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Bryz buyout - Miller to Flyers?

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Old
06-25-2013, 02:55 PM
  #76
stokes84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogilny 89 View Post
It is your bad. Nothing personal, but if all you can bring to the table is "he's a plug", then why even debate?

Surely you can do better than that if you have some basis in fact to support what you believe.
I've watched him play. A lot. Fact. I question if others really have. This isn't baseball.

This is the guy that the coach says to, if you slack of for a minute, you'll be in the minors. If that's what you want, go for it. After all, ES Goals.

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06-25-2013, 02:58 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I've watched him play. A lot. Fact. I question if others really have. This isn't baseball.
It's a fact that he produces at a high level at ES, despite having an O-zone start% of under 50% over the past two seasons. You act like this stuff is voodoo. He can also play against good competition. He can be used on a checking line, or as the defensively responsible forward on a scoring line.

I'd argue we have one of the worst defensive forward corps in the league, if not the very worst, and we should be tripping over ourselves to add guys like Read to this team, especially for a goaltender who probably won't be here beyond next season.

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06-25-2013, 03:04 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I've watched him play. A lot. Fact. I question if others really have. This isn't baseball.

This is the guy that the coach says to, if you slack of for a minute, you'll be in the minors. If that's what you want, go for it. After all, ES Goals.
Advanced stats are here for a reason. They help us quantify a player's actual performance in a sport where the eyeball test has reigned supreme.

Analogies to minor league baseball and calling players "plugs" without any supporting evidence adds nothing to the converation.

Still waiting for those facts. Pehaps you'd like to comment on the player's chin? He has quite the jawline I hear.

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06-25-2013, 03:06 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Two best comparables, though they're more physical. Read is younger though.

Stalberg lacks Read's hockey sense, Hudler/Fleischmann/Ryder are one-way offensive players. Tlusty/Vrbata could be products of their environments (Staal/Phoenix), or could be solid glue types. Neither's down situations came in great environments.

Read's an every-shift two-way forward, who's relied-upon-ness despite a lack of standout offensive production belies his team importance and his ability to consistently bring what he does well to the table despite linemates and situations. We need more players like that.
perfectly stated. i'll double down on your statement

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06-25-2013, 03:08 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I've watched him play. A lot. Fact. I question if others really have. This isn't baseball.

This is the guy that the coach says to, if you slack of for a minute, you'll be in the minors. If that's what you want, go for it. After all, ES Goals.
Based on this thread, i think a lot of people are going to dispute it...

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06-25-2013, 03:11 PM
  #81
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You guys know Darcy always makes the trade no one sees coming so we can all cross Matt Read of the list of potential return players in a Miller trade.

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06-25-2013, 03:12 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogilny 89 View Post
Advanced stats are here for a reason. They help us quantify a player's actual performance in a sport where the eyeball test has reigned supreme.

Analogies to minor league baseball and calling players "plugs" without any supporting evidence adds nothing to the converation.

Still waiting for those facts. Pehaps you'd like to comment on the player's chin? He has quite the jawline I hear.
Who said anything about minor league baseball?

Why is Nathan MacKinnon going to get drafted before Drouin? Same team, Drouin scored a lot more. There is a reason the eyeball test still reigns supreme. The sport is subjective. If it were all about stats, you'd have people telling you Matt Read is better than Vanek, and how stupid would that be?

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06-25-2013, 03:14 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Deevo View Post
I can't believe the amount of Flyers fans on the Flyers board who want nothing to do with Ryan Miller. Maybe I'm just a biased Sabres fan, but there are few goalies in the NHL who I'd rather have between the pipes..
The Flyers have lit him up a number of times lately, I suspect that plays into it.

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Originally Posted by AdamsApple View Post
Having watched both players, I think Flynn/Read is an apt comparison. considering the differing contexts, I don't think the stats are different enough to warrant the shocked response the comparison received. The main difference is that one of them plays for a team whose fans err on the side of undervaluing all their players and the other plays for a team whose fans do the opposite.

And I agree that i'd hope for a better return for Miller, not necessarily value wise, but something maybe a little less redundant. I think i'd just ask for the 11th pick. But if Read is the best we could do, then i'd be glad to have him.

I also still don't agree that Miller and/or Vanek are definitely not coming back. Things appear that way, but much much crazier things have happened than two players deciding not to uproot their lives to stay with a strong organization.
I doubt Miller and 16 gets 11. Regier should ask, certainly, hell -- ask for 11 and Read for Miller and 16. If that happened, I will do virtual handstands, mostly because doing a real one will likely lead to me falling on my head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Two best comparables, though they're more physical. Read is younger though.

Stalberg lacks Read's hockey sense, Hudler/Fleischmann/Ryder are one-way offensive players. Tlusty/Vrbata could be products of their environments (Staal/Phoenix), or could be solid glue types. Neither's down situations came in great environments.

Read's an every-shift two-way forward, who's relied-upon-ness despite a lack of standout offensive production belies his team importance and his ability to consistently bring what he does well to the table despite linemates and situations. We need more players like that.
Excellent take on Read's game. He's akin to Hecht in Hecht's prime (watch the negative reactions now!) when he regularly threw up the ESP. He isn't flashy but he is effective.

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06-25-2013, 03:15 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Who said anything about minor league baseball?

Why is Nathan MacKinnon going to get drafted before Drouin? Same team, Drouin scored a lot more. There is a reason the eyeball test still reigns supreme. The sport is subjective. If it were all about stats, you'd have people telling you Matt Read is better than Vanek, and how stupid would that be?
Positional value of center vs wing. Better two-way player. MacKinnon nearly a 2014 draft eligible yet still produced the way he did. Many think he has the higher ceiling. And on and on...

The Read v. Vanek innuendo can stop now--nobody is biting on that strawman, and nobody is asserting that Read is better than Vanek.

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06-25-2013, 03:17 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
The Flyers have lit him up a number of times lately, I suspect that plays into it.



I doubt Miller and 16 gets 11. Regier should ask, certainly, hell -- ask for 11 and Read for Miller and 16. If that happened, I will do virtual handstands, mostly because doing a real one will likely lead to me falling on my head.



Excellent take on Read's game. He's akin to Hecht in Hecht's prime (watch the negative reactions now!) when he regularly threw up the ESP. He isn't flashy but he is effective.
The reverse Leino effect if you will

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06-25-2013, 03:21 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
The reverse Leino effect if you will
Exactly. Granted, if they look at his numbers against some of the Flyers Eastern competition, doubt may creep in. He's owned Boston and Toronto historically (riffing off the top of my head). *shrug* Those fans are more than happy to see him leave Buffalo.

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06-25-2013, 03:28 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
excellent skaters, previously used in shut down situations.... failed at it, moved to lesser roles.

Do they go on a pairing together?
Do you split them, and neither one can play the shutdown role?

I don't see Myers/Coburn fitting....
I would imagine Rolston keeps Myers/Ehrhoff together to start next season which would put Coburn with Sekera.


That would put Weber/XXX on the bottom pairing. That would create a battle between Pysyk, Rudy and McNabb for the 6th and 7th spots with the loser heading to Rochester.

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06-25-2013, 03:30 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Who said anything about minor league baseball?

Why is Nathan MacKinnon going to get drafted before Drouin? Same team, Drouin scored a lot more. There is a reason the eyeball test still reigns supreme. The sport is subjective. If it were all about stats, you'd have people telling you Matt Read is better than Vanek, and how stupid would that be?
you might be interested to know:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...article619847/

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl...145103126.html

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06-25-2013, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I would imagine Rolston keeps Myers/Ehrhoff together to start next season which would put Coburn with Sekera.


That would put Weber/XXX on the bottom pairing. That would create a battle between Pysyk, Rudy and McNabb for the 6th and 7th spots with the loser heading to Rochester.
which pair takes the "difficult" shifts?

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06-25-2013, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
The Flyers have lit him up a number of times lately, I suspect that plays into it.



I doubt Miller and 16 gets 11. Regier should ask, certainly, hell -- ask for 11 and Read for Miller and 16. If that happened, I will do virtual handstands, mostly because doing a real one will likely lead to me falling on my head.



Excellent take on Read's game. He's akin to Hecht in Hecht's prime (watch the negative reactions now!) when he regularly threw up the ESP. He isn't flashy but he is effective.
The concern I have with Read is he a UFA in 2014. If I am going to trade for a one yr rental my first choice would be Stastny.

I think Miller would get a 2nd + a player. the 2nd can be substituted by flipping 16 and 11.

Thoughts????


Miller, Sekera, 16th FOR Couturier, 11th

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06-25-2013, 03:35 PM
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The concern I have with Read is he a UFA in 2014. If I am going to trade for a one yr rental my first choice would be Stastny.

I think Miller would get a 2nd + a player. the 2nd can be substituted by flipping 16 and 11.

Thoughts????


Miller, Sekera, 16th FOR Couturier, 11th
Read can be re-signed rather easily.

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06-25-2013, 03:35 PM
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which pair takes the "difficult" shifts?
Based on Rolston's use at the end of last season that would be Myers/Hoff

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06-25-2013, 03:42 PM
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Read can be re-signed rather easily.
that's my belief as well... we aren't talking about a guy who is going to turn down a few million a year, to break the bank in free agency in 12 months. he'll take the money now...

3 year extension at 3.0-3.5 per year?

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06-25-2013, 03:43 PM
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Based on Rolston's use at the end of last season that would be Myers/Hoff
I hope we draft Ristolainen

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06-25-2013, 03:44 PM
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I could do without Read.

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06-25-2013, 03:47 PM
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I hope we draft Ristolainen
We can still do that you know

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06-25-2013, 03:49 PM
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I'd want a 2nd, as well. And before people start screaming that isn't enough, Read has 30 ES goals over the last two seasons. Here is the exhaustive list of Buffalo Sabres who've had more than him over that same period:

Jason Pominville: 34

That's it. The end. Vanek had 27. Hodgson had 24 between Buffalo and Vancouver. Stafford had 23. Ennis had 21. Read can produce goals at ES, he's a good skater, and he plays a good two-way game. They should bring him into the fold and work on getting him extended.


Read had 1.5 NHL seasons.....too little data to even measure him.

Who was his center?

I look at him as a similar measuring stick to Clarke MacArthur. Paille in his first year in Buffalo has 19 goals.

My opinion of Read is Meehhh....he isnt a tem savior. I would rather get yournger players and draft picks over him.


As for the "plug" comment by Stokes...I agree if I understand his internt. He is a product of the environment and who you play with and not necessarily skills he brings to the table. a dime a dozen type of player every team has in their system. Thus in a trade, a likely drop off in production.

Simlar opinion of James Neal---his numbers are good because of who he plays with.

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06-25-2013, 03:52 PM
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My opinion of Read is Meehhh....he isnt a tem savior. I would rather get yournger players and draft picks over him.
My issue here is that I don't think we'll get the team savior from any possible Miller trade. That's when I start considering a player like Read.

I'd love to be wrong, but there are just so few options for Miller.

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06-25-2013, 03:56 PM
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Read had 1.5 NHL seasons.....too little data to even measure him.

Who was his center?

I look at him as a similar measuring stick to Clarke MacArthur. Paille in his first year in Buffalo has 19 goals.

My opinion of Read is Meehhh....he isnt a tem savior. I would rather get yournger players and draft picks over him.


he was deployed on all 3 top lines. He played a lot with Couturier in the shut down role, when others were struggling he moved to a top line role for some time with Giroux, and then finished the season playing more 2nd line situations with Schenn.

He's versatile... but you already knew that, since you are pretty "meh" on him, even though you weren't aware of who he played with/how he was used.

he got less than 50% starts in the Ozone, but still was a higher end ES goal scorer

he faced top QOC, because he was deployed defensively

he is not a dime a dozen player... not in today's market, and today's NHLer

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06-25-2013, 03:59 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Mogilny 89 View Post
My issue here is that I don't think we'll get the team savior from any possible Miller trade. That's when I start considering a player like Read.

I'd love to be wrong, but there are just so few options for Miller.
I definitely agree we're unlikely to get a team saver from Miller straight up, but we don't need to in order to parlay it into better futures, and if ever there were a draft to try and get the next superstar, this is it.

So something *around* Miller and 38 for 11, then 11 and 8 for 4.

I know Darcy has said he gives up, but I doubt that this is anything close to "impossible." Adjust the value if you must.

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