike8: 10-18-2006 at 08:40 AM.
Mike8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 08:33 AM
  #36
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 46,962
vCash: 500
Bottom point, never ask those types of questions after either an horrific performance or a great one.....It doesn't do justice to the analysis you can make of it. Before yesterday's game, most of us wanted him gone and now look what 2 goals can do for a total change of opinion.

Should be evaluate more than on one game, bad or great....

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 08:34 AM
  #37
Mike8
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,093
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Bottom point, never ask those types of questions after either an horrific performance or a great one.....It doesn't do justice to the analysis you can make of it. Before yesterday's game, most of us wanted him gone and now look what 2 goals can do for a total change of opinion.

Should be evaluate more than on one game, bad or great....
Then go back and check the previous threads about Souray. There's been one after every game; even his atrocious ones. Most people here have been consistent in their thoughts about him.

Mike8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 08:35 AM
  #38
coolguy21415
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 9,285
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Bottom point, never ask those types of questions after either an horrific performance or a great one.....It doesn't do justice to the analysis you can make of it. Before yesterday's game, most of us wanted him gone and now look what 2 goals can do for a total change of opinion.

Should be evaluate more than on one game, bad or great....
I think Souray's a fantastic defenseman (for what he gets paid) regardless of last night. He consistently chips in on the PP, and is great on the PK, and as Mike8 pointed out, special teams is where it's at in the "new NHL".

coolguy21415 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 08:37 AM
  #39
coolguy21415
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 9,285
vCash: 500
Also, I thought I'd add that now that Souray has 3 goals in 5 games on the PP, teams will have to play the point more, and that will open up room for Kovalev on the doorstep, and Koivu and Higgins in front of the net. All in all last night's performance from Souray will do more for us than winning just that game.

coolguy21415 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 08:39 AM
  #40
Drive425
Registered User
 
Drive425's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St Louis Du Haha
Country: Malta
Posts: 1,933
vCash: 500
Don't go making Souray out to be a criminal for the occsasional Brisebois highlights he provides. I think all of the Habs defence have served up some juicy pucks to the opposition. We've seen them from Markov, Souray, Dandy, Niminaa, Rivet and Komi so no one is perfect!

Souray has leadership, toughness, a bomb of a shot and the occasional brain fart. You won't replace Souray, not now or at the trade deadline. If he is healthy this year, he will demand 4-5 million per season when he is a ufa next season.

Too bad the Habs won't be able to keep him for that money...

Drive425 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 08:54 AM
  #41
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
On another note: Komisarek was a beast last night.


EDIT: I forgot Souray's major blunder came on that Kobasew goal, where Souray went towards the point to give Phaneuf another smack. That was stupid.
One play in the 3rd, stood out for me. Komisarek blocked a pass with his stick extended on the backhand, he was strong enough to control it, recognize his space and time and skate it out of the zone. He just wasn't getting in position and confident enough to make those plays in the past. The big hits are nice but more often than not, the big belters take themselves out of the play. He seems to 'get it' now. He isn't a guy we praise for showing progress anymore, he's one of the guys the staff can count on. Great to see, it was a while in coming.

mcphee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 08:59 AM
  #42
Mike8
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,093
vCash: 500
Yeah, that was a fantastic play that stood out for me as well.

I absolutely loved how Komisarek played on the PK where he lost his stick.

One area of Komisarek's play that I have a problem with is that, on rare occasions, he dives. It's painfully obvious diving, and it just looks wrong to have a big guy, supposedly a character and team-player, dive. I hope he eliminates that from his game altogether.

On the whole though, I think he's on the verge of becoming a big time minute-eater.

Mike8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 09:17 AM
  #43
FerrisRox
Registered User
 
FerrisRox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,038
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Nonsense. Special teams is where it's at in the new NHL, and Souray is the team's best special teams defenseman. This does not factor into your +/- statistic, which is inherently flawed as it is.

FYI: Many, many Selke winners have gone through -20-30 seasons. Does that mean they suddenly became bad defensively? No. It means they play quality minutes against the opposition's top players, and the top opponents score more than their defensive unit does; which is a natural 'phenomena', in most instances.
Can you name just some of the many many Selke winners with the -20 and -30 seasons?

FerrisRox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 09:33 AM
  #44
Mike8
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,093
vCash: 500
Sure. Though I suspect I exaggerated, the point remains regardless that many strong defensive players and Selke winners fluctuate dozens of +/- points from year-to-year.


Madden: -7 after being a +24 a few seasons prior. Does this mean his defense became that much worse?

Lehtinen: +39 to a 0. Did his defensive abilities simply disappear, or is this indicative of the fact that +/- has nothing to do with defensive play?

Peca: +19 to -4.

Draper's only had 3 seasons with more than a +6. This is on a high-powered juggernaut in Detroit. Yet he's widely been considered Detroit's best defensive forward over the last decade. Hmm.

Mike8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 10:09 AM
  #45
Carbo N8
Registered User
 
Carbo N8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 941
vCash: 500
Sheldon brings too much in terms of leadership, physical respect & power play shot as many posters have already stated, but, as well, if you turn him into a power play specialist & sit him on the bench for most of the game, he will never re-sign with Montreal in the off-season.

You can't do that with a veteran leader on your team & expect him to want to stay with the team.

Carbo N8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 10:22 AM
  #46
BadHabit
Registered User
 
BadHabit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,583
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
You're clearly not aware that special teams don't count for +/-, and as such most of your argument is moot. All three of his goals this season were powerplay markers, not to mention being on the ice for others. +/- isn't the only stat to look at, and is certainly not the magic barometer of whether he's good or not you say it is.

Also, who would you replace him with? Please elaborate on who you'd pick up, while not messing up our cap, to play first-pairing minutes, and anchor our powerplay. Free agent defensemen don't come around too often, and cost way more than they're worth.
Actually I am aware, and I am also aware this works both ways. We don't get to see his minus after checking someone at the blueline, getting out of position and someone coming in to score.

If you look at the facts on nhl.com, 5v5 icetime per game for a dman is typically close to double the amount of time of PP and PK time per game combined. If this is the case, wouldn't it be logical to assume that the +/- stat is actually somewhat important since that is where the majority of your play is? Great, you're a defenseman and you get points on the powerplay. To me, I'd rather have a good defensive 5v5 defenseman any day of the week than to have a defensive liability for most of the time he is playing. Think about it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Besides, like a lot of Ryder bashers said on this board - anyone can score on the PP when they are put out there all the time. They were concerned about his 5v5 play. Amazing how things change when it suits their argument.

As for who would we pick up? Not sure to tell you the truth, you are right - defensemen are scarce and are worth a lot of money. There is a reason for this however and if you think you are smarter than 30 GM's in the league then maybe you should apply. GOOD defensemen are the 2nd most important thing on your team, next to a goalie. That is why they are paid the premium amount and why GM's don't let them go when they have them. They are worth every dime that is paid to them and the GM's know it. Suffice to say however, 2.4 million per should be able to get you a half decent stay at home defensemen if he should come up. Also, there is the possibility of trading that has to be considered.

I don't pretend to know all the answers, but one thing I do know is that Souray is terrible in a defensive situation. Sure he has a shot, sure he is physical, and maybe he'll score 30-40 points this year - but he constantly causes problems in his own end when he is on the ice, especially when paired with Rivet. One thing that hasn't even been brought up is the amount of turnovers and failed clearing attempts that don't lead to a goal being scored, but keeps the pressure in the Canadiens zone when they could be at the other end of the ice. Watch the games and you will see. At the end of the day, I am a "build the team from the net out" type of guy and my idea of a defenseman is defense first, scoring optional. That's what the forwards are for. Keep the puck out of harms way and I'll be happy. And with the new NHL, defenseman are even more important than ever before.

Again, my 2 cents.

BadHabit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 10:30 AM
  #47
Blind Gardien
Global Moderator
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 19,331
vCash: 500
Souray is like Jovanovski and McCabe IMO. If you get too caught up in picking apart his play, sure you find faults that basically boil down to poor defensive decision-making. It's not that he's abominably slow or a poor skater... he's actually decent enough compared to the truly abominable skaters on D in the league... it's just that he makes mistakes and doesn't have ways to recover for himself. But if he gets on the right roll with the right partner, he can really start to look special, which basically is what has happened to McCabe and landed him such a fat contract and 30+ minutes per night.

We've already had the debate about who the best partner for Souray is... and the partnership with Rivet might have come out of that debate as the best overall option for us from a set of non-ideal alternatives... but the bottom line is that we simply haven't found a truly top-notch complementary guy for him. I bet if we had one, a lot of the Souray bashing would go away as some number of his miscues became masked. And if that happened, then suddenly a guy who is already renowned for his PP and physical/character attributes might actually price himself right off our team! I don't pay enough attention to opposing players anymore to have any perfect solutions to suggest, but some names I'd toss around are Willie Mitchell, Mattias Ohlund on the more mobile side, or even some really smart no-nonsense pure stay-at-homers like Jay McKee or Rhett Warrener. (Mitchell and McKee got scary contracts this summer, alas). Ok, now probably the people who do pay attention will tell me they all play LD too. On the other hand, how much does it matter which side *Souray* himself plays on? He's confused enough on LD... would it make much difference if you put him on the right side? Then of course, you could even pair him with Markov. Ok, now I'm digging myself too much of a hole from what started as a relatively simple premise. But the bottom line is that I think Souray is indeed an extremely valuable asset for our team.

Blind Gardien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 10:34 AM
  #48
BadHabit
Registered User
 
BadHabit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,583
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Sure. Though I suspect I exaggerated, the point remains regardless that many strong defensive players and Selke winners fluctuate dozens of +/- points from year-to-year.


Madden: -7 after being a +24 a few seasons prior. Does this mean his defense became that much worse?

Lehtinen: +39 to a 0. Did his defensive abilities simply disappear, or is this indicative of the fact that +/- has nothing to do with defensive play?

Peca: +19 to -4.

Draper's only had 3 seasons with more than a +6. This is on a high-powered juggernaut in Detroit. Yet he's widely been considered Detroit's best defensive forward over the last decade. Hmm.

Hmmmm... Madden went from a 24 to a -7 over a FEW years because his team got worse. Didn't they win the Stanley Cup the year before and got to the final during that +24 year? Hmmmm...

Hmmm... Lehtinen. He lead his team with scoring that year of the +39. The next year he didn't play a full season. Anyhow, I thought we were talking about defensive players? And why are we talking about forwards?

Hmmm... Peca. He finished third on his team with 60 points on the +19 year, and was injured and didn't play a full season on the -4 year. See above.

Hmm... Draper. 4 seasons actually over + 6. What you didn't mention were numbers as high as 26, 22, and 17. Those high numbers show what exactly I what I am saying actually.

These people you have made as examples, they are all forwards. This is not a fair comparison as their ice time differs and what times they would be used differs as well. Comparing apples and oranges. If you want to impress me, find a well known defensive defenseman who has a -10 or higher rating.

Are we done here?

BadHabit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 10:36 AM
  #49
BadHabit
Registered User
 
BadHabit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,583
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Souray is like Jovanovski and McCabe IMO. If you get too caught up in picking apart his play, sure you find faults that basically boil down to poor defensive decision-making. It's not that he's abominably slow or a poor skater... he's actually decent enough compared to the truly abominable skaters on D in the league... it's just that he makes mistakes and doesn't have ways to recover for himself. But if he gets on the right roll with the right partner, he can really start to look special, which basically is what has happened to McCabe and landed him such a fat contract and 30+ minutes per night.

We've already had the debate about who the best partner for Souray is... and the partnership with Rivet might have come out of that debate as the best overall option for us from a set of non-ideal alternatives... but the bottom line is that we simply haven't found a truly top-notch complementary guy for him. I bet if we had one, a lot of the Souray bashing would go away as some number of his miscues became masked. And if that happened, then suddenly a guy who is already renowned for his PP and physical/character attributes might actually price himself right off our team! I don't pay enough attention to opposing players anymore to have any perfect solutions to suggest, but some names I'd toss around are Willie Mitchell, Mattias Ohlund on the more mobile side, or even some really smart no-nonsense pure stay-at-homers like Jay McKee or Rhett Warrener. (Mitchell and McKee got scary contracts this summer, alas). Ok, now probably the people who do pay attention will tell me they all play LD too. On the other hand, how much does it matter which side *Souray* himself plays on? He's confused enough on LD... would it make much difference if you put him on the right side? Then of course, you could even pair him with Markov. Ok, now I'm digging myself too much of a hole from what started as a relatively simple premise. But the bottom line is that I think Souray is indeed an extremely valuable asset for our team.
You know, I agree with what you said somewhat. I found his game improved dramatically when not paired with Rivet - they just don't seem to work well together. I just find that when those two play together, they always seem to be on the ice when the other team scores and they have just made a mistake. Watch for it and you will be surprised.

Split them up, and it might be better for everyone.

BadHabit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-18-2006, 10:41 AM
  #50
KaptainKourage*
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: St-Georges de Beauce
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,151
vCash: 500
Yeah. And I dont even watch the game.


We Need Sheldon

KaptainKourage* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:55 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.